First grow, not doing well.

[Ez Rider]

BioBizz does not work well in coco. This is from an e-mail exchange I had with the biobizz folks in holland:

"Bio-Grow, Fish-mix and Alg-a-Mic are not working on
coco. This is why we do not have a coco grow schedule. It is nice of your friend
to give us a try, but for sure he will have trouble. He needs a coco A+b
nutrient as a basis, and he can use Bio-Bloom, Bio-heaven, Top-max and
Root-juice as additives. A shame he did not know. Even with an adjusted pH
level, he will not arrive at optimal yield. Sorry to be honest about it!"

Just my $.02

 

[Brugge]

I'll switch to the Canna Coco A+B in a few days (on the road). If they're alive when I get back. Thanks guys.

 

[RoadRash]

I would trash those and start over, using seed starter mix from Miracle Grow or Foxfarms.

To keep production going (if you need the medicine), I would start new seeds in a more benign mix like Foxfarms 'Light'.

(I recently bought Ocean Forest for some seedlings, the guy at the garden center told me about Foxfarm's seedling mix, said Ocean Forest could be too strong for some seedlings.)


They're not dead yet - they want to live. I would transplant the stunted plants into a new grow medium (thought obviously not one that needs a different pH, like rockwool.)

Just being out of that small grow pot and into a bigger grow pot with a new medium/dirt can help plants start growing healthy roots & getting healthy.


If I really wanted to learn from this, I would capture the run-off in a clean jar (from the stunted plant) and ask the guy at the grow store if you can borrow their pH meter.

Just to see what the pH is.

 

[RetroGrow]

Seed Starter Mix is made specifically for starting seeds, and it works better than anything else I have tried, and I have tried them all. Miracle Grow & Foxfarms make the exact same product. Miracle Grow sold @ Home Depot. Then transplant to coco for the best start you can get. Not worth "saving" that plant. A new seedling will blow past it in a week in the proper mix. Canna nutes work fine, but they are expensive and require mixing. Maxibloom has given me better results at much lower prices and easier to use. It's the K.I.S.S. method. Search the KISS thread for the simplest, most foolproof method of coco growing.

 

[papaduc]

Jesus christ.. how many paragraphs in this thread?

This is a very simple problem - a hungry plant. It's hungry because you're feeding it biobizz; which is not designed for coco.

Buy a 1-part starter feed like formulex, vitalink, or cannastart and feed it at 1.0ec and watch your problems disappear.

 

[papaduc]

Not worth "saving" that plant. A new seedling will blow past it in a week in the proper mix.

Some of the advice whacked out on these forums is just scary...

There's no need to throw the plant away, give the right feed and it'll flourish. And when you're in coco you are already in the best starter mix you can get, as long as you feed 1.0ec of veg or first feed.

Feed it properly and watch it grow.

 

[Coconutz]

Yea, ill re-recommend cannastart! Makes shit really simple.
No need for a seedling mix that will only last a week.
Starting in cups isnt a very good idea. You want atleast a 6" pot, but nothing too big.
I use cups to cram clones under my t5 and slow them down a bit...
Just make sure you keep them moist and dont let the coco get dry.

 

[Coconutz]

I will get you through this. We just need some more information before anyone can really make a concrete answer on what the problem is here. My assumption is that it's a little from "column A and a little from column B."

I think it's pretty clear you are working with low light conditions. Possibly fluorescents at too low a wattage just a little too far from the plant? It appears to me that other environmental issues are contributing - like temperature swings in excess of 10 degrees F, or low humidity taxing a young root system trying to provide adequate moisture for transpiration. Cold nights and root zone temperatures under 55 degrees can be a serious contributor to slow growth.

BioBizz Bio Grow is a carbohydrate product made from Sugar Beets. It is not a chemical salt as Coconutz has suggested, while still correct that you don't want to let the nutrients go dry bushed was more in line with the suggestion to change nutrient lines. Coco is an inert medium by default which really defeats the purpose of using the BioBizz nutrient line without also including organic material and microbes to provide nutrition to the plant. While CocOrganics works just fine I don't think it's really all that superior to traditional organic soil and consider coco more of an amendment or base in that purpose. Coco is most effective, with the most vigorous growth rates, when used in true hydroponics and you'll want a salt-based fertilizer to provide nutrition to the plant. Either way, staying with organics or moving into hydroponics, you'll want to add something else to your program.

Everyone has a "brand" favorite with coco coir. The truth of the matter is that none of these brands owns the trees, farms the coconuts, or control the monsoon seasons responsible to wash it clean. It mostly comes out of Sri Lanka, and gets graded and sold to someone with a bag. From brand to brand it's all really similar stuff and I find variation from bag to bag year to year. I've found pristine clean Botanicare CocoGro, and Canna Coco that contained trash, sticks, nuts, flies, and a 2.0ec fresh out of the bag. These products sit sealed up in pretty air tight plastic, on a pallet, in a warehouse, sometimes just in the sun, for weeks or months at a time. It will decomp and it's just impossible to armchair suggest your coco is fine because of the brand. So... After that little rant...

Wash your damn coco. Don't rely on the brand. For seedlings I find that the starting charge of some coco, regardless of brand, CAN be too high. It's not universal but I prefer the peace of mind in rinsing my coco clean and providing it with a healthy 0.6ec charge of a balanced nutrient system from the get go. This is the best way to ensure consistency and success from one grow to the next when starting from seed in coco.

BlackBuds is also onto something with the watering frequency. In sufficient O2 at the root zone (dissolved O2 in the nutrient solution or water) causes Epinasty, or root death. Knowing when to water can be difficult for new gardeners, especially with young plants. I prefer to go by the weight of the container at that size of plant. Water to absolute and complete saturation to the point of runoff, do so slowly to ensure the media is evenly wet. Once drained lift the container and get a feel for the weight. Every day, lift it again and try to feel the weight loss from evaporation and what the plant is consuming (very little at this stage). Once the media feels like it has lost a little bit more than 1/2 the weight go ahead and completely saturate again. This way you won't over water the root system, but you also don't allow the media to dry completely. If you stay with organics you will want to allow the media to get a little less moist between feedings, perhaps just 25% of the original weight before watering again. Always water to complete and even saturation, always.

With a little course correction you can save this plant. It's going to be a long road though and I think if you have more seeds and maybe $40 to dedicate to this I could get you squared with the right stuff and surpassing where you are now in about 2 weeks. Let me know if you want that.

Like I said, I dont know anything about biobizz and from the quick google I did I recommended he switch that out right away for something like cannastart.
I never even claimed it was salt based. Youre talking about 2 seperate posts I made.
Im willing to bet that whatever coco hes using wasnt bufferd with high quality ferts. I would not let that shit dry out. Im sure it wasnt cleared after a couple of waterings.

 

[Tonygreen]

Guys were gonna scare the poor fella.

 

[Tonygreen]

That didn't take long, chill out guys.

nam-myoho-renge-kyo

 

[papaduc]

Guys were gonna scare the poor fella.

I agree. It's hard for a newbie to glean the info to get his grow on track when a simple problem like this has pages and pages of text to read through, and a lot of procedures to follow. It makes growing in general seem quite hard to pick up and just do.

The one thing I want to emphasise is, it's not. It's simple and this problem is an easy one to fix. That's the main thing the op needs to know.

When you start out in canna coco, you've got to feed straight away; that's the main difference between it and compost.

To get the exact level of feed right you need an ec pen, like a bluelab or similar. If you can't afford a bluelab, get something cheap and cheerful from amzon or eby in the meantime.

Then you need a basic bottle of starter feed. You don't need any root tonics or additives.

Use plain water to pop the seedlings open. As soon as they develop their first leaves, start feeding them with every watering.

Make the feed up to the strength of 1.0ec with your base feed and nothing else.

Water them when the top looks quite dry. This is a common sense thing and you don't need to be exact. There's no need to let them dry to the point where they're really light, but you don't need to keep them wet either. You can lift them to ease your curiosity.

You can start them in seed cups or in the 0.7L you are in. Either is good.

If you start in seed cups, they'll dry quicker. If they get stretchy you can and should bury the stem on the next pot up. Roots will grow from it and you will have a more sturdy plant.

If you start in the pots you're in, just one water should last a good few days. Try not to soak the pot every time in this case. Just a couple of hundred ml around the seedling itself is good until it starts growing and searching the pot with it's roots.

After that, you're good.

You can add a root tonic if you want. But if not, just keep feeding the formulex or base veg feed at 1.0ec with nothing else and ph it to 5.6 - 6.2.

I use citric acid to ph because it adds nothing to the ec. Get them anywhere online. Dissolve a pinch in a half cup of hot water and use that to adjust your ph.

The plant should need nothing more than that at any point in veg.

Keep to these basic rules and you will have no more of these problems.

For reference:

This is in a baby in a seed cup, fed on 1.0ec of formulex and under PL2 fluorescent light.



Then it gets moved into the pot you're using. A week later they look like this. It's still on 1.0ec of formulex and under the PL2 fluoro.



Now she gets moved into an 11L pot and put under a 600W bulb.

2 weeks later she looks like this



She's still on 1.0 - 1.2 ec of formulex.

There's nothing else added. Just follow the basics and keep it simple. There's no need for maxibloom recipes, or head formulas, etc etc etc...

Just 1.0ec of veg feed is as keeping it simple as you can get, and it works for everything.

This is a canopy of six or more different strains. All grown following the same basic outline as above. Only this time it's 1.0 ec of bloom feed, and 0.2 of it is made up of PK booster.



Use this post for reference, follow the instructions, and post back in a week or 2 and show us the results.

 

[billgee]

I've been trying to grow some bag seeds. I'm on the third or fourth round. They're all dying. I've made all the mistakes. This last time I got a pH meter and did everything well. Had 3 beautiful seedlings and then my pH meter broke so while waiting for a replacement I'm stuck with some paper strips to measure with 0-14 so not very accurate. Trying to go for a little lower than 6, but not quite 5.

I am growing in Canna Coco and using Bio Bizz Grow + root juice. First time I fed them with nutes about 5 days after they came up I gave them 1.5 ml Bio Bizz Grow with 1000 ml water and about a week later 2 ml with 1000 ml and 1 ml HESI PowerZyme (enzymes). Then they started to go yellow. See picture. They're a month old and I figure it's either nute burn or the enzymes that's killing them. Too early for enzymes?

I've read so many posts and I've got an EC meter on the way and as soon as I get that and the pH meter back I'll get things right. What I really wonder about is if you folks here think there's a chance in hell they'll recover or if I should just kill'em off now?

Another thing I'm a bit unsure about is whether I should water / feed them every day or wait 4-5 days (which it takes for the 0.7L containers I've got them in to go dry on top)?


View Image

KEEP AT IT. IT TAKES TIME AND EFFORT. BABIES & ADOLESCENTS (JUVENILES) ARE VERY IMPORTANT. STOP FEEDING THEM then start very gentle. Theyre kids and babies

 

[ThePizzaMan]

I would just start over. Get some Floranova grow...@ like 1-2ml per gallon...

Thats all you really need.


TpM

 

[RetroGrow]

I would just start over. Get some Floranova grow...@ like 1-2ml per gallon...

Thats all you really need.


TpM

Exactly. Not worth wasting time on that already stunted, sickly plant. Start over and you will have a bigger, healthier seedling in a week. Like I posted before, do not start seedlings in coco, but rather, use Seed Starter Mix from Foxfarms or Miracle Grow, which are sphagnum peat moss, perlite, and mycorrhiza fungi. Experience has taught me that this method of starting seedlings cannot be beaten. It already has all the nutrients the seedling needs to grow and have a strong root system. Having started seedlings in this and in straight coco, I can assure you that this blows any other method of starting away, and it's foolproof. Start in a clear plastic solo cup, 16, or 20 ounces. When cup fills with roots in less than two weeks, transplant to coco, and commence to feeding whatever nutrients you are going to use. You do NOT need to use expensive coco nutrients, as Maxibloom or Floranova work as well or better, and cost only a fraction. See the K.I.S.S. thread. K.I.S.S. stands for "keep it simple, stoner. This is the perfect method for beginners as it's foolproof. Some of the best, most experienced growers on here use it. Oh, and one other thing:ignore papadoc's lecture. He has a pathological need to be "right", and wants everyone to do things "his" way, even though he has never tried seed starter mix, and won't, because he doesn't want to be proven wrong. A simple "side by side" will prove which way works better. I have already done it, so I know which way works better, otherwise i would not recommend it.
http://www.scotts.com/smg/goprod/miracle-gro-seed-starter-potting-soil/prod70340/

 

[ThePizzaMan]

OK....if you are going to go the seed starter mix route...than I'm not sure if you feed that seedling food...that stuff has shit in it already...correct?

If you plan on starting them in coco...which is a great way to do it too...than you will have to feed as soon as you see serrated leaves. The seed has enough food in the cotyledons for the first week or so...and then you want to feed extremely light...and increase as it grows.

either way....I would start over. Then..when you get this down pat...you can get yourself some real proven genetics...and kick things up a bit.

Cheers

TpM

 

[RetroGrow]

That's too funny! The length is mainly due to you being the biggest blowhard on the site, taking something really simple and making it complicated. And one should never use citric acid as a PH adjuster, nor vinegar, as these break down rapidly in solution, and will put your PH out of whack. Use only PH Up & PH Down. So that's one more bit of bad advice from Mr. Knowitall.
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/resources/faqs/ph_dynamics_and_adjustment/

 

[papaduc]

I'm sorry Retro but my results are up there at the top of this page to see.

I've got no intention of getting involved in an argument with you because pictures speak a thousand words and I'm still waiting for one which proves any of the claims you make. I don't want people to do things "my way" I want them to do them the right way; a way that works. These principles aren't my invention, they're those of thousands of growers before me. They're the basics of feeding a plant.

There are heads on this forum who will come in here right now and tell you straight that you're talking shit when you say nothing compares to seedling compost. It's total bs and is the advice of someone who hasn't figured out how to feed a seedling in coco.

And you make the assumption I've never used it. Why?
Of course I've used starter compost, and If you're not getting results just as good in straight coco, you need to go and hone your own basic skills before giving out advice.

It's also complete rubbish you could take an ungerminated seed and make it blow past that in a week. It takes a week just for it to germinate and pop it's first leaves.

And as for Citric acid breaking down quickly, you;re right, it does. So in a water culture you would use the more stable phosphoric acid instead.

But this isn't water culture is it Retro? it's coco. You're free to use citric acid crystals to lower your Ph. I've used it for many years now. Do you think I would not have found out if there was some problem with it?
Citric acid is not vinegar btw.

These snippets highlight a fundamental lack of knowledge and I would advise anyone to get a second opinion on your advice.

I'll put my money where my mouth is right now. If the OP will follow my advice and feed that with 1.0ec of starter food, then on the same day he does that, stick a separate seedling into some starter compost... we will see what the results are in a week.

It will put into perspective your lack of basic gardening knowledge. With any luck, it might even make you take a step back and question your own methods. You never know, you might shed that final bit of compost skin still stuck on your ass and start using coco from the very beginning...

Which will then qualify you to give advice on treating and feeding seedlings in the COCO FORUM.

 

[RetroGrow]

You have never tried the Foxfarms or Miracle Grow Seed Starter Mixes I referenced, as they are not compost, and not available in your country. And I never said vinegar was citric acid. And, my seeds germinate in less than 24 hours, not a week, so apparently you need some work on seed germination too. Less than 24 hours in paper towels, then into Foxfarms Seed Starter mix, which is not compost, but spaghnum peat moss with mycorrhizae. In one week, seedlings germinated thusly will blow past the OPs, and those sorry looking babies you posted. But since you've never tried it, you know not what you speak of. Twisting my words around does not make you right. By the way, coco is a hydro medium, so phosphoric acid is the choice, NOT citric acid. You have to mix it in your water, so regardless of what you say, citric acid will break down, putting the PH out of whack. And coco nutrients are not necessary for coco. They work fine, but are a waste of money, especially for OP who doesn't have a PH pen. The money he could save by using Maxibloom/K.I.S.S. method could pay for a PH pen. I used Canna A/B for years before discovering the K.I.S.S. thread, and made the switch to Maxibloom, and not only saved money, but got healthier, more vigorous plants.
The K.I.S.S. thread, one of the best threads on this most excellent forum, especially good for newbies. Cheap, foolproof, and simple. No mixing necessary, and PH stabilized:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191645
No need at all for all the unnecessary steps/expense you recommended to a newbie. Op, put your seeds in paper towels, wet, and put paper towel in ziplock bag. Place in a warm dark place. I'm guessing you don't have a heat mat, but you can place the ziplock bag on top of any appliance that's warm. On top of the refrigerator or any appliance/surface that is warm. Fresh seeds will germinate in less than 24 hours, then make a small indentation in Foxfarms Seed Starter Mix with a pen or something similar, and place germinated seedling in the hole you just created. In a week you will have nice roots, as the seed starter mix has root food in it. Impossible to screw up. When your clear solo cup fills up with roots, in about 10 days, transplant to coco. I have only done this a thousand times, so I'm pretty sure it works. And get a PH pen with the money you save by not buying expensive Canna nutes. PH pen/meter is not an optional thing. It is necessary. PH to 5.8, and you are good to go. Tap water is all that is needed, as it contains calcium. No need to buy RO water or CalMag.
Keep it simple, and you cannot fail, because it really is simple. Maxibloom all the way through the grow is all you need.

 

[papaduc]

I'm not wasting my time arguing with you Retro. I can tell clearly from how you talk that you know the bare basic amount to get you through. I'll correct your misinformation, and then you're free to carry on with yourself...

What you're talking about is a basic seed starter mix which is available in every country. Some are better than others...

This is the coco forum. Not the peat moss forum, not the anything else forum. It's for people who want to know how to grow using coco. Not be advised to throw their plants away and go and buy a bag of starter compost.

Anyone can start in seedling mix if they want to hold off from learning how to feed in coco.

Otherwise feed 1.0ec from the start and watch them explode.

 

[billgee]

Another thing I'm a bit unsure about is whether I should water / feed them every day or wait 4-5 days (which it takes for the 0.7L containers I've got them in to go dry on top)?


View Image

Its a mantra: Water them every day or Water Coco every day.
repeat incessantly
Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day Every day