GreenDream
Member
No, not just bottles. It's listed on the bulk bags of amendments as well. I cited the Cal-Phos 0-3-0 earlier. Soil amendments are most certainly nutrients, though at this point I think we are simply arguing semantics.
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Super Soil, Tea, Sythentic Nutes
- Thread starter Chunky Dixel
- Start date
No, not just bottles. It's listed on the bulk bags of amendments as well. I cited the Cal-Phos 0-3-0 earlier. Soil amendments are most certainly nutrients, though at this point I think we are simply arguing semantics.
nutrients = directly available to the plant
amendments = must be "processed" by microbial life in soil in order to be available
that's generally my understanding of it.
E
Eureka Springs Organics
GreenDream
Member
Nearly all organics have both available nutrients and nutrients that[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]must be "processed" by microbial life in the soil in order to be available. Therefore they have both nutrients and amendments, and we are just arguing semantics.
Cal Phos (the example I keep referencing) is 3% available and up to 35% unavailable, that must be worked by microbes. Most "amendments" are like this... nearly all the nutrients are unavailable (usually higher than 90%) like you say, but there is usually also an available amount that is listed on the label as P2O5. The only ones I have found so far that do not list an available amount are greensand, oystershell, and one brand of steamed bonemeal, and I might be wrong about the greensand. (I need to go to the shop and double check.)
Would you consider blood meal to be an amendment? How about bat guano? I would really like to know!
Cal Phos (the example I keep referencing) is 3% available and up to 35% unavailable, that must be worked by microbes. Most "amendments" are like this... nearly all the nutrients are unavailable (usually higher than 90%) like you say, but there is usually also an available amount that is listed on the label as P2O5. The only ones I have found so far that do not list an available amount are greensand, oystershell, and one brand of steamed bonemeal, and I might be wrong about the greensand. (I need to go to the shop and double check.)
Would you consider blood meal to be an amendment? How about bat guano? I would really like to know!
E
Eureka Springs Organics
Blood meal and bat guano are amendments. Regardless of a label(which is just made up by humans) The nutrients are not available to the plant until the microbes do their thing.
A plant doesn't care about a label. Only humans do. A label can say all day that this is available, but it will not be in a bio-available form until the microbes do their thing.
The label means nothing to a plant.
GreenDream
Member
If that were true, you could pour cups of nitro bat, blood meal, seabird guano, chicken manure, etc... on a small plant being grown in sterilized soil and nothing would happen. I know for a fact that's not true.
Anyway I'm done with this. I really can't discuss this with you anymore because I am afraid I will start sounding like I have attitude. I have said my piece, and anyone reading this can take what they want from it. Have a good day, and best of luck to you in the future.
Anyway I'm done with this. I really can't discuss this with you anymore because I am afraid I will start sounding like I have attitude. I have said my piece, and anyone reading this can take what they want from it. Have a good day, and best of luck to you in the future.
actually, one of the things i & other no-till/recyclers don;t like about blood meal or bat guano as amendments is the high level of already soluble nutrients. Too much soluble nutes negates the need for the microbes {soil food web} that living soil gardeners wish to cultivate ~one of the things we prefer about less soluble sources. I see, typing this post ~it is a difficult thing to put in to words.
An illustration, blood meal has a shit-ton of readily available nitrogen {probably the worst example since N tends to be quite soluble anyway} nonetheless, as organic gardeners have always cautioned being careful w/ blood meal so it doesn't burn your roots ~it becomes the consumate "extreme example" for just this kind of point. ~it is however the same for "hi-P" guano, much of that P is readily available 'right now just like it is' when you apply the guano ~and that presents an immediate concern since high P levels are hostile to mycorrhiza
This is the distinction which divides the "bottled nute" organic grower from the living soil gardener. The living soil gardener wants root exudates and soil micro-life to do the heavy lifting. The bottled nute grower still thinks in terms of NPK and ratios and measuring out soluble nutes {doing things like varying ratios for various life cycles of the plant}
the living soil gardener likes to think that the plant knows how to feed itself given the proper environment {one where it isn't being force-fed}
An illustration, blood meal has a shit-ton of readily available nitrogen {probably the worst example since N tends to be quite soluble anyway} nonetheless, as organic gardeners have always cautioned being careful w/ blood meal so it doesn't burn your roots ~it becomes the consumate "extreme example" for just this kind of point. ~it is however the same for "hi-P" guano, much of that P is readily available 'right now just like it is' when you apply the guano ~and that presents an immediate concern since high P levels are hostile to mycorrhiza
This is the distinction which divides the "bottled nute" organic grower from the living soil gardener. The living soil gardener wants root exudates and soil micro-life to do the heavy lifting. The bottled nute grower still thinks in terms of NPK and ratios and measuring out soluble nutes {doing things like varying ratios for various life cycles of the plant}
the living soil gardener likes to think that the plant knows how to feed itself given the proper environment {one where it isn't being force-fed}
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I was excited to come into this thread and read the discussion and the possibility of seeing if what I have been doing for several years is semi organic as I like to call it. And if anyone else is doing something similar with great results. I hate it when people walk away without resolution. I do not understand with this whole organic world it is all in or nothing. For so many years people have used nothing but synthetics whether it was store bought soil or general fertilizer. There was no internet or readily available studies on microbes. Yes things have evolved and I totally agree about the stores and allot of companies out there.
I have grown in so many ways over the years. Ive lived and learned the whole way. I can honestly say Im happy with every aspect of my grows now and I will put my flowers up against any flowers out there in a lab, taste test or any other test.
I first learned about tea reading a thread about using it in DWC to combat brown slim/root rot. Seeing how it prevented these conditions in water I said why not try it in the soil I was using at the time to see what happens.
So I took all the used soil I had piled up everywhere and made 4x8 beds. Put all the used soil in there. Said what can I add to these beds to amend them. After extensive study and research and sense these beds were only going to be for flowering to be perpetual I decided on these three things. Organicare Bloom, Epsom Starter Plus, Dolomite lime.
Every week I take a 4x8 amend the beds with these three products. 8 cups OB, 4 cups ESP, and 2 cups DL. I have been doing this with these beds now for 5 years. The plants get put right in. I believe the mycro life is a buffer for the plants they take up what they need and the rest doesn't bother them. If I try to use any bottled Humic or Fulvic in any way its too much. Even Sea Green. There is too much uptake and I get curl. But If I do the mix and only the mix Im talking about everything goes perfect. Any Strain.
Always my ash is always perfectly white. I have received tons of compliments over the years from many organic growers whom Ive given flowers too. That's enough for me. Quantity and Quality are through the roof.
I give tea,food,tea,food. And a the last two weeks of any strain I do just molasses water only. No PH no TDS nothing.
My "Food" Flowering consists of.
@5 ml per gallon
Flora Nova Bloom
GH CalMag from their organic line.
Liquid Kool Bloom
@2 ml per gallon
Si
Enzyms
Carb
Weeks 4 & 5 only
@1 ml per gallon
Bloombastic
Ive never had better results with such an easy mix. Ive used everything under the sun.
Except for going as far as making a super soil. Or going no till. I do actually till in all leaves and old roots from the previous plants into the beds. Do I believe my soil is alive yes. Do I think that some of the salts hinder the microbes a bit. But Im adding them so often that they are taking a foot hold and protecting my roots keeping away the bad things like bugs and pathogens yes. They are handling the uptake and the ph.
My tea is brewed perpetually means I keep topping it off. I do not have a microscope but I know the results have been astronomical.
The tea I brew on and on.
EWC Ancient forest
Molasses
MycroGrow
I do this in a 5 gallon bucket I pour off (leaving the sludge at the bottom to keep the batch going) into a 55 gallon barrel add 12 oz of molasses and water with a PUMP and wand. Ive smelt tea that has gone bad. Wheather I didn't keep molasses in the mix or the air pump died or got unplugged and Its horrible and my perpetual tea never gets like that.
Im on a year batch now. I even been replacing MycroGrow recently with Caps Og Bio War products and I like them and I think he is a cool kat and he has always answered my questions.
How I veg is in 1 gallon nursery pots. One bucket has the bottom cut out of it. I place the bottomless bucket inside of another that is not cut. I do this because when I move them to flower I just take off the outter bucket exposing the inner bottomless bucket hense the roots and I site it down on my amended flowering tables and they take off. The same day I take the finished plants out. No stress they root down into the tables and go crazy. I do no transition food either. They get the bloom food the same day of transplant. The finished buckets I rip them off the 4x8 tables leaving the roots in the table to be turned in while the soil in the buckets I recycle for the next round of baby's coming out of the dome.
While in veg they receive a sprinkle of Cap's Veg pak for transplant from the dome to the buckets and thats it.
The veg food. DTW Every Monday I make this I Top off water only untill the following Monday then I add this mix again.
@5ml per gallon
Flora Nova Grow
@2ml per gallon
B vitamins
Carbs
Enzyms
The only other thing I do is foliar once or twice a week with diluted tea. I catch all My AC water and that's all I use have been doing this for 13 plus years. Every now and then I need a little R/O but not too often.
Im open to criticism I would love to learn how I could make this mix any better. I love to experiment and learn new things.
I have grown in so many ways over the years. Ive lived and learned the whole way. I can honestly say Im happy with every aspect of my grows now and I will put my flowers up against any flowers out there in a lab, taste test or any other test.
I first learned about tea reading a thread about using it in DWC to combat brown slim/root rot. Seeing how it prevented these conditions in water I said why not try it in the soil I was using at the time to see what happens.
So I took all the used soil I had piled up everywhere and made 4x8 beds. Put all the used soil in there. Said what can I add to these beds to amend them. After extensive study and research and sense these beds were only going to be for flowering to be perpetual I decided on these three things. Organicare Bloom, Epsom Starter Plus, Dolomite lime.
Every week I take a 4x8 amend the beds with these three products. 8 cups OB, 4 cups ESP, and 2 cups DL. I have been doing this with these beds now for 5 years. The plants get put right in. I believe the mycro life is a buffer for the plants they take up what they need and the rest doesn't bother them. If I try to use any bottled Humic or Fulvic in any way its too much. Even Sea Green. There is too much uptake and I get curl. But If I do the mix and only the mix Im talking about everything goes perfect. Any Strain.
Always my ash is always perfectly white. I have received tons of compliments over the years from many organic growers whom Ive given flowers too. That's enough for me. Quantity and Quality are through the roof.
I give tea,food,tea,food. And a the last two weeks of any strain I do just molasses water only. No PH no TDS nothing.
My "Food" Flowering consists of.
@5 ml per gallon
Flora Nova Bloom
GH CalMag from their organic line.
Liquid Kool Bloom
@2 ml per gallon
Si
Enzyms
Carb
Weeks 4 & 5 only
@1 ml per gallon
Bloombastic
Ive never had better results with such an easy mix. Ive used everything under the sun.
Except for going as far as making a super soil. Or going no till. I do actually till in all leaves and old roots from the previous plants into the beds. Do I believe my soil is alive yes. Do I think that some of the salts hinder the microbes a bit. But Im adding them so often that they are taking a foot hold and protecting my roots keeping away the bad things like bugs and pathogens yes. They are handling the uptake and the ph.
My tea is brewed perpetually means I keep topping it off. I do not have a microscope but I know the results have been astronomical.
The tea I brew on and on.
EWC Ancient forest
Molasses
MycroGrow
I do this in a 5 gallon bucket I pour off (leaving the sludge at the bottom to keep the batch going) into a 55 gallon barrel add 12 oz of molasses and water with a PUMP and wand. Ive smelt tea that has gone bad. Wheather I didn't keep molasses in the mix or the air pump died or got unplugged and Its horrible and my perpetual tea never gets like that.
Im on a year batch now. I even been replacing MycroGrow recently with Caps Og Bio War products and I like them and I think he is a cool kat and he has always answered my questions.
How I veg is in 1 gallon nursery pots. One bucket has the bottom cut out of it. I place the bottomless bucket inside of another that is not cut. I do this because when I move them to flower I just take off the outter bucket exposing the inner bottomless bucket hense the roots and I site it down on my amended flowering tables and they take off. The same day I take the finished plants out. No stress they root down into the tables and go crazy. I do no transition food either. They get the bloom food the same day of transplant. The finished buckets I rip them off the 4x8 tables leaving the roots in the table to be turned in while the soil in the buckets I recycle for the next round of baby's coming out of the dome.
While in veg they receive a sprinkle of Cap's Veg pak for transplant from the dome to the buckets and thats it.
The veg food. DTW Every Monday I make this I Top off water only untill the following Monday then I add this mix again.
@5ml per gallon
Flora Nova Grow
@2ml per gallon
B vitamins
Carbs
Enzyms
The only other thing I do is foliar once or twice a week with diluted tea. I catch all My AC water and that's all I use have been doing this for 13 plus years. Every now and then I need a little R/O but not too often.
Im open to criticism I would love to learn how I could make this mix any better. I love to experiment and learn new things.
it sounds like you found something that works for you. Hard to say if your formula might work for anyone else because, esp. w/ your perpetual tea, it seems like your particular environment is very hospitable. The micro-life in your region must be well established.
& you are indeed "semi organic"
are you saying you amend once a week w/ "8 cups OB, 4 cups ESP, and 2 cups DL?"
& you are indeed "semi organic"
are you saying you amend once a week w/ "8 cups OB, 4 cups ESP, and 2 cups DL?"
surfguitar
Member
Seems better than using bagged soils and tossing every round, you could probably save a decent amount sourcing the nutrients yourself versus buying a prepackaged product from botinacare or GH. Whether or not you can improve on quality and yield is only something you can answer 
I amend and turn each 4x8 table as soon as I remove the finished plants before I put the next ones in. All in the same day. There is no down or wait time in between.
So that would be every 8 weeks.
Seems better than using bagged soils and tossing every round, you could probably save a decent amount sourcing the nutrients yourself versus buying a prepackaged product from botinacare or GH. Whether or not you can improve on quality and yield is only something you can answer
How would u go about doing a Nova Bloom or CalMag suppliment? I would love to do this.
justwatchin
Member
I think now your starting to hit the nail on the head as far as merging the two
I do understand the organic affectionadoes as far as strictly organic giving a great product and giving great results but I'm not to sure many people really ask why other than whats written by nutrient companies or environmentalist for either side.
What's produced when you make these biologically active teas to increase the herd? The microbes are producing fulvic acid. Great Earthworm casting teas are effective in organic and synthetic because of the high concentrations of fulvic acid. Microbes in soil are effective because of the fulvic acid they produce to chelate and dissolve minerals added. Every single progressive nute company out there has a fulvic acid product! Some are "proprietary blends" reason for different nutrient content is the processing. For example GH's diamond nectar and floralicious, dutchmaster's zone, all of heavy 16 blends, Pure Blend Pro blends, House and Garden, Aptus, AN's products....the list goes on and on...The difference really is in how they are processed and purified Drip-clean for example is fulvic acid that has been purified with Tripotassium orthophosphate. Even the now famous aptus facilitator is just potassium silicate and fulvic acid. Fulvic acid dissolves and chelates silica too. Look up all the benefits of fulvic acid and you'll see what I mean.
So how do we put this info to use? In an effort to combine Ions Anions and naturally produced chelating fulvic acid and other vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal exudates. Reduce the damn phosphate levels and stop following Lucas and Mel nutrient profiles.
Phosphate levels are way too high, unnecessary, leaves black ash, negative taste profiles when smoked, and worst of all kill beneficial microbes. Yes its the phosphate that kills your beneficial microbes not all salts are harmful. You also need to increase nitrates instead of ammonia for your source of nitrogen to also promotes beneficial flora in your root zone. A little abstract from oxford.
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/87/3/303.abstract?sid=81cee582-7261-4931-a074-49f66cc94129
Using a nutrient profile more tailored to what we are growing and you get all the benefits of organics like not having to flush at all, Yes you can feed all the way up to harvest with the correct nutrient profiles!!! clean flavorful smoke with white ash right after dry. and that weird mosaic patterns in some mothers I more suspect to be an unavailability of iron due to lack of chelation by fulvic acid.
Water medium with a properly made microbe tea. Innoculate roots with this product at transplant has more spores that anything ive found for the cheapest price
http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-oz.html
Then feed Jack's with a proper fulvic solution and Let the plants to the rest. The plant produces its own carbs. Mixing your own nutes not only saves you a hell of allot of money but produces fabulous results.
I have a started using Jack's Hydro and Cal-nit at a ratio of 3.0grams hydro to 1.8grams cal-nit and for hungry strains. Some strains require 0.5 grams of Epsom but not many. No boost! Feed all the way through, one day flush with Sulfuric acid as my PH down to add sulfur for taste and the results are phenominal!!! Lots of flavor without that dirt earthy flavor from to much humic acid, superb friggin high.. I have to say im in love definitely the best product ive grown to date. I'll play with a dial down in nutes and sulfuric acid pH down to see if I can get those pretty colors but for now this shit works amaizingly well. Better than anything ive tried and full of natural plant flavor n smell from the higher sulfur content. I think the only thing I want to try in addition to this great switch is adding canna-boost and see how that goes but in all truth it'll be very hard to improve as far as nutrients are concerned.
I've gotten these profiles from the very knowledgeable Fatman, Thefatman whatever you want to call him and Snowblind's work. Fatman's nutrient profiles are 3-1-4 elemental not oxi for flowering.
The Jack's hydro and calnit come out to a very similar profile.
N=120
P=42
K=172
Mg=63
S=81
Ca=98
All nitrate, dirt cheap, last forever, grows the best product, can be used strait through flush does not stop microbes, You don't need a boost! Very close to modern analysis of cannabis tissue samples.
Enough P for flowering but low enough so it will not inhibit beneficial microbe growth when using and will not accumulate in the medium when using a fulvic acid solution. I use this product for my fulvic and humic acid source the fulvic has a pH of 2.02 and humic a pH 9.45 great for balancing each-other and is OMRI listed and is cleared for use with organics or salt-based.
http://www.humicgrowth.com/
Edit: besides all the benefits explained above for Jack's Hydro and cal-nit combo in flowering... I've noticed an incredible improvement in veg and mother plants everything green not one deficient leaf!! and strong from top to bottom and white fuzzy roots are starting to pop all over the top of my coco... The plants definitely prefer the switch for sure.
justwatchin
Member
To the op on mixing the two. It can definitely be done and done with ease if your using the right nute profiles. You don't even have to adjust your ppm or use boosters. Same ppm from veg strait through harvest. Good luck! N look up Fatman's quotes on nute profiles the dude really knows his shit. Then look up oxfordjournal's or google scholar on mycorrhizal fungi and salts tolerance, NH-3(nitrate) vs NH-4(ammonia) source on mycorrhizal fungi growth , and phosphorous levels on its growth vs inhibition. (think I remember inhibitory levels of phosphorus being 50ppm.) Then look up essential oil production and accumulation of glandular trichomes on Phosphorus supplementation vs mycorrhizal fungi inoculation. High P for flowering of cannabis really is a myth. Took the time to post bc I really liked that you stood your ground with organic affectionadoes. As much as I like organics and the products when well done, There really are easier ways to do things as this science progresses that are just as affective. If I had a headache I wouldn't boil a peace of willow bark and call it organic, I would just take a damn aspirin. The science is there why not utilize it?
Field sustenance and pot and bed grows are two different things. We are not growing in fields. Its really astounding how long this information has been out there and is being exploited by nute companies focused on us for crazy prices.
Field sustenance and pot and bed grows are two different things. We are not growing in fields. Its really astounding how long this information has been out there and is being exploited by nute companies focused on us for crazy prices.
justwatchin
Member
For a boost I haven't tried yet but im going to try is around week 3 I would bump boron from .05 to .1 ratio till bout week 7, n iron EDTA from .3 to .7 ratio for week 3, and maybe a small touch of potassium sulfate. week 6&7 bump with a small touch of potassium sulfate or just increase the hydro to 3.5 depending on how she feeds. Boron has been shown to have a very positive effect on increasing flower numbers and quality if given right after stretch before break although only in micro amounts so u have to get a grip on your ppm ec material b4 u play with it... think playing with micros n making sure they are available to plants are key to most of the aptus stuff. And increased sulfur from the potassium sulfate and Epsom and pH down from sulfuric acid at the end really boost aroma's and flavors. U don't want your Mg too high over 60 though or it'll weaken the high so make sure u nail that one too. but 0.5-1 g of Epsom shouldn't do that with the mix above. Haven't found a sulfur mix that doesn't come as a compound or isn't highly acidic. but mixing your own nutes is not only a hell of allot cheaper, easier, last forever, and is the same ingredients all nute companies use or what its broken down to by micros, It allows you really dial in a stain you love to a T. You could bump in P at week 3 but to stimulate flowering but I wouldn't go above 55 think that's like 1/8 of a teasoon of KB-dry every 2gal for that bump and def not in late flower at all.
GreenDream
Member
Some great info there, Justwatchin.
You should check out what I posted in The myth, of the high P myth? thread. I posted my individual nute ppm's, and am trying to keep the thread resurrected. I would really like to get deeper into nutrient levels when using substrates other than coco or hydro. Pro Mix is especially of interest for me, and I'm sure a lot of readers would like to see it applied to forest humus and composted wood substrates like Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Black gold, etc... as well.
I am currently running: (in elemental ppm)
93N, 64P, 202K, 94Ca, 40Mg, 62S
In a 50% Pro Mix, 40% coco fiber, and 10% EWC mix. The EWC provides about 0.8% by weight of N, so that's why my N number is a little less than the 2:1 N ratio. Otherwise I am running 2:1:4 N-P-K, 2:2:1 N-Ca-Mg, and I keep my phos slightly higher (15ppm) because the Pro Mix makes it a little less available due to it's CEC. (I think)
I would love to hear your input on my current fert levels, as well as the results I posted about my last test run.
You should check out what I posted in The myth, of the high P myth? thread. I posted my individual nute ppm's, and am trying to keep the thread resurrected. I would really like to get deeper into nutrient levels when using substrates other than coco or hydro. Pro Mix is especially of interest for me, and I'm sure a lot of readers would like to see it applied to forest humus and composted wood substrates like Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Black gold, etc... as well.
I am currently running: (in elemental ppm)
93N, 64P, 202K, 94Ca, 40Mg, 62S
In a 50% Pro Mix, 40% coco fiber, and 10% EWC mix. The EWC provides about 0.8% by weight of N, so that's why my N number is a little less than the 2:1 N
ratio. Otherwise I am running 2:1:4 N-P-K, 2:2:1 N-Ca-Mg, and I keep my phos slightly higher (15ppm) because the Pro Mix makes it a little less available due to it's CEC. (I think)I would love to hear your input on my current fert levels, as well as the results I posted about my last test run.
