Critique My Organic Regimen Please...

[krunchbubble]

Yes, I grow mostly organic! But shhhh, dont tell anyone...I have a reputation to uphold!

Just want to know if im missing anything or if this is complete enough...

Pure Blend Pro Bloom @ 15ml gal
Cal Mag @ 2.5 ml gal
Protect @ 1.5 ml gal
Sweet @ 2ml gal
Liquid Karma @ 1/2 ml gal

Was thinking of adding Liquid Koolbloom for the P and K?

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

PBP isnt organic.

 

[hush]

^ What he said.

 

[krunchbubble]

Didn't read the first sentence?

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

Didn't read the first sentence?

Didn't have to I read the title [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Critique My Organic Regimen Please"[/FONT]

 

[Hydropimp]

@ krunch do you get better flavor than the h&g?

 

[rasputin]

I've seen worse, Krunch. I wouldn't call it 'mainly organic', though. It's semi-organic (using that loosely) in some areas and not at all in others.

PBP gets half credit. It is partly organic, partly synthetic. Potassium carbonate is approved for organic farming so it's not as bad as it appears but the real problem is the quality and quantity of their supposed organic inputs. The label says kelp, the MSDS says seaweed extract. To most people its all the same, which is why they conveniently use kelp on the label but specify its only SW extract in the MSDS but they ain't the same. Not to mention, what kind of kelp did they use? Shit like that makes me question other things they say it has. They likely use some kind of stabilizer to keep the bat shit milkshake from exploding on the shelf but don't disclose what it is. Boooo.

CalMag, uh no. Iron EDTA. 'nuff said.

ProTekt, like Sweet, is bottled mineral water. Both minerals used are approved for organic cultivation. Just fyi, AgSil16H is a suitable replacement for ProTekt if you don't mind mixing your own nutes up.

Sweet is magnesium sulfate aka Epsom salts. Get a bag at the local drug store for 5 bucks. You can make hundreds of gallons of your own Sweet with that one bag. That's sweet.

Liquid Karma is expensive shit water too weak to make a damn bit of a difference to anything it touches. You can do better.

 

[krunchbubble]

^ What he said.

PBP isnt organic.

I've seen worse, Krunch. I wouldn't call it 'mainly organic', though. It's semi-organic (using that loosely) in some areas and not at all in others.

PBP gets half credit. It is partly organic, partly synthetic. Potassium carbonate is approved for organic farming so it's not as bad as it appears but the real problem is the quality and quantity of their supposed organic inputs. The label says kelp, the MSDS says seaweed extract. To most people its all the same, which is why they conveniently use kelp on the label but specify its only SW extract in the MSDS but they ain't the same. Not to mention, what kind of kelp did they use? Shit like that makes me question other things they say it has. They likely use some kind of stabilizer to keep the bat shit milkshake from exploding on the shelf but don't disclose what it is. Boooo.

CalMag, uh no. Iron EDTA. 'nuff said.

ProTekt, like Sweet, are minerals. They can be neither inorganic or organic. They are also both approved for organic cultivation. AgSil16H is a suitable replacement for ProTekt if you don't mind mixing your own nutes up.

Sweet is magnesium sulfate aka Epsom salts. Get a bag at the local drug store for 5 bucks. You can make hundreds of gallons of your own Sweet with that one bag. That's sweet.

Liquid Karma is expensive shit water too weak to make a damn bit of a difference to anything it touches. You can do better.

What would YOU recommend?

I got 7 lb's off 4k my first run with these nutes...

Just want simplicity...

 

[rasputin]

Well, what am I recommending for? A big commercial op? A small op? A headstash grow? Or do you just mean, what bottled organic nute do I recommend?

How organic are you trying to be? Is it for your own amusement or are you trying to position yourself/your grow for future certification? Lots of variables before I can really recommend anything that is even halfway intelligent.

7 lbs off 4K... that's the important part, all things considered. No? I wouldn't worry too much about being 100% organic man provided it isn't a particular requirement/goal.

 

[holystomata]

I've seen worse, Krunch. I wouldn't call it 'mainly organic', though. It's semi-organic (using that loosely) in some areas and not at all in others.

PBP gets half credit. It is partly organic, partly synthetic. Potassium carbonate is approved for organic farming so it's not as bad as it appears but the real problem is the quality and quantity of their supposed organic inputs. The label says kelp, the MSDS says seaweed extract. To most people its all the same, which is why they conveniently use kelp on the label but specify its only SW extract in the MSDS but they ain't the same. Not to mention, what kind of kelp did they use? Shit like that makes me question other things they say it has. They likely use some kind of stabilizer to keep the bat shit milkshake from exploding on the shelf but don't disclose what it is. Boooo.

CalMag, uh no. Iron EDTA. 'nuff said.

ProTekt, like Sweet, is bottled mineral water. Both minerals used are approved for organic cultivation. Just fyi, AgSil16H is a suitable replacement for ProTekt if you don't mind mixing your own nutes up.

Sweet is magnesium sulfate aka Epsom salts. Get a bag at the local drug store for 5 bucks. You can make hundreds of gallons of your own Sweet with that one bag. That's sweet.

Liquid Karma is expensive shit water too weak to make a damn bit of a difference to anything it touches. You can do better.

Iron EDTA is a chelating agent and iron source but what does it have to do with Ca or Mg?

A general question: doesn't using organic amendments increase the heavy metal concentrations (Arsenic, lead, etc) over pure synthetic? Seems a pretty negative tradeoff for just getting to call your stuff organic.

 

[megayields]

Krunch;

Do you use any beneficial microbes?

Just wondering?

 

[rasputin]

Iron EDTA is a chelating agent and iron source but what does it have to do with Ca or Mg?

I'm guessing you have no idea what EDTA is. Otherwise, you wouldn't suggest it is just a chelating agent.

As for what it has to do with Cal-Mag, Krunch asked about his organic feeding program and I pointed out Cal-Mag is not organic. I know, the thread is long and you missed a few pages.

Most studies on chelate-induced phytoextraction have focused on EDTA-mediated Pb phytoextraction. But EDTA and the formed EDTA-Pb complexes have low biodegradability and high solubility in soil, resulting in an elevated risk of adverse environmental effects. EDDS is an easily biodegradable chelating agent that has recently been proposed as an environmentally sound alternative to EDTA.

Wait, what? How can that be? EDTA isn't environmentally sound? But it's only a chelating agent... right, holystomata?

Consequently, a greenhouse experiment, using a completely randomized factorial design with four replications, was carried out to compare the potential of EDTA and EDDS for chelate-induced Pb phytoextraction with Cynara cardunculus, as well as to investigate the toxicity of these two chelates to both cardoon plants and soil microorganisms. The effects of chelate addition on soil microbial communities were studied through the determination of a variety of biological indicators of soil quality such as soil enzyme activities, basal and substrate-induced respiration, potentially mineralizable nitrogen, and community level physiological profiles. EDTA was much more efficient than EDDS for the enhancement of root Pb uptake and root-to-shoot Pb translocation. In a soil polluted with 5000 mg Pb kg(-1), as a result of the addition of 1 g EDTA kg(-1) soil, a value of 1332 mg Pb kg(-1) DW shoot was obtained. EDDS application resulted in a shoot Pb accumulation of only 310 mg kg(-1)DW. Plants treated with EDDS showed lower values of biomass than those treated with EDTA. EDDS proved to be rapidly degraded, and less toxic to the soil microbial community in control non-polluted soils. Pb-polluted EDDS-treated soils showed significantly higher values of basal and substrate-induced respiration than those treated with EDTA. Although EDDS had a lower capacity to enhance Pb phytoextraction than EDTA, it has the advantage of rapid biodegradation.

Sounds like good stuff. Just a chelating agent, huh? Why should I be using this, holystomata? To kill microbes? The ones that feed the plants? Right, OK. Then you need to introduce synthetic fertilizers because the soil microbes have all been killed by the EDTA. And thus in a nut shell about EDTA and the slippery slope of trying to kill everything to grow the prettiest little peaches you ever did see, you can see the vicious cycle that plagues the American farmer, among many others throughout the world, to this day.

A general question: doesn't using organic amendments increase the heavy metal concentrations (Arsenic, lead, etc) over pure synthetic? Seems a pretty negative tradeoff for just getting to call your stuff organic.

Two words: humic acid.

Short of that, you could always, oh I don't know, pay attention to what you put into your soil and avoid amendments that are high in heavy metals? Is that possible or are all soil growers in your world doomed?

 

[megayields]

RE> holystomata?.....ok that made me laugh......

 

[krunchbubble]

Rasputin makes me want to crawl into a ball, cry and forget about the word organic...

 

[Weird]

it is a transitional method which means hybrid of organic and synthetic

I used to grow transitionally and its a good way to incorporate organic components while maintaining control over feeding as if it were a traditional synth grow

I used pure blend original and a synthetic flowering booster such as hydroplex with a benies package and liquid karma

it works well and is a great way to see what some of the differences are between organic and synthetic without having to go the full monty to amended soil.

i really really strongly suggest you add beneficials even if you need to add them every feed ( I used to add a lil aquashield in between feeds).

*** word to the wise, benies help plants make more effective use of nutrients keep that in mind when feeding

you should be able to see the difference beneficials make and they should reduce the need to address pests and pathogens via chemicals

my guess is your not using soil, but if you were, I would suggest promix with some EWC using the same regime you shared, and if you were to add some neem meal (or neem meal tea) to that and you will have some very healthy mite.mold.pm resistance maintenance free plants

you dont need to run true organics to get he same benefit and lose the need to use questionable fungicides and pesticides

good luck glad to see you are working outside your comfort zone and experimenting, I hope it works out in your favor

 

[Weird]

one of the tricks of transitional is to ride low n in flower and that is easy to do esp if you add castings

in veg it is less critical so you can get them really green and put them into flower and ride that out maintaining till you want to stop feeding and when you do they will start to fade as if it were on command

riding the underfeed as I call it, that is feeding just a hair over under gives you alot of control and eliminates the need for "flushing" agents

this is the most exciting part for me and I have been doing so for years now

you can also learn to remediate your salts to you organic inputs making use of your salt purchases without taxing any ecosystem in doing so

foliar a 6-10th strength nitrogen salt fertilizer to plants slighty N hungry and you wont effect the living soil and you will mobilize the nutrient in a low dose, only where and when needed as if you were the rhizosphere

synthetic nutes are most dangerous because of how they are used (nitrification for example), in excess and much is left in the plant, however they are instantly effective because of their ionic form

if they are used in a different manner you can get the benefit without the detriment

learning how to gracefully reconcile them in a given ecosystem (even if it is the artificial on in your home) is the trick

 

[holystomata]

I'm guessing you have no idea what EDTA is. Otherwise, you wouldn't suggest it is just a chelating agent.

Good guess. Nowhere did you state that this was in Cal/Mag. And yes i did not know what it is. Tanks for learning me sumtin nu!

As for what it has to do with Cal-Mag, Krunch asked about his organic feeding program and I pointed out Cal-Mag is not organic. I know, the thread is long and you missed a few pages.

Wow. You're a charmer. I did read the thread but your statement was unclear. Maybe try working more on communication skills and less on attitude. You are on here to help people or just for the ego trip?

Wait, what? How can that be? EDTA isn't environmentally sound? But it's only a chelating agent... right, holystomata?

The reason I asked. Thank you for the one useful fact.

Short of that, you could always, oh I don't know, pay attention to what you put into your soil and avoid amendments that are high in heavy metals? Is that possible or are all soil growers in your world doomed?

It is possible that all soil growers are putting more heavy metals in their systems than hydro growers? Maybe. I don't know anything beyond what research is available. In this case my question had nothing to do with soil based medium. "Organic" amendments like Sea Bird and Bat guanos tend to have higher levels of toxic heavy metals. Same with kelp products and algae products, to a lesser extent. Unless in your infinite knowledge you know of products that are an exception. But once again why be helpful when you can just be sure you're right.

 

[theJointedOne]

if it comes in a bottle it should be questioned

 

[rasputin]

If I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast and I want you guys to act fast. So, pretty please... with sugar on top, don't use EDTA.

It comes down to knowledge. Know what to avoid and what to use.

Good guess. Nowhere did you state that this was in Cal/Mag.

CalMag, uh no. Iron EDTA. 'nuff said.

As you were saying?

Wow. You're a charmer. I did read the thread but your statement was unclear. Maybe try working more on communication skills and less on attitude. You are on here to help people or just for the ego trip?

Hahaha you act like they are mutually exclusive. I'll let you in on a dirty secret: most of the people on here fronting like they are just trying to "help" are really just in it for their ego. Worse, half of them are full of shit but it's OK because they are polite (more often just passive aggressive) and well liked and others are playing the same angle so there is a silent agreement not to call anyone out on it. This is especially true if they are all selling seeds or trying to start.

It is possible that all soil growers are putting more heavy metals in their systems than hydro growers? Maybe. I don't know anything beyond what research is available. In this case my question had nothing to do with soil based medium. "Organic" amendments like Sea Bird and Bat guanos tend to have higher levels of toxic heavy metals. Same with kelp products and algae products, to a lesser extent. Unless in your infinite knowledge you know of products that are an exception. But once again why be helpful when you can just be sure you're right.

I can be helpful and right, no? Just like I can be unhelpful and right. Or helpful and wrong. Or do you just want me to be helpful the way you want, regardless if I am right?

As to your question, is it possible that all soil growers are putting more into their systems than hydro growers? Well for one I can't speak for all soil growers. Generally, I would say it is unlikely but possible. Just like getting a ticket while driving is possible. Catch my drift?

Rasputin makes me want to crawl into a ball, cry and forget about the word organic...

Ignore him! That guy is a dick anyway.

 

[holystomata]

If I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast and I want you guys to act fast. So, pretty please... with sugar on top, don't use EDTA.

It comes down to knowledge. Know what to avoid and what to use.

Your curt because you care? HAHA ok. I appreciate that you want people to be selective. That's why I'm here, to learn. I am a simple hobbyist. Time is not a factor for me. If it were I wouldn't be on here.

I would like to get your perspective so I guess I'll just eat shit and ask: Do you have a good alternative to Botanicare CalMag?

As you were saying?

I thought you were suggesting Fe EDTA as an alternative to Cal Mag... Maybe other people correctly inferred what your point was but I did not.

I can be helpful and right, no? Just like I can be unhelpful and right. Or helpful and wrong. Or do you just want me to be helpful the way you want, regardless if I am right?

You can be whatever you want. Are you surprised someone would call you on it? I'm just not socialized yet I guess.

As to your question, is it possible that all soil growers are putting more into their systems than hydro growers? Well for one I can't speak for all soil growers. Generally, I would say it is unlikely but possible. Just like getting a ticket while driving is possible. Catch my drift?

Again I am not talking about the soil but "organic" amendments. If you believe the states of Washington and Oregon the products test for much higher concentrations of heavy metals.

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=266

vs.

http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=3800

Is one example.