What are 'True Organics' and 'Pseudo Organics' and what are the pros & cons of each?

[VerdantGreen]

How are you increasing aeration and decreasing compaction by tilling and breaking up
All the networks or bacteria and fungi that keep the soil loose and aerated? Our mixes are already so aerated and light compared to
Outdoor soils, I don't even get why this is a concern?

the physical act of watering will compact soils, especially if you have to do it in a real hurry like i often do. mixing it up and re-potting will also increase the pore size in the mix.

have you not noticed how the soil level in a container will drop throughout time? some of this is down to elements being used but most of it is down to compaction. like i said i dont use myco so this removes the biggest disadvantage of tilling my soil (edit)

as i mentioned before, im just telling how i do it and get great results - thats not to say you cant get great results doing it another way

VG

 

[dank.frank]

VG - I'm not understanding your statement up above...

Myco = disadvantage?

Could you clarify?

Personally, I notice an AMAZING difference...positive impact...on general soil structure when I "inoculate" (for a lack of a better term) the medium with various beneficials.

Honestly, since I don't do a no-till - I think the addition of such things is one of my saving graces in achieving and maintaining a healthy, active soil.

What is your reasoning for not using such products? Have you tried any previously?



dank.Frank

 

[Microbeman]

VG makes a point, concerning growing in smaller pots. The whole mycorrhizal thing is arguable as it is only a type of fungi amidst a myriad of other fungi, bacteria/archaea, protozoa, nematodes, etc. which make up the heirarchical structure of living soil. When we were reamending in similar fashion to Weird's description, we did discontinue the use of solubles with no discernable difference in plant growth. e.g. using only [vermi]compost.

I've gotta say that in 84 I grew with great results using only 20-20-20 beginning to end but I do recognize now the flawed thinking involved in that.

 

[VerdantGreen]

frank, i explained it badly - i meant that the fact i dont use myco means that tilling or re-amending the soil is not breaking up the fungal network.

the reason i dont use them is that, afaik, its advantages to such short lived plants is arguable and its establishment on canna is hit and miss according to what ive read... so i have thus far not experimented with them on cannabis. i do innoculate trees and shrubs with myco when i plant them, but i think more along the lines of bacterially dominated soils for growing crop plants and annuals.

for sure, fungally dominated soils are quite soft and spongy. quite a bit of research over here is going into using tree/shrub belts to alleviate flooding, they make the soils drain much better.
VG

 

[pseudostelariae]

i've been reading that in vermi/compost and especially ancient 'arctic' humus, there already exists a naturally beneficial blend of bacteria, fungi, nematodes, and protozoa so it might not even be necessary to inoculate mycos. i've been told the same thing even about bales of pro-mix, that they come teeming with beneficials right out of the bag. is this true? sort of wish i had read/heard that before throwing 40$ at a pouch of Santiam considering my mix is already 1/3 vermicompost.

 

[dank.frank]

Okay...got ya, VG.

I'd suggest that even if you aren't supplement with myco - of course there are still native fauna in the medium - simply because you use top soil in your mix.

That network exists even if you may not be trying to directly enhance it with additional applications, etc...

But you know all this.

I'd suggest you give something a try - and decide for yourself. Reading all the research and studies is great to accumulate knowledge...but I always tend to trust my first hand experiences the most...even in spite of.

I know I don't have all the correct answers all the time - or my understanding / execution of things may not always fall in line with conventional wisdom - but, how does one ignore/dismiss positive or improved results?

Again, I'd suggest you give it a try - and even if you don't directly notice an immediate improvement in you plants - I'm certain you will notice an immense improvement in the quality of your medium.

One of the things I also noticed most was a much higher efficiency / utilization of soil inputs. I reduced various inputs significantly...



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

psuedo - Pro-Mix is mixed glomus intraradices...and they also make offer their own line of mycos...

http://promixpur.com/en/

I use T & J BioVam and BioAg Vam - 2tbs of each per batch of soil I mix. I don't apply it directly to the roots, although I know that to be the proper way of using mycos - I just mix it into the soil.



dank.Frank

 

[DinosaurCocks]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Reading all the research and studies is great to accumulate knowledge...but I always tend to trust my first hand experiences the most...even in spite of.[/FONT]
I know I don't have all the correct answers all the time - or my understanding / execution of things may not always fall in line with conventional wisdom - but, how does one ignore/dismiss positive or improved results?

i dismiss it as placebo...i believed the myco hype at first, as does every single person buying a jar of greatwhite or other freeze dried myco inoculants for anything annual...you spend 40 bucks on a tiny bottle with pretty hologram illustrations on the label and you have high hopes, so you see what you want to see, you see what your brain thinks it should see...

the large bulk of research that says cannabis and most annual plants prefer a bacteria dominated soil, and that fungally dominated soils generally only form around the roots of plants that are in the soil for many years like shrubs and trees...not to mention that if you were to actually establish a fungal community it would vastly change the ph of the rhizosphere, rendering the plants preferred nitrogen fixing bacteria useless, forcing the plant to uptake a less beneficial ammonia based form of nitrogen.

it just seems to me that if you are trusting your gut in an admittedly small garden over thousands of scientists with their vast funding, space, and high tech equipment as well as all of the findings they present...well you must think you are quite the gardener, for the most part im always going to believe what the phd's write in books over what "some guy i know told me"...we haven't gotten this far as human beings by assuming ourselves superior to everyone around us, or by ignoring the work of those who have come before us...there are TONS of great books on the subject.

 

[Microbeman]

psuedo - Pro-Mix is mixed glomus intraradices...and they also make offer their own line of mycos...

http://promixpur.com/en/

I use T & J BioVam and BioAg Vam - 2tbs of each per batch of soil I mix. I don't apply it directly to the roots, although I know that to be the proper way of using mycos - I just mix it into the soil.



dank.Frank

If I recall correctly T&J still have trichoderma spores in their mix at roughly 1000+ times the rate of endomycorrhizal spores [please do correct me if mistaken]. You are probably benefitting greatly from the trichoderma. It is a powerhouse of protection and sprouts-grows very easily, even without plants. (I have grown it over night in a petri dish)

There is also literature indicating that it has some nutrient provision capacity, similar to that of mycorrhizal fungi.

We used it in our soil to combat/prevent botrytis.

 

[Microbeman]

Bear in mind that when one speaks of a fungally dominated soil as regards trees and shrubs, much of this refers to ectomycorrhizal fungi and often ones with fruiting bodies (mushrooms). Almost all annuals and perenniels associate with endomycorrhizal fungi but there are many other fungal species growing through out the soil amidst bacteria, archaea, protozoa & nematodes. Nitrogen fixing bacteria in relation to cannabis (AFAIK) provide only a small share of the nitrogen uptaken. These would need to be free living bacteria as cannabis roots have no nodules for this purpose, which I know of.

I believe that the lion's share of nutrients come from mineralization from; 1/ predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa and nematodes as well 2/ as that derived from organic acids exuded by roots and 3/ hypothetically [Wilson] via symbiotic dark septate endophytes (fungi imperfecti)

I believe that a soil comprised of a balance of organisms is the optimum.

 

[dank.frank]

i dismiss it as placebo...you see what your brain thinks it should see...

Nope. I see what I see.

^^^ Jamestown (colonization pun)

well you must think you are quite the gardener....assuming ourselves superior to everyone around us, or by ignoring the work of those who have come before us...

Umm.... okay.

------

@ Microbeman:

I know we've discussed the T & J BioVam product previously. It is because of those discussion a few years back I began applying the BioAg Vam in conjunction with - to increase the endo spore counts.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=185572&page=3... and forward

PS - In reviewing that thread / conversation, I'd have to say I owe you an immense apology. I certainly came off as a complete douche in several of those responses - my sincerest apologies.

I think back to what was taking place at that point in time - and I certainly didn't realize I was letting things spill over into my posts and affect my general attitude that drastically.

I appreciate you having taken the time to educate in spite of facing those defensive and often hostile responses.



dank.Frank

 

[rasputin]

Almost all annuals and perenniels associate with endomycorrhizal fungi but there are many other fungal species growing through out the soil amidst bacteria, archaea, protozoa & nematodes.

I believe that the lion's share of nutrients come from mineralization from; 1/ predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa and nematodes as well 2/ as that derived from organic acids exuded by roots and 3/ hypothetically [Wilson] via symbiotic dark septate endophytes (fungi imperfecti)

I believe that a soil comprised of a balance of organisms is the optimum.

QFT (emphasis added on endo is my own)

The sad thing is that it is often the same people delivering "defensive and often hostile responses" to people like MM, those who take the time to help others by sharing information.

I think it's a joke that MM does not have a Mentor tag, particularly when you consider some of those who do. Granted, it means little in the grand scheme - I struggle to think of anyone who deserves that tag more than him, especially in this forum.

That linked Myco thread reads like deja vu. Someone getting defensive and argumentative because they have completely misunderstood what is being said to them. MM is educating someone on misrepresenting the benefits and applications of specific myco's and yet is getting shit in return about things he didn't actually say. Deja vu, indeed.

MM is a Saint in my book. He's probably put up with more shit brained, moronic responses than anyone on this site.

Hey VG, have you found a sufficient answer to the question of this thread yet?

 

[yortbogey]

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/ormus/ormus.htm

I'm looking for sum feedback..... on ORMUS

 

[Microbeman]

Rasputin & Frank; I very much appreciate the comments. I do need to say that I do not have the Mentor label at my own request so all blame for that rests with me.

Frank, I sort of thought that the reason why you added the BioAg product. I just received a PM asking for a recommendation for an endomycorrhizal product. The product I get is not available unless you are buying in bulk. It is from Premier Tech in Quebec and has 3200 spores per gram glomus intraradices. Off the top of my head I think I paid $450 for 600 grams. I then fine sift sphagnum peatmoss into a powder and mix in the spores at about 250 spores per gram and this is what we use on our farm. I keep the stock spores in the freezer so they should be good for years.

Last year we transplanted 120 twelve foot cedars (these are big hedge type emeralds) and treated the roots with my mix. Astoundingly we lost only 2 trees.

I think the BioAg is a good mix for a variety. The name of the other company with around 160 spores per gram of glomus intraradices escapes me right now. I think KIS carries that brand.

 

[Microbeman]

The type I was thinking of is Mykos - Xtreme gardening but they have so much variation in their ads it is difficult to say what the spore count is. One thing says 80 spores per gram, another idiot says 3000 per 50 ml whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[bigshrimp]

MM

What sort of inoculant would you recommend for combating fungal pathogens? (stem canker)

I have been using lacto b, and am considering picking up a bottle of great white for the trich, & others.

 

[Microbeman]

MM

What sort of inoculant would you recommend for combating fungal pathogens? (stem canker)

I have been using lacto b, and am considering picking up a bottle of great white for the trich, & others.

I'd research getting this or a variation in wettable powder;

http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/rootshield-plus.php

It contains trichoderma in a clay powder base. It can be suspended in water and applied to soil or plants. You can keep it in the freezer, thereby justifying the initial cost. It is a generalist fungal predator and as previously noted plant gaurdian.

We combined it with Actinovate (Streptomyces lydicus) to combat botrytis last season. These are both good to use pro-actively in a new soil mix. They very often (usually) occur naturally in a well-seasoned living soil. Our soil mix was new last season in a new (to us) coastal region so the botrytis snuck up and bit us.

Streptomyces is an Actinobacterial species which was mistaken for fungi by scientists for many years due to its structure. If you have ever experienced the glorious sweet smell of freshly turned or ploughed earth, you can blame actinobacteria for this odor.

 

[dank.frank]

Frank, I sort of thought that the reason why you added the BioAg product.

Yep. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

I just received a PM asking for a recommendation for an endomycorrhizal product. The product I get is not available unless you are buying in bulk. It is from Premier Tech in Quebec and has 3200 spores per gram glomus intraradices. Off the top of my head I think I paid $450 for 600 grams. I then fine sift sphagnum peatmoss into a powder and mix in the spores at about 250 spores per gram and this is what we use on our farm. I keep the stock spores in the freezer so they should be good for years.

I *may* have pointed someone your direction when approached with a similar PM.

That Pro-Mix PUR - is produced by Premier Tech - as are all Pro-Mix products; but you are probably aware of this....albeit, not nearly at the same concentration of which you are purchasing

Glomus intraradices: 80 viable spores/cc (150 viable spores/g)

Is what is in the premier "retail" version of their mcyos...but then.. there is also their other division which is marketed to growers who aren't familiar with the "pro-mix" brand name...Myke Pro products:

http://www.usemykepro.com/myke-pro-mycorrhizae-product.aspx

At any rate...

I think one of the things that amazes me most is how diversified their offerings are simply based on the desired target market of use...marketing is quite amazing.



dank.Frank

 

[VerdantGreen]

Frank, i get the fungus you pictured on the surface of my soil regularly.. but generally it happens when the soil is resting in a bin rather than when it is in a pot with a plant. i associated it with a lack of ventilation at the soil surface - but if thats myco then i have it!

Ras i always knew the answer to my question, i was just trying to get peeps to see the folly in all the arguments and hate that were going on at the time.

VG

 

[bigshrimp]

Its a pin mold not myc, your right VG they love high co2 levels.

They aren't bad or anything.