Are benificials really helpful in hydro?

[mtlakehydro]

lets look at what the bigboys have to offer.



Gen hydro subculture M - in easy to understand terms look at it like this. This product is fungi that will colonize a web around your plants roots and the medium . In soil this is beneficial because of the lack of contact with water and minerals. So this web of fungi help soil plants pull in what they want. In hydro I would suggest that's not very helpful because the plants roots in hydro always have access to water and nutirents.

Gen hydro subculture B - This product is to add beneficial bacteria into you new system. Then the good bacteria will out number the bad. Well I think this is all together wrong. Its like this we all take showers right. This is to cut down on the amount of bacteria we have. No one goes around and says I am not showering because I am creating a good host for beneficial bacteria. No we kill them. It that simple. I would suggest that its actually getting in the way of running a sterile system to prevent fungi and bacteria. That's what we really want anyway. Your thoughts anyone ?

 

[JohnQQ]

Hi mtlakehydro,

Interesting ideas but I, from a theoretical perspective, have to disagree.

I'm not an expert in botany much less horticulture, but there are a few important points to consider.

1. Mycorrhizal fungi have symbiotically developed with plants over millions upon millions of years. You're correct in that they form symbiotic relationships with plants, but I disagree that they aren't helpful in hydro.
>>>The plant's roots grow and seek out nutrients
OR
>>>Mycorrhizal fungi "infect" these roots (ecto- or endomycorrhizal fungi operate in different ways, but for cannabis cultivation, I would think endomycorrhizal fungi would be preferable)
>>>The plant now gains a sort of increased "active surface area" and can absorb more nutrients than normal roots could
>>>Plant achieves a net benefit from increased "active surface area" and sometimes gets the benefit of pest resistance from the mycorrhizal fungi (ex: nematodes captured by hyphae)

**HOWEVER**

As we know, not all products are equal. Some companies use propagules and others use spores. Results WILL vary since we're dealing with biological organisms.

Regarding the bacteria though, I agree, but for different reasons.
The analogy used isn't quite right. We don't really have beneficials (that I know of) for our external body that we can "cultivate." We shower to prevent pathogens from breeding too well. Kind of an apples to oranges thing in this case. Also, since cannabis tends to prefer more acidic environments (which mycorrhizal fungi tend to create during their existence) and bacteria prefer more basic soil, I would think excessively cultivating bacteria might be counter-productive.

This is the beauty of organics though. You're letting a micro-ecosystem take care of itself, albeit in an unconventional way if going DWC or something similar.

(Full disclosure: I'm working in organic soil and coco which will hopefully develop into a full coirganics project)

 

[Eighths-n-Aces]

I would suggest that its actually getting in the way of running a sterile system

i would say that the words sterile and organics don't belong together anyway. nothing against hydro but some nice dirty life filled dirt is the only thing i see as really organic.

soil microbes don't live in lakes

 

[wantaknow]

I ill the beasties ,in hydro setup ,using pool shock ,one gram to a gallon to start with then 10 oz of mix per 55 gal rez ,soi say no ,don't want the brown sludge ,

 

[mtlakehydro]

Lets chat about it

Lets chat about it

Hi mtlakehydro,

Interesting ideas but I, from a theoretical perspective, have to disagree.

I'm not an expert in botany much less horticulture, but there are a few important points to consider.

1. Mycorrhizal fungi have symbiotically developed with plants over millions upon millions of years. You're correct in that they form symbiotic relationships with plants, but I disagree that they aren't helpful in hydro.
>>>The plant's roots grow and seek out nutrients
OR
>>>Mycorrhizal fungi "infect" these roots (ecto- or endomycorrhizal fungi operate in different ways, but for cannabis cultivation, I would think endomycorrhizal fungi would be preferable)
>>>The plant now gains a sort of increased "active surface area" and can absorb more nutrients than normal roots could
>>>Plant achieves a net benefit from increased "active surface area" and sometimes gets the benefit of pest resistance from the mycorrhizal fungi (ex: nematodes captured by hyphae)

**HOWEVER**

As we know, not all products are equal. Some companies use propagules and others use spores. Results WILL vary since we're dealing with biological organisms.

Regarding the bacteria though, I agree, but for different reasons.
The analogy used isn't quite right. We don't really have beneficials (that I know of) for our external body that we can "cultivate." We shower to prevent pathogens from breeding too well. Kind of an apples to oranges thing in this case. Also, since cannabis tends to prefer more acidic environments (which mycorrhizal fungi tend to create during their existence) and bacteria prefer more basic soil, I would think excessively cultivating bacteria might be counter-productive.

This is the beauty of organics though. You're letting a micro-ecosystem take care of itself, albeit in an unconventional way if going DWC or something similar.

(Full disclosure: I'm working in organic soil and coco which will hopefully develop into a full coirganics project)

Think of it like this. In soil the plant needs all of that extra surface area to absorb water and nutrients. In hydroponics the plants are directly in the nutrient solution. Our goal then is to allow the plants to absorb these nutrients as efficiently as possible without the possible attack from bad bacteria and fungi.
When You have a hydroponic nutrient solution that has the right mineral elements, oxygen, temps, ph . I would say that's why plants grow faster and yield larger in hydroponics than organics. This is subject to grower but I think is true. So then I would propose that if you want organic then you need good soil and all it has to offer. If you want hydroponics and want it to be organic that is a tall order, but possible. I would then say you would need the minerals already broken down by the bacteria and fungi into usable minerals. Then once you have this mineral nutrient you could run this in a sterile hydroponic system and the plant would be getting all of the required mineral nutrition all the while running a sterile system the would prevent possible bad bacteria and fungal growth.

I would love to hear your thoughts in this, This is how we grow together to be even better than alone. Teamwork ! I certainly don't know everything and its common for me to make mis statements due to my lack of any formal training in plant botany or hydroponics.

Peace!

 

[mtlakehydro]

i would say that the words sterile and organics don't belong together anyway. nothing against hydro but some nice dirty life filled dirt is the only thing i see as really organic.

soil microbes don't live in lakes

I agree on some levels, but I am researching different possibilities and the comments others make are helpful sometimes in this research . Thanks for yours.

Peace

 

[120Octane]

The myco if needed is a tricky one for hydro because it is submerged on the roots of a plant. Some say t can live underwater some say it cannot.

There are other species and sub strain that are in the benificial catagory and one is Bacillus thuringiensis. do you realize this will kill spier mites? There are many types of Bacillus or strains wich you prefer. They are bacteria and provide alot of benifits that most do not thing about. Alot of the bacteria that are used in beni products are the reason why pythium can be taken down and other issues. Another thing is gnats in soil, get a mosquito dunk and crush it, put it in your watering can and apply it. The mosquito dunks have another strain of Bacillus.

 

[120Octane]

This is kind of a tough read at first alot said in little words, but if can grasp this then you will have a important "key" to growing wether it is hydro or soil. This is where plant life comes from, and why

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrification

 

[120Octane]

Look into bio bckets, using a surface like say lava rock, that is kept wet but not submerged and allows for propagation of beni's in a system. You can run in a dead res I have done it. When you run a dead res its tough because you have nothing to compete with what ever gets into the water. When you have bacteria ect then they are able to overcome and not allow for things to grow that you do not want.

Bacteria is the key, they are your personal army to take care of your girls in ways you cannot, well you can but by the time you see a problem its already has a foot hold and is going to be hard to deal with. Look into ORCA it is a beni product without trich made just for hydro systems. Look for the ingrediants and read on those.

 

[richyrich]

They absolutely are.

Can't tell if you have root rot or the brown slime algae, come on in ?!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=282319


GOT SLIME? Slime Haters Club (part 2 to Strange Slime build up on roots)
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=282376

 

[Finklsteinshtkd]

Yea one of the main reason to use bennies in hydro is to keep from getting slimed or anything else related to bad bacteria. If you innoculate with bennies, have a place for them to live and keep good DO levels then youll never get slimed and you wont need to dump your res every week or two.

Dead, sterile res's are the wrong approach IMHO, they cause problems and waste nutes. I go about six months without dumping my res and i just do add backs with no problems.