Designing vert for the first time

[Cokezzz]

Yea, I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, the room is below grade. Opposite to the wall is actually my front lawn. W/ a patio deck, concrete stairs to my front door... just damn near impossible to work on my own. I live on a hill, so even if I were to french drain my lawn into the street, I think I might get the water from my neighbor right above me. Hence, bringing in a professional to actually take a look at it, but I can't even have him go into the basement because of all the shit going on in there, haha.

The leak really is minimal and only occurs on heavy rain days. If it's a regular rain day, it could be wiped up w/ a towel. I just don't want to risk building a whole grow room only to expose the ladies to a potential hazard. Thinking about purchasing a big tent and putting something in between that and the floor. I don't know, I hope this is not a lost cause, just playing with ideas I guess. Thanks for the input you guys! Decisions decisions...

 

[DHF]

Bro....If it`s only a towels full on heavy rain situations , just keep buncha sterilization shit on the shelves in wait ta deal with it when it happens, and by all means monitor excess RH lights OFF to make sure air mc`nasties ain`t growin while you AND the plants are sleepin....now....

Get backta work..........Respect and....

Peace...DHF..........

 

[Ttystikk]

Still curious though, finally decided on a Powerbox DPC-7500 so 6 lights will be my max. Any setups that might accommodate my area better?

Welllllll... since ya asked...

Your room is very similar to one in my basement, only in my case I have no leaks. I do have a closet that needs to be hacked out, and ductwork to remove from the ceiling, but afterwards it should make a space 11.5' square by a bit more than 7' tall.

Currently, that room has two 'silos'- large cylinders of 4' tall field fencing 4' in diameter, or 12.5' in circumference. Doing the math, that gives 12.5' x 4' = 50 ft². In practice, the bulb might give up just a bit of its punch within 6" of top or bottom of the trellis, but nothing compared to bring shaded or way out at the corner of a flat ScrOG. I have a bit of a reputation as a gearbuilder, and I'm working on a vertical light mover to better distribute the light top to bottom.

I run one vertical thouie in the middle of each silo, and trellised the plants against the outside of the girls fencing. The only part of the plant that gets through the trellis are the budding tips. I believe this is a crucial detail, as it actively manages the all important distance between bulb and bud, keeping the maximum amount of plant mass within the 'goldilocks zone' of ideal distance from the light source. I believe using light pressure measurements like 50W/ft² fail somehow when dealing with the silo setup. Instead of worrying about the statistic I followed my gut, which told me that a bud growing 16-24" away from a bare thouie is not light deprived! And in spite of this silo having a horrible number- 1000W/50ft² =20w/ft²??- I can assure you it is effectively producing both quality and quantity.

These guys talk about spending a lot of time with yoyos and delarfing and cleaning out the interior of the plant. I don't do any of that. I train my growing tips on the trellis, and at appropriate times I remove fan leaves. Because the entire plant is smashed up against the silo, the whole thing gets prime lighting and therefore, no larf. Since I train the branches across the silo before they get to close to the bulb, the plant has a chance to fill in during stretch and then present an even canopy to the bulb.

The reason I am mentioning this to you is that your room is the ideal size and height for four of the silos I just described. I'm running trees inside out, one tree per 25 ft² trellis, only two to a silo. I see no reason why that part of the setup is terribly critical, if you want to add more plants to more quickly fill in the trellis I'd think that's good strategy. Similarly, as long as the ladies get good nutrition, I don't think it matters all that much whether it's coco or RDWC.

This approach will allow you to better utilize fewer bulbs, and do it over a drastically larger trellis area. I believe it will give you better results with less watts than the four plant/five bulb vertical trees plan discussed above, and you'll get those results with less trimming and training. Why do I believe all this? UFOs told me.. ...kidding! The truth is that I find the big tree rooms with lots of vertical bare bulbs hanging around to be rather inefficient in their use of available light- which then implies that the excess HVAC shenanigans to deal with it are also inefficient. The silo approach addresses this shortcoming directly, and my experience thus far confirms my suspicion that distance from the bulb is more important than watts per square foot.

I plan to improve my room to the above specification run after next, when I've had time to plan for the mayhem and construction. Next round, I'm adding a third bulb and two more girls, just like the room I just reconfigured next door.

I'll try to post a link to my thread, where I flesh these ideas out in more detail, with the all important pics;

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=277889

 

[DHF]

Well TTYS....for the record , I loathe plant yo-yo`s so prevalently used and advocated at the farm for big plants , cuz I was taught chickenwire on the ceilings and just regular plant twine to tie off and open up , as well as support limbs during stretch through end of cycle FTW with 4 plants being constantly bombarded by 3 lights at all times with 50 watts per sq ft , as the baseline for optimal growth and swellage through the life of said 4 plants....and....

I totally understand your concept of "espalier`ing" of your 2 plants in each inverted silo by training and tying off each limb sideways up down and all around said silo`s to create as thick of a sideways canopy with no holes anywhere in said canopy for optimal return off 2 plants per 1000 watter....but.....

The only wayta know for a fact if yas are capable of , and or are doing just as well with 20 watts per sq ft compared to 50 would be to increase wattage with more silo`s AND more thouie`s till the WHOLE room adds up to 50 watts per sq ft , but to do that.....

Your silo`s would haveta be smaller to accommodate a 10x10 area , and OR supply supplemental bare bulbs outside the silo`s to make up for the difference , but if you`re pullin 10 -12 lbs off 4 silo`s in the same sq ftg with 8 plants and only 4 lights/silo`s , then who am I ta say you`re doin ANYTHING wrong , so again.....

There`s many waysta skin a mule , but till now and for the longest of times and many yrs since , I`ve never seen a better producer for low plant numbers in a small area than the 4 plant 5 light setup I ran for almost a decade "Krusty bucket style"....now....

HL45 had a thread before security issues called "Love Machines" with illustrations of how I helped him set up the 10x10`s to run side by side perpetually a month or so apart in age , and....

His Sour Diesel plant was and most likely is still pumpin out 10+ and then some with just 4 plants , and prolly getting closer to 3 lb plants as we speak since having dialed said strain in said setup WITHOUT cleanin out the insides or much of ANY tending at all since he said all the larfy trim gets extracted FTW in Med-ville.....so...

Proud ta have fresh perspectives and different ways to accomplish the same goal with lesser wattage even if it`s double the amount of plants for close to same results , if similar low veg times are employed as well for apples to apples instead of oranges...regardless....

20 watts per sq ft flies in the face of ALL I know holy and true , but again.....stranger things have happened and I grew 2-1/2 lb plants consistently with only 34 watts per sq ft for almost a decade , but I`d used the same strain for over 12 yrs outside , and knew her needs 9 ways from sunday and exploited that bitch for all she was worth.....bottom line....

When I upped my wattage per sq ft to 50 per with my ebb and flow buckets with increased plant numbers , the SAME strain that I THOUGHT was as dialed as the bitch could get , turned out as different as NIGHT and DAY , with waaaay more trichome production , calyx to leaf ratio , bud density , and simply overall hardly looked like the same plant I`d run exclusively for almost 20 yrs inside AND outdoors WITH 2-1/2 OZ plants instead of 2-1/2 LB`ers , so.....

Things that make yas go hmmmm , and thoughts to ponder......that said....

Thanks again for options and showing in detail how you pull your numbers......

Peace....DHF.....

 

[touchofgrey]

20 watts per sq ft flies in the face of ALL I know holy and true , but again.....stranger things have happened
Peace....DHF.....

the 20 watts/SF he's talking is per square foot of screen in his silo. With a 4' diameter screen the watts/SF of floor area is right in the 50 watt's/SF ballpark.

 

[DHF]

the 20 watts/SF he's talking is per square foot of screen in his silo. With a 4' diameter screen the watts/SF of floor area is right in the 50 watt's/SF ballpark.

Guess my old ass missed that TOG , but that SOUNDS sooooo much better to me now.....but in his silo thread , I see he`s agreeing with me so dunno ?......

Peace....DHF..........

 

[Cokezzz]

Welllllll... since ya asked...

Your room is very similar to one in my basement, only in my case I have no leaks. I do have a closet that needs to be hacked out, and ductwork to remove from the ceiling, but afterwards it should make a space 11.5' square by a bit more than 7' tall.

Currently, that room has two 'silos'- large cylinders of 4' tall field fencing 4' in diameter, or 12.5' in circumference. Doing the math, that gives 12.5' x 4' = 50 ft². In practice, the bulb might give up just a bit of its punch within 6" of top or bottom of the trellis, but nothing compared to bring shaded or way out at the corner of a flat ScrOG. I have a bit of a reputation as a gearbuilder, and I'm working on a vertical light mover to better distribute the light top to bottom.

I run one vertical thouie in the middle of each silo, and trellised the plants against the outside of the girls fencing. The only part of the plant that gets through the trellis are the budding tips. I believe this is a crucial detail, as it actively manages the all important distance between bulb and bud, keeping the maximum amount of plant mass within the 'goldilocks zone' of ideal distance from the light source. I believe using light pressure measurements like 50W/ft² fail somehow when dealing with the silo setup. Instead of worrying about the statistic I followed my gut, which told me that a bud growing 16-24" away from a bare thouie is not light deprived! And in spite of this silo having a horrible number- 1000W/50ft² =20w/ft²??- I can assure you it is effectively producing both quality and quantity.

These guys talk about spending a lot of time with yoyos and delarfing and cleaning out the interior of the plant. I don't do any of that. I train my growing tips on the trellis, and at appropriate times I remove fan leaves. Because the entire plant is smashed up against the silo, the whole thing gets prime lighting and therefore, no larf. Since I train the branches across the silo before they get to close to the bulb, the plant has a chance to fill in during stretch and then present an even canopy to the bulb.

The reason I am mentioning this to you is that your room is the ideal size and height for four of the silos I just described. I'm running trees inside out, one tree per 25 ft² trellis, only two to a silo. I see no reason why that part of the setup is terribly critical, if you want to add more plants to more quickly fill in the trellis I'd think that's good strategy. Similarly, as long as the ladies get good nutrition, I don't think it matters all that much whether it's coco or RDWC.

This approach will allow you to better utilize fewer bulbs, and do it over a drastically larger trellis area. I believe it will give you better results with less watts than the four plant/five bulb vertical trees plan discussed above, and you'll get those results with less trimming and training. Why do I believe all this? UFOs told me.. ...kidding! The truth is that I find the big tree rooms with lots of vertical bare bulbs hanging around to be rather inefficient in their use of available light- which then implies that the excess HVAC shenanigans to deal with it are also inefficient. The silo approach addresses this shortcoming directly, and my experience thus far confirms my suspicion that distance from the bulb is more important than watts per square foot.

I plan to improve my room to the above specification run after next, when I've had time to plan for the mayhem and construction. Next round, I'm adding a third bulb and two more girls, just like the room I just reconfigured next door.

I'll try to post a link to my thread, where I flesh these ideas out in more detail, with the all important pics;

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=277889

TBQH w/ you, when I first originally thought of going vert that was pretty much the idea I had. I currently grow SCROG under 4x 1k air cooled hoods and so I know how efficient keeping a leveled distance from bud tips to light provide, especially w/ training through the trellis (silo) to keep just the tips a perfect distance from your lighting. The reason I still decide to go w/ the 4plant 5light setup is simply simplicity. 4+ plants require 4+ transplants, 4+ training, 4+ feedings and 4+ maintenance x however many silo/lights I would decide to go w/. Even w/ the blumats, you still have to maintain that many more plants and have an equal amount of tubing and carrots. I currently do 4x 5gal pots per light and that alone is just way more time than I want to spend on them.

Growing large trees is much more simpler and the return on time spent seems way more efficient. Having 2 flower rooms, I would like something a lot easier to maintain so I can get back to my life, lol. I also think growing out a full blown tree would actually be a lot cooler than doing a bunch of smaller plants weaved into a silo, but that's just a matter of opinion

I certainly agree w/ you and do think I could get more weight out of training the makeup of a silo to essentially get ~50wpsf but I still firmly believe the outcome of quality will be the same. All in all, I would like to spend minimal time on these 1 month apart rooms and looking at this tried and true setup leaves me to believe that I would get a lot of my own personal time back. Thanks for the advice though! I'm glad to know that the idea I thought of to begin w/ would more than likely produce more weight and maybe sometime when I have more of, I'll give it a go

 

[Cokezzz]

Get backta work.....

I'm trying! Lowe's has yet to ship my order of reflectix... they had to special order it from reflectix themselves but it still hasn't come in. Against your advice, I've decided still to go through w/ concreting w/ the hydraulic variety over the whole flooring. I just don't want to have anything to worry about in the room itself. There is a sump pump outback so hopefully putting a barrier will just direct it to that and not emerge somewhere else. It's an older house and if/when I ever get the opportunity to knock er down and rebuild, I certainly will. So long as this bandaid holds up for a couple years, it will be worth the effort.

Here's what I've been doing in the meantime! These were taken last week which would mark them at 5 1/2 weeks.

 

[DHF]

That`s an awesome flat canopy Bro........Respect.....and hey.....Hydraulic cement works well as long as there`s no pressure buildup , and if said buildup`s directed toward the sump pump , then mission accomplished till upgrades can be made down the road as budget permits....now....

Hope Harvey`s good to yas with present setup , and keep us updated when yas get time.....

Peace....DHF.........

 

[flat9]

Hey Cokezzz that's a beautiful garden you got there! But yeah, I hear scrogging is a lot of work though it gives great horizontal results. If you ran a similar setup but growing 4 trees (say 5 1k's in a 10 x 10 with the usual setup), do you think you'd outyield the scrog? I'm curious ...

Also, how long did you have to veg to fill those screens, eh?

 

[Cokezzz]

That`s an awesome flat canopy Bro........Respect.....and hey.....Hydraulic cement works well as long as there`s no pressure buildup , and if said buildup`s directed toward the sump pump , then mission accomplished till upgrades can be made down the road as budget permits....now....

Hope Harvey`s good to yas with present setup , and keep us updated when yas get time.....

Peace....DHF.........

Thanks Freds! Yea, balling on a budget is tough, lol. I definitely hope it all works out, but if we have hiccups, we just adapt or perish, or so I'm told! I'll certainly keep you guys dated. I'll finally keep real journals when I get the vert grow going as to keep a nice comparison, timeline between the two.

Here's current day, trucking along fine. Picture wise, they're pretty much the same but starting to finally stack some trichs. Monday marks week 6 and will be going on a straight water + drip clean for 2 weeks then chop. No examining or waiting for ripeness unfortunately, just stick to a strict 8 week program, chop and on to the next harvey.

 

[Cokezzz]

I mean crop!

 

[Cokezzz]

Hey Cokezzz that's a beautiful garden you got there! But yeah, I hear scrogging is a lot of work though it gives great horizontal results. If you ran a similar setup but growing 4 trees (say 5 1k's in a 10 x 10 with the usual setup), do you think you'd outyield the scrog? I'm curious ...

Also, how long did you have to veg to fill those screens, eh?

Thanks F9! Ya, depending on size of garden plus amount of room to work with/around dictate the difficulty. I can't reach the center of my trellis so I spend most of my time working kneeling/crawling under the garden.

Since you're asking what I think, then yea, I believe 4 trees would outyield a similar horizontal setup. W/a reflector hood, your footprint can only be flat since it's only beaming down and 4.5 x 4.5 ft has you knocking on 50wpsf's door. W/a hung bare bulb, your footprint turns into a canopy wrapped 360 degrees around your bulb. I'm not sure on the math, but I think Ttystikk has it in his post here and TOG also has a follow up. I'm too slow for all that, but I can kinda picture it, lol.

The horizontal scrog will leave you w/ consistency. My garden I have on display here is not mono cropped. Those are 4 different strains and I have yet to meet a strain that didn't respond well to the tucking and weaving. The key is even light distribution. But with the bare bulb, opening er up and getting good light penetration is key. So tree growing will have you on the hunt for perfect phenos and champ colas. Not that you can't grow good golf ball nuggage vertically, but for simplicity's sake, I'd rather have less branches to tie Again, I'd like to reiterate that this is just my opinion based on experience only from horizontal scrog and theorycrafting til eyes bled on vert. So, ymmv.

Cuts were taken in week 2-3 of previous grow and took 10 days to root. So, those were vegged for about 4 weeks give or take. I personally get good results from pruning up so i usually top once I have a nice base, train 3-4 main colas then tuck and weave once it hits the trellis removing all the weakling branches. I usually have 30-50% filled once I flip, but that stretch though! It always gets overcrowded once you start weaving so once I run out of room to train, I cut it to stop stretch.