Terpenation at Terpene Station

[Gray Wolf]

Those 2 valves add around $300 cost if using 1/2" ones (Swagelok SS-RL4M8F8, Swagelok SS-8CPA2-50) not including the additional holding tank, if there are other more cost effective solutions for preventing psi levels from going over 100 I would be interested. Is a gauge and cracking the vapor valve to release pressure not sufficient?

Yeah, expensive aren't they?

The most cost effective way to keep pressure under 100 psi is to operate the equipment properly, and it will never come close to 100 psi.

ASME boiler code, Section VIII requires pressure relief.

While you can personally make that call for your own use, I can't market an unprotected pressure vessel and afford liability insurance or staying out of jail if someone gets seriously hurt.

Here is some information on alternatives. We've tried rupture discs instead, but they oil canned under alternating vacuum and pressure, eventually causing a failure.

https://www.irc.wisc.edu/file.php?id=172

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[Gray Wolf]

I have 2 sightglasses I was planning to use, one for the recovery port on collection pot and another for the top of the column, but I thought the check valve was for the recovery tank, not the collection pot? So to clarify, check and relief valves are going on recovery tank or collection pot? thanks for help, really appreciated.

Are we tangled in words?

The pressure relief goes on the lower terpenator collection tank.

The refrigerant storage tank already has pressure relief.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Not sure what happened to image, but here it is again.
View Image

Hee, hee, hee, good job! This elegantly simplifies a similar design that I came up with using stainless bain marie tubs in a row.

In my design, the vacuum plumbing is attached to a common vacuum manifold, which is attached to a large vacuum receiver held under -29.5" Hg, using a large Stokes pump, with Rootes blower, or equivalent.

While we have a joint commercial smart oven development project with Cascade TEK, which seems to be progressing nicely, when making artisan wax in small runs, a relatively expensive vacuum oven may not be the best solution.

Besides price, the advantage of multiple small vacuum chambers, is that you can treat each chamber separately and differently, as dictated by what you visually see happening.

 

[hounddogg]

I have 2 appions now. So should I get two 2.5lb extractors or one and run 2 pumps to it? Decisions decisions.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I would start with one and see how much fun it is first.

 

[icdog]

I added a sight glass to the top of my mkiii and a top down flush fitting for post column dump.
At the end of the final flood and vac is down to -10, I slowly open the vent valve and equalize the pressure, then I slowly open the dump valve.
Is it normal for there to be liquid in the sight glass at this time?
I can see the level of the liquid going down slowly as the dump happens but once the valve is fully open there is still quite a bit of liquid in the sight glass. Shouldn't it be all dumped?

I think it goes down when I do a top down flush but I'm not totally sure. Gw how long should I do that top down flush for?

I'm trying to make sure I get out any trapped oil out of the tube.

 

[jdee]

What is the advantage of doing multiple passes vs doing a single pass from the bottom up with everything going through the vent line into the collection pot until the butane in the top sight glass runs clear? I know the instructions don't say to run it like that just curious why not?

 

[Young Bull]

Not sure what happened to image, but here it is again.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=50763&pictureid=1211361&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Yeah that's exactly what I want to make. Where did you get your lexan? Is it only 1/2"? I ordered a sheet of fda grade neoprene, it seems like it will be good seal, what did you make yours out of?

 

[Permacultuure]

What is the advantage of doing multiple passes vs doing a single pass from the bottom up with everything going through the vent line into the collection pot until the butane in the top sight glass runs clear? I know the instructions don't say to run it like that just curious why not?

You run the risk of over filling your collection spool, and putting oil laden butane through your appion. If you are careful and time the flood properly the single pass method works great.

 

[rb extractors]

we do single pass on our 2.5lb system because exposure time with butane/material is too long. the pumps can't recover fast enough and we don't like adding bottom heat until we are done blasting. we finish blasting from 30 sec to about a minute 30 then dump the column. then we introduce bottom heat. we probably fill up the bottom spool about half way then dump. we've got viewing ports on the lid to keep an eye on things.

 

[Young Bull]

What is the advantage of doing multiple passes vs doing a single pass from the bottom up with everything going through the vent line into the collection pot until the butane in the top sight glass runs clear? I know the instructions don't say to run it like that just curious why not?

I think part of it is you want to offer the butane as many different paths through the material as possible if you blasted the same direction the whole time I think there is a chance of some material not being as saturated as the butane just follows the same path of least resistance every time, when you change the direction of flow it may follow different paths. Also as I saw someone else say you want to efficiently extract as much oil with as little butane as possible. One reason for that would be it is easier on the pump but the other is I think you would start to extract material you didn't want if you just kept blasting it until you got absolutely everything you could. With the new top down adapter GW designed it seems like it would make it that much more easy to finesse that balance.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I added a sight glass to the top of my mkiii and a top down flush fitting for post column dump.
At the end of the final flood and vac is down to -10, I slowly open the vent valve and equalize the pressure, then I slowly open the dump valve.
Is it normal for there to be liquid in the sight glass at this time?
I can see the level of the liquid going down slowly as the dump happens but once the valve is fully open there is still quite a bit of liquid in the sight glass. Shouldn't it be all dumped?

I think it goes down when I do a top down flush but I'm not totally sure. Gw how long should I do that top down flush for?

I'm trying to make sure I get out any trapped oil out of the tube.

I don't run sight glasses at the head of my column, because of their pressure limitations, but am working on one suitable for that purpose. They should however, be clear of liquid once you have dumped and flushed.

After you open the dump valve, close the vent valve and open the top flush valve. We are still experimenting, starting with putting one volume of butane through for a flush and working backwards.

I wouldn't worry about the vent tube staying clear. I have yet to hear of one not doing so. Solvent moves through it pretty fast when you equalize and keeps it well flushed.

 

[Gray Wolf]

What is the advantage of doing multiple passes vs doing a single pass from the bottom up with everything going through the vent line into the collection pot until the butane in the top sight glass runs clear? I know the instructions don't say to run it like that just curious why not?

To dissolve the resin, requires contact time. You can get contact time with less butane flow, using soaks.

You also have limitations on how much butane/oil the bottom pot will hold, before the pump starts aspirating liquid. The batch processing allows you to put the liquid into the lower tank in batch sizes that it tolerates. When you run it in continuous flow, you have to throttle the flood within the capabilities of the pump.

Another option, if you don't have top flushing, is to flood the column until it exits the vent, and then open the dump valve, dropping it into the lower pot for recovery. After doing it that way the required number of cycle, the last cycle you flood from the bottom and vent one volumes worth of liquid out the top as the final flush, before final dump out the bottom.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Yeah that's exactly what I want to make. Where did you get your lexan? Is it only 1/2"? I ordered a sheet of fda grade neoprene, it seems like it will be good seal, what did you make yours out of?

Suggest one inch for the long dimension, due to deflection and high cyclic fatigue.

We get ours from Tap or Multi Craft Plastics, usually as remnants at $2/lb from the latter.

Neoprene works. We use Viton from Paramount Supply.

 

[Young Bull]

Suggest one inch for the long dimension, due to deflection and high cyclic fatigue.

We get ours from Tap or Multi Craft Plastics, usually as remnants at $2/lb from the latter.

Neoprene works. We use Viton from Paramount Supply.

I've checked both websites and they only list up to 1/2" thickness. I've contacted multicraft to get a quote for a thicker piece and it was very expensive. Jerry Sprague quoted me "For the 1.5” x 10” x 14” Clear polycarbonate $ 371.06 pc. Lead time: 1 week ARO". So Then I asked about any scrap pieces he might have and he never got back to me. Who is your contact over there?

 

[Gray Wolf]

we do single pass on our 2.5lb system because exposure time with butane/material is too long. the pumps can't recover fast enough and we don't like adding bottom heat until we are done blasting. we finish blasting from 30 sec to about a minute 30 then dump the column. then we introduce bottom heat. we probably fill up the bottom spool about half way then dump. we've got viewing ports on the lid to keep an eye on things.

Good idea on the view ports! We've discussed them and I committed to adding two on the next Mk VA. Are they staying clear enough to see what is going on?

Another thing we are experimenting with high pressure view ports, is a three way port, with one for light, one for a sensor, and one for visual observation. I'm hoping there is enough light change between butane dark with oil and clear butane, to read it with automation instrumentation.

Also a good point on the pumps keeping up, which is why we've made provisions to run three of them, and have moved to the Haskel pneumatic recovery pump for commercial applications. They are about twice as fast as an Appion or Diablo during the critical recovery phase and the option for up to three of them on the Mk V's and larger cut to the chase.

Clearly the air required to operate two Haskels or even three, are beyond most home applications, and the whole reason for three ports was to allow the use of three smaller and less expensive pumps, as the owners needs and pocket book dictate.

How long you can soak, is highly dependent on temperature, and attached is the first automatic run with product on the Mk VA. The first run was a cleaning run, using spent material, and everything discarded.

In this case, we ran three flood cycles of 58 seconds each. The Mk VA is set to flood the columns 1.5 minutes, but at any time during that flood, you can hit the set switch, and it will change to that flood time. In practice, the operator watches the sight glass for column overflow on the first flood, and hits the button to select that time. Column flood times vary by how they are packed, so using actual flood times reduces over washing.

We've been keeping our bottom heat between 65F and 85F and using column heat only after the dump.

One of the reasons for the separate column recovery features on all Mk's starting with the Mk IV, is that heating the butane in the column, changes the state of the material in your recovery pot as it passes through. Exhausting it separately allows us to heat the columns up to whatever temperature we desire, up to this point <250F max.

We've also found high butane losses without heating the columns, or long recovery times, because the material is soaked with butane like a wet sponge and has to be vacuum dried. As soon as it starts evaporating, it drops the temperature below butane's boiling point and the boiling stops.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I've checked both websites and they only list up to 1/2" thickness. I've contacted multicraft to get a quote for a thicker piece and it was very expensive. Jerry Sprague quoted me "For the 1.5” x 10” x 14” Clear polycarbonate $ 371.06 pc. Lead time: 1 week ARO". So Then I asked about any scrap pieces he might have and he never got back to me. Who is your contact over there?

No one, I just walk in and look around. There is no one tending the remnant yard, you pick what you want, weigh it yourself, and carry it to the next building to pay for it in the office.

Acrylic is cheaper and stiffer than Polycarbonate, you you might also price that out.

 

[rb extractors]

Good idea on the view ports! We've discussed them and I committed to adding two on the next Mk VA. Are they staying clear enough to see what is going on?

Another thing we are experimenting with high pressure view ports, is a three way port, with one for light, one for a sensor, and one for visual observation. I'm hoping there is enough light change between butane dark with oil and clear butane, to read it with automation instrumentation.

Also a good point on the pumps keeping up, which is why we've made provisions to run three of them, and have moved to the Haskel pneumatic recovery pump for commercial applications. They are about twice as fast as an Appion or Diablo during the critical recovery phase and the option for up to three of them on the Mk V's and larger cut to the chase.

Clearly the air required to operate two Haskels or even three, are beyond most home applications, and the whole reason for three ports was to allow the use of three smaller and less expensive pumps, as the owners needs and pocket book dictate.

How long you can soak, is highly dependent on temperature, and attached is the first automatic run with product on the Mk VA. The first run was a cleaning run, using spent material, and everything discarded.

In this case, we ran three flood cycles of 58 seconds each. The Mk VA is set to flood the columns 1.5 minutes, but at any time during that flood, you can hit the set switch, and it will change to that flood time. In practice, the operator watches the sight glass for column overflow on the first flood, and hits the button to select that time. Column flood times vary by how they are packed, so using actual flood times reduces over washing.

We've been keeping our bottom heat between 65F and 85F and using column heat only after the dump.

One of the reasons for the separate column recovery features on all Mk's starting with the Mk IV, is that heating the butane in the column, changes the state of the material in your recovery pot as it passes through. Exhausting it separately allows us to heat the columns up to whatever temperature we desire, up to this point <250F max.

We've also found high butane losses without heating the columns, or long recovery times, because the material is soaked with butane like a wet sponge and has to be vacuum dried. As soon as it starts evaporating, it drops the temperature below butane's boiling point and the boiling stops.

I think occasionally they will get a bit hazy, but the distance from the butane laden oil is so great, you never get splatter on the bottom of the lid.

3 way port? as in 3 ports? The reason I went with two ports is that it got too hard sourcing illuminated viewing ports at a reasonable price. I figure an led flashlight works just as good for cheap.

I'd like to just use oil viewing ports that are male npt, but finding ones that are reasonably priced and meet our temp requirements has been challenging.

Only twice as fast with the Haskel? Even with bottom heat? That is disappointing. Sadly the appion is faster than the diablo, but with bottom heat the time differential isn't that much.

Yeah, we have experienced the same issues with 5lb tubes having too much butane in it, hence the separate recovery required.

 

[Young Bull]

No one, I just walk in and look around. There is no one tending the remnant yard, you pick what you want, weigh it yourself, and carry it to the next building to pay for it in the office.

Acrylic is cheaper and stiffer than Polycarbonate, you you might also price that out.

I'm in Michigan so I will just have to try and find a similar supplier by me. It seems scraps is the only affordable way to go.

 

[HighStateToke]

20 vs 150 mesh viton gaskets? I plan to use qualitative filters as well. Would be nice to find mesh gaskets fine enough to be able to eliminate the filter papers as well...someone please chime in if you are aware of some

Also, I've noticed a few using shorter dip tubes(something that interests me as I would love to avoid having to remove product from them) How much shorter can I go without sacrificing my pump? With a 10"x12" collection tank that is.

Much love ya'll.