Some concerns ...

[Sextracts]

@space toker, if your comment was directed towards me, sorry for the hard to understand post! I got my new refigerant pump, used in aiding the moving of solvent in my closed loop system, reftec diablo is the name, to replace the appion g5. It was a great investment in my opinion so far. Much quieter and better built, although slightly larger in dimensions.
Also the company I ordered my loop from, sent a column for a different machine than mine, it works but the hugely greater surface area of the column vs. what my machine was built for slows my recovery times down greatly, making my start to finish process much longer

 

[Gray Wolf]

I think gw uses a ratio of 3:1 volume of collection vessel to column....

Design considerations:

What is the surface area in the lower tank, relative to its depth. The more surface area and less depth, the faster it will recover.

How close will the boiling butane be to the pump inlet? I try to keep it at least 6" away, with one full column volume dump. Don't forget to use ID's when calculating, not OD's.

What are you making? Making decarboxylated oral oils using high heat requires less head space than making cotton candy, which inflates and fills the chamber.

If you are doing multiple columns without dumping the pot, and are making cotton candy, you need head space for it to expand. That distance appears to be at least 12".

 

[Sextracts]

6" x 6" collection vessel to 3"x36" column, going for shatter. tane frozen at 28 or so, recovery pot at 110, column frozen as well. using 4 cans or so

 

[icdog]

RB said his reftec handivac died for some reason. Has anyone outfitted their appion with these kits and have any idea what it does?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Appion-G5-T..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258ac7bf7c#shpCntId

 

[rb extractors]

Sadly it did yesterday. There are some shavings in the lower crankcase and I can't tell if one piston partially seized. Trying to figure out if it is repairable or if their pump just can't handle the rigors of what we do. If you saw the build of it, you'd think it would last forever.

Giddyup was telling me he has had to oil his bottom end every couple days. The downside is this could possibly introduce oil into the system unless you had good filtering/cold trap after the recovery pump.

As it stands, there is no good option currently for the smaller guy using a closed loop. You have to expect that your pump will not last a long time. I did send one of my appions back to airclean to have them refurbish one and I bought their kit to beef up the seals on my other one. Will keep you posted.

 

[rb extractors]

Forgot to say that the engineers are looking to see if they can overcome this issue or if it will require a complete redesign. If the later, they quite possibly won't do it.

 

[UNREGISTRD]

care to explain the first half of your paragraph for us neophytes that don't know wtf you are talking about? thanks!

It makes complete sense...What do you not understand? did you not read the thread??

The appion G5 is a product that has tried to keep up with our market and has FAILED...

We will wait and see who care about us and See whose machine can handle what we put through it...

Great Work RB!!

 

[rb extractors]

I think the problem is that there are none right now that are made to endure unless you consider 6k chump change. It just sucks to spend 700 and expect it to fail

 

[Sextracts]

Rb how long were you running your handivac for and how much per day would you say? My diablo is still very new and ive been careful trying not too run it too dry. Also ntane seems to be the next thing needed in the process!!

 

[rb extractors]

it depends... if we were running all cold, maybe 2.5 hours till we were ready to pour and if using bottom heat, about 40 or so minutes. This is running a 10x12 bottom spool and it usually being filled about half way or a little more.

It actually didn't get as much use as our first appion. It isn't so much about running it dry as the heat buildup in the crankcase. Maybe they will find a solution to the problem?

If you are running a closed loop, you can just clean it with your system

 

[Sextracts]

I am running cold usually with dry ice and i can feel the heat coming from the pump after a run or two on a 6x6 spool. I am running a closed loop, however my trouble is not in cleaning the butane, rather in picking up uncompressible gasses

 

[rb extractors]

From the recovery pump? If so, it is hot from the process of it being run through it. That is why some use an after cooler. What do you mean uncompressed gas?

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

I am running cold usually with dry ice and i can feel the heat coming from the pump after a run or two on a 6x6 spool. I am running a closed loop, however my trouble is not in cleaning the butane, rather in picking up uncompressible gasses

sounds like there is a leak in your system if you are picking up air, what is the pressure of your tank?

passed vac and pressure test?

 

[Gray Wolf]

I am running cold usually with dry ice and i can feel the heat coming from the pump after a run or two on a 6x6 spool. I am running a closed loop, however my trouble is not in cleaning the butane, rather in picking up uncompressible gasses

You appear to have a leak either at the pump, or on the intake side of the pump.

Have you pressure tested the system?

Will the pump come up to pressure and hold dead headed?

 

[Sextracts]

I think the uncompressibles are from the cans. i vac the system down and pressure test before each run and that would show any leaks in the pump I imagine.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I think the uncompressibles are from the cans. i vac the system down and pressure test before each run and that would show any leaks in the pump I imagine.

What brand of butane are you using?

 

[Sextracts]

I have tried to use Power 7 Cloud Fuel and newport, it may also be large amounts of propane im burping off i think. But when i recover all my tane to my storage vessel theres always a lot to be burped off.

 

[Gray Wolf]

When the tank is chilled, there will be a difference in pressure between propane and compressed air. If you have more than 100 psi at 31F, it is compressed air.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html

 

[Rickys bong]

rb extractors: There might be a way to get the Reftec to last longer. I'm guessing the crankcase is pressurized and you mention another user re-oils his bottom end? ( not a great idea) It doesn't surprise me the Recftec isn't lasting as the cylinders have no cooling fins. Which suggests they need gas flow to cool them.

Anyway, When I first started playing with this over 10 years ago I used a Promax for some experiments. The crank bearing failed and I think it was because butane can get past the bearing seal and be absorbed by the grease in the bearing. when the pressure drops, the butane wants to come out of the grease and will push grease out of the bearing and eventually cause it to fail. The bearings most pumps use are just off the shelf bearings that are permanently sealed / grease filled.
The seals are not going to keep gas from coming in however. I attached a pic of a failed Promax bearing.

Anyway, one thing you could try is to drill and tap the crankcase cover for a vent hose. You would also have to plug the port that feeds pressure to the crankcase.

The reason they pressurize the crankcase is to somewhat balance the pressure on the piston seals. Also so any gas leaking across the piston isn't lost to atmosphere. Venting the crankcase adds stress to the piston seals however...

The bottom line is that you are using refrigerant recovery pumps for something they were simply not designed for. The pumps "rated" for R-600 have nothing changed other than explosion proof electrical wiring.

Another concept may be to use a diaphragm pump to pull vapor from your collection vessel and feed a intermediate tank with a pressure switch. Diaphragm pumps such as a Gast DAA will be happy running at 20+ inches of vacuum all day without trouble.
The diaphragm pump could feed a small tank that has a pressure switch on it. When the intermediate tank reaches 30 psi, your Refrigerant pump comes on and pulls it down to say 5psi and shuts off.
It just seems a new concept is needed and the angst against the Appion is a bit misguided.

Diaphragm pumps don't like high pressures but will last quite long at full vacuum or up to about 30-50psi depending on the pump. They are cheap and replacing a diaphragm is something anybody can do as opposed to rebuilding a recovery pump. Even if you had to replace the diaphragm every week. No possibility of oil or grease getting into the butane stream as well.

My two cents...

Ricky

 

[jdee]

I just picked up a reftec, but curious what you think is the best current available option for our purposes off the shelf?