What's Going On With My Plants? (coco) (pt 2)

[Bad Habits]

Strain: Alphakronik Las Vegas Purple Kush BX

Sprouted: 12/30

Medium: Botanicare Aeration Readygro coco (pre-rinsed and charged)

Temperature: 70-80f

Humidity: 25-30 (I know it's low... I try and mist em every once in awhile...)

Nutrients/Watering: usually about every 24 hours to about 10-15% runoff

First week: PHed water only
2nd week: 6/9 micro/bloom formula @ 1/2 strength, 5.9-6.1PH, 220-280ppm
3rd week: same
Around 1/18 the leaves started drooping and curling inwards, on 1/18 and 1/19 I just gave them 6.0 PHed water only, let them dry out more than usual and skipped a day of watering, then this morning gave them 1/2 strength nutes again. Problem is just getting worse though it appears.

Haven't measured the runoff yet unfortunately... I know that's probably the first thing I should be doing just been at work too much and usually water them in a hurry before running out the door.

 

[ph0r2102]

looks like an unhealthy underdeveloped root system now vulnerable to a mass of disease/pest and nutrient issues.. staying damp/soggy in the heart of those cups? cold roots?

 

[smailer]

looks like an unhealthy underdeveloped root system now vulnerable to a mass of disease/pest and nutrient issues.. staying damp/soggy in the heart of those cups? cold roots?

I must agree with ph0r2102
Stop watering plants, your roots is damaged, P uptake is embarrassing.
(usually when I see same pics runoff have a lower pH than initial watering nutes)

Let to dry your coco, and don't take too much care for plants. Because too often conditions changing is not good for your weed.

 

[otis33]

many people say you can't over water coco; with a fully developed root system, this is pretty much true. however, in the beginning you want to let the coco dry out to encourage the roots to fill out the container. after roots are established, water/ feed as much as you want. after the first week or so, you don't want the coco to dry out as it will cause salt build up leading to moret problems. it looks like they are over watered. I'm far from a pro, so hopefully some more experienced growers will pipe up... I've been wrong before. good luck!

 

[Bad Habits]

So here they are at day 30... growth is super slow, and leaves are always droopy like that. Since my first post in the thread, I watered them with 3ml/gal micro and 4.5ml/gal bloom on 1/21, then again on 1/23 (48 hours between waterings). PH was 5.9 and PPM was 240, water temp 68f.

Looks like probably nute lockout and salt buildup?? Should these be flushed?

looks like an unhealthy underdeveloped root system now vulnerable to a mass of disease/pest and nutrient issues.. staying damp/soggy in the heart of those cups? cold roots?

Ya I think I was overwatering... was watering about once every 24 hours, but the top of the soil was generally mostly dry. I'm guessing the rest wasn't dry enough though so it probably got soggy and damp in the heart. Don't think the roots are cold though...

I must agree with ph0r2102
Stop watering plants, your roots is damaged, P uptake is embarrassing.
(usually when I see same pics runoff have a lower pH than initial watering nutes)

Let to dry your coco, and don't take too much care for plants. Because too often conditions changing is not good for your weed.

Only been watering them once every 48 hours for the last 3 waterings now.

many people say you can't over water coco; with a fully developed root system, this is pretty much true. however, in the beginning you want to let the coco dry out to encourage the roots to fill out the container. after roots are established, water/ feed as much as you want. after the first week or so, you don't want the coco to dry out as it will cause salt build up leading to moret problems. it looks like they are over watered. I'm far from a pro, so hopefully some more experienced growers will pipe up... I've been wrong before. good luck!

I suspect this is the heart of the issue. My larger plants in coco have zero problem being watered every day and never have droopy leaves. I think I was probably too overzealous with watering these in the beginning because of misinterpreting "you can't overwater in coco" - like you said I think in the beginning before they have established root mass this isn't true.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Looks like VPD aggravated symptoms of something else.

With the humidity that low, you DEFINATELY have some VPD going on. Plants stop transpiring/drinking, and leaves start to droop like that. As they stop drinking, adding more food just fucks em up more.


Vapor Pressure Deficit. There are some really good threads on this site, check em out.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Raise your humidity (get a fogger, humidifier, something) and set it so your intake/exhaust fans arent on at the same time as your fogger.

 

[StChristopher]

I use the same coco mix, I water 5 times a day. On the bag it tells you to water 4 times a day does it not? I have never in years of using coco "over watered" any girls of mine. As long as you have good drainage it should never be a problem.

Water kinda of water are use using? I use GH at the same ratio as you but I need my base water(RO water +4ml cal/mg) at 300 ppm, then my nutes brings me up to 550ppm 1/2g of epson salt puts me at 600ppm or 1.2ec.

If I dont do this I have plants that are stunted out and look like yours. Been their done that to many damn times. Every one say GH has all the Cal and Mg a plant needs and I believed that my first year of growing. For me I have to add cal and Mg.

 

[Coconutz]

Too much perlite, not enough water
peace

 

[Bad Habits]

Looks like VPD aggravated symptoms of something else.

With the humidity that low, you DEFINATELY have some VPD going on. Plants stop transpiring/drinking, and leaves start to droop like that. As they stop drinking, adding more food just fucks em up more.


Vapor Pressure Deficit. There are some really good threads on this site, check em out.

Raise your humidity (get a fogger, humidifier, something) and set it so your intake/exhaust fans arent on at the same time as your fogger.

Thanks for stopping in Dabs! I remember in your thread you dealing with VPD issues as well. Looks like you got it all sorted out with your fogger disk things right? For the space I currently have I really don't any room for a mister, so I think I'll just have to constantly mist with with a spray bottle until I get my larger room completed.

I use the same coco mix, I water 5 times a day. On the bag it tells you to water 4 times a day does it not? I have never in years of using coco "over watered" any girls of mine. As long as you have good drainage it should never be a problem.

Water kinda of water are use using? I use GH at the same ratio as you but I need my base water(RO water +4ml cal/mg) at 300 ppm, then my nutes brings me up to 550ppm 1/2g of epson salt puts me at 600ppm or 1.2ec.

If I dont do this I have plants that are stunted out and look like yours. Been their done that to many damn times. Every one say GH has all the Cal and Mg a plant needs and I believed that my first year of growing. For me I have to add cal and Mg.

Thanks for the response man!

hmm don't see on the bag anywhere to water 4x/day.

I'm using plain tap water, which is around 7-8ph and 20ppm. I add the nutes then PH up/down accordingly. For half strength 6/9 I usually end up with a 230-240ppm.

You bring up a very interesting point about the calmag. For my first batch of 5, I am doing floranova gro/calmag at about a 1:1 ratio, and adding in rapid start. They got stunted and deformed like this a bit in the first month, but since then they have taken off and look great.

Most people on here said the calmag is unnecessary, and to just do the 6/9 formula and keep it simple. Decided since it's the same strain and conditions I would do my first batch of 5 with the gro/calmag and 2nd batch of 5 with the 6/9 formula.

Would you mind telling me how exactly you schedule your feedings? Like week 1, 2, 3, etc etc and how much you use of each thing. That would be much appreciated man.

Too much perlite, not enough water
peace

I'd say it's about a 1:3 cocoerlite ratio... do you think just straight coco is better?

 

[Coconutz]

I use coco with chips or pure coco.
Seedlings are going to be hard to keep happy in an aeration formula!
You need to water often with that much perlite and with nutes thats gotta be tough with seedlings.
I think its making it much more difficult!
I use a small pot or a cup and water once a day with 1/2 strength and they do great.
I used to have all the problems in the world with seedlings, too!
Dont feel bad... Once you get it dialed it will be automatic!

 

[StChristopher]

Sorry your correct, I havnt looked at the bags in a year or two but looks as if they changed the bag. But on their website it say this
Directions: Hydrogardens

Fill pot or container with ReadyGro™ soilless mix and place in hydrogarden.
Fully hydrate ReadyGro™ with nutrient solution.
Plant seeds or transplant seedling plug into ReadyGro™.
Water with plant nutrients 4-6 times per day.
Periodically leach out excess nutrient salts in media with Botanicare™ Clearex™ salt leaching solution, or pure water.

LOL just remember what I post is MY exp in MY garden. Their are so many different factors that that can change things from garden to garden.

For me its real simple as feeding goes. I dont go off any weekly schedule. Just go off the plant.
Basicaly start with 5 ml calmg/gal in RO (ph to 5.8) water from germ till they show signs of hunger around day 10-14.
Then 3/4.5 GH M/B with base tap at 300ppm and I add 1/2 to 1g of epson for Mg to get a 600ppm mix.
I use this in Veg i if they show signs of hunger I bring my ppm up to 650-700 (1.3-1.4 ec)
For Flowering the same but I add 2ml/gal koolbloom around 3rd week thur week 6.
Then I drop the micro in week 7 and 8
Flush

But you have to read the plants sometimes I have to drop the micro down a bit in flowering.

Just a few points I would like to put out their, and again I'm not trying start a pissing match with any one. These point I have found IN MY GARDEN you may have way different results in yours.

I have yet to grow a stain that could handle any thing over 1000ppm (.5 scale)
Most of my plants do great at low ppms 500-850ppm

I always have to add Cal & Mg.... tho not as much Cal as Mg

I love Botanicare CNS17 Bloom-----> For Veg and Flower......which brings me to th next point

Maxibloom------>For Veg and Flower

I find I get much better results with either one of those than I do on the 6/9 GH ratio

Maxibloom at 2g/gal with 1g/gal epson Base water 300ppm feed at 5.8ph every 3 hours lights on 20/4

CSN17 bud porn

 

[Coconutz]

Think your tap might be a bit strong for 6/9 starting at 300...
My total feed with 6/9 is 600ppm(ro water w/soft micro).
Id be surprised if they took the 4-6 times a day directions off of the bag.
Thats lame if they did...

 

[SPG*]

Looks like cold.Keep lights off temps up and fondle them as less as poss until bigger

 

[StChristopher]

Think your tap might be a bit strong for 6/9 starting at 300...
My total feed with 6/9 is 600ppm(ro water w/soft micro).
Id be surprised if they took the 4-6 times a day directions off of the bag.
Thats lame if they did...

Oh my water is RO I add Cal/mg till 300. If I back down under 300 I always end up with a cal def around the 2nd week of flower.

Iv tried RO and 6/9 didn't work well for me. But I'v seen grow log where that is spot on so I know it works, just not 4 me.

Ya I went and looked at my bag and didn't find 4-6 times a day. Which surprised me.

But now I just buy a bag of chunky coco and fiber coco, mix it and that gives me about the same aeration as the Botanicare at 1/4 the price. Tho I have to rinse and soak now (that sucks ass)where Botanicare I could use straight out the bag. Like to add I stay away from the ground coco that holds to much water for my liking.

 

[Bad Habits]

I use coco with chips or pure coco.
Seedlings are going to be hard to keep happy in an aeration formula!
You need to water often with that much perlite and with nutes thats gotta be tough with seedlings.
I think its making it much more difficult!
I use a small pot or a cup and water once a day with 1/2 strength and they do great.
I used to have all the problems in the world with seedlings, too!
Dont feel bad... Once you get it dialed it will be automatic!

Thanks for the input Coconutz. ya I think at least for seedlings maybe I need to switch from the aeration formula to maybe just straight coco with pearlite. Time for some more experimenting

Sorry your correct, I havnt looked at the bags in a year or two but looks as if they changed the bag. But on their website it say this
Directions: Hydrogardens

Fill pot or container with ReadyGro™ soilless mix and place in hydrogarden.
Fully hydrate ReadyGro™ with nutrient solution.
Plant seeds or transplant seedling plug into ReadyGro™.
Water with plant nutrients 4-6 times per day.
Periodically leach out excess nutrient salts in media with Botanicare™ Clearex™ salt leaching solution, or pure water.

LOL just remember what I post is MY exp in MY garden. Their are so many different factors that that can change things from garden to garden.

For me its real simple as feeding goes. I dont go off any weekly schedule. Just go off the plant.
Basicaly start with 5 ml calmg/gal in RO (ph to 5.8) water from germ till they show signs of hunger around day 10-14.
Then 3/4.5 GH M/B with base tap at 300ppm and I add 1/2 to 1g of epson for Mg to get a 600ppm mix.
I use this in Veg i if they show signs of hunger I bring my ppm up to 650-700 (1.3-1.4 ec)
For Flowering the same but I add 2ml/gal koolbloom around 3rd week thur week 6.
Then I drop the micro in week 7 and 8
Flush

But you have to read the plants sometimes I have to drop the micro down a bit in flowering.

Just a few points I would like to put out their, and again I'm not trying start a pissing match with any one. These point I have found IN MY GARDEN you may have way different results in yours.

I have yet to grow a stain that could handle any thing over 1000ppm (.5 scale)
Most of my plants do great at low ppms 500-850ppm

I always have to add Cal & Mg.... tho not as much Cal as Mg

I love Botanicare CNS17 Bloom-----> For Veg and Flower......which brings me to th next point

Maxibloom------>For Veg and Flower

I find I get much better results with either one of those than I do on the 6/9 GH ratio

Maxibloom at 2g/gal with 1g/gal epson Base water 300ppm feed at 5.8ph every 3 hours lights on 20/4

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question man!

Ya just looking at pictures it would appear they are deficient in both cal and mag, but I am far from an expert and there could definitely be multiple other variables that are wrong/affecting the plant.

I kinda like your idea of doing 6/9 and adding in the calmag. Wondering if I should give this a shot for a few days and see if they respond to it???

Looks like cold.Keep lights off temps up and fondle them as less as poss until bigger

Ya I definitely keep fondling to a minimum... really don't fuk with them at all unless I'm watering them. And I don't think it's cold temps... never really drops below 65 and for those I have the lights on 24/7 so it's usually in the mid-upper 70s. Thanks for the response man.

Oh my water is RO I add Cal/mg till 300. If I back down under 300 I always end up with a cal def around the 2nd week of flower.

Iv tried RO and 6/9 didn't work well for me. But I'v seen grow log where that is spot on so I know it works, just not 4 me.

Ya I went and looked at my bag and didn't find 4-6 times a day. Which surprised me.

But now I just buy a bag of chunky coco and fiber coco, mix it and that gives me about the same aeration as the Botanicare at 1/4 the price. Tho I have to rinse and soak now (that sucks ass)where Botanicare I could use straight out the bag. Like to add I stay away from the ground coco that holds to much water for my liking.

Interesting.... Good input right here!

 

[SPG*]

Hmm,let them sleep 6 hours a day

 

[Coconutz]

btw, are you using gh hardwater or softwater micro?
The softwater version is equal parts Ca/N...
Thats so much its ridiculous!
Adding any calmag at all would actually give you more Ca than total N!
That would probably mess with mg and a bunch of cations, especially once the ca bank is filled by the coco

From H3ad
So... when I was using a modified lucas formula... my nutrient profile when growing in promix was:
N 130
P 93
K 163
Mg 64
S 43
Ca 130

By mixing 8ml/gal micro and 14ml/gal bloom and watering with plain water every other watering...

In the coco, I am now using 6ml/gal micro and 9ml/gal bloom which gives the nute profile:
N 97
P 60
K 105
Mg 41
S 27
Ca 97

 

[Bad Habits]

So 2 days ago (1/25) I gave them a compost tea with bat guano, worm castings, molasses, beneficial micro organisms, etc that my friend gave me for them. Not exactly sure of all of the ingredients/amounts lol.

So here they are at day 31ish 2 days after the tea. Don't appear to be much different...

Decided to add in 4ml calmag/gallon to their 6/9 feeding at half strength, which gave me 300ppm after PHing it to 6. Also got around to checking their runoffs for the first time:
#7: 5.9ph, 450ppm
#8: 6.2, 420ppm
#9: 5.8ph, 440ppm
#10: 6.4ph, 370ppm

Does this tell you guys anything?

Also decided to yank one of them out and transplant them to see if it was root bound, considering my first batch of 5 were all transplanted right around the 1 month mark and were ready to go. Here's what the root mass looked like on that one I pulled tonight:

Roots are pretty thick there at the bottom, but not as much at the top. would you guys say it was ready to transplant???

Really hoping the calmag helps with these guys... fuk. Can't wait to see what coconutz has to say and tell me how wrong I am and scold me

Meanwhile here's my first batch of 5 that are currently on 5ml calmag, 4.5ml floranova grow and 2ml rapidstart (per gallon) right after watering em today. They have all been topped and LSTed. They seem to be doin pretty well.

Hmm,let them sleep 6 hours a day

Was gonna do that as soon as I transplant em into bigger containers

btw, are you using gh hardwater or softwater micro?
The softwater version is equal parts Ca/N...
Thats so much its ridiculous!
Adding any calmag at all would actually give you more Ca than total N!
That would probably mess with mg and a bunch of cations, especially once the ca bank is filled by the coco

Doesn't say on the bottle, so whatever the "normal" one is.
The micro is 5-0-1 and the bloom is 0-5-4

 

[drgr33nuk]

All that root at the bottom of the pot would suggest that you are actually under watering. Coco can hold around 69% water so its real hard to over water. Check your ph meter for a start and calibrate it. Next those plants are to young to take to much cal/mag and it will force potassium from the coco and probably upset your plants more. I would say its actually a environmental or a root issue due to the plants looking very upset and not just showing signs of a deficiency? Is your coco correctly buffered ? Bad quality coco would cause these issues for sure due to the excessive sodium / potassium content and the cation exchange between the potassium in the coco and the mag/cal that is in the nutrients. Hope you get to the bottom of this