Super Soil, Tea, Sythentic Nutes

[Eureka Springs Organics]

if everyone would keep a cool head, be respectful to each other, we could actually have a discussion on this topic without ostracizing members who seem to be very informed on the topic as well as an advertiser on the site....

please erryone be chill and refrain from attacks and bad attitudes, cool kids club antics... etc.

if we all play nice.....
we may just be able to inform one another based on our knowledge and experience rather than resorting to hyperbole and anecdote and ultimately insults.

seriously, i'd much rather hear ESO's response to your points than reaction to your attitude, GreenDream.

I agree.

 

[GreenDream]

This has become very unproductive. Your friend is the best in the world, and I am shit. Does that make you feel better?

No, but I believe it was YOU who first said we aren't on the same page. I never said any of the above comments and it's quite honestly a little childish for you to go there.

Frank, and myself are not new at this. Hard to believe huh? People who site studies have no first hand knowledge about what they speak.

This is such a fallacy. Just because I cite a peer reviewed study I have no idea what I'm talking about? I take offense to that. It is YOU who is being derogatory.

Have I sighted one study? That should tell you something. I don't need to try to prove anything.

What do you call this: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowl...l-and-67500617 you you
[/FONT]and for what it's worth, what I cited is peer reviewed. That means it is scientifically correct and not just the opinion of someone who calls themself experienced.

Again, this has gotten to the point where you are being derogatory.

From what I can see, it's not me being derogatory.

No point in discussing anything further.

I agree, because apparently you can't comment on my post with all the examples, and are instead just getting defensive.
I never said you don't know what you are talking about, but you might want to think first about making blanket statements that are pretty easily refutable, especially if you can only back up your statement with "it's true cause I say so."

 

[GreenDream]

if everyone would keep a cool head, be respectful to each other, we could actually have a discussion on this topic without ostracizing members who seem to be very informed on the topic as well as an advertiser on the site....

please erryone be chill and refrain from attacks and bad attitudes, cool kids club antics... etc.

if we all play nice.....
we may just be able to inform one another based on our knowledge and experience rather than resorting to hyperbole and anecdote and ultimately insults.

seriously, i'd much rather hear ESO's response to your points than reaction to your attitude, GreenDream.

I apologize if I sound like I am getting attitude. I wasn't trying to...

Yeah I would rather hear his response, too. But I doubt it will happen.

Maybe my last post was a little rude, but I still think it was deserved.

And FWIW before anyone says anything to the sort, I am a HUGE proponent of organic farming. I just saw some misconceptions that I wanted to clear up but ESO would not stop arguing them.

 

[Illadelphi]

I'm really glad I came across this. I'm so new to growing and everything in this read has certainly put things into perspective for me about plant biology in a basic sense. Hell, i'm pretty ashamed to run some RD gear now using synthetics ( GH FloraNova grow and bloom) but I'm just really new to it all. They claim to be a totally organic grown and bred. Do you guys feel that is correct? And is foxfarm soil really 100% organic? He uses his moonshine mix which is happy frog/ocean forest/light warrior mix. Waters with nothing but water the plants whole life and uses "og tea" in flower to supplement. I'm curious to know if you guys agree that they are TLO methods. Regardless I have seeds left that I want to run it

Also I have a round of clones that I just got rooted, I took them two weeks into flower. My question is will the chelates from the synthetics stay in the plants tissue on a cellular level throughout that plants life? Or will the new growth be essentially fully organic if I run that cut organically?


Lastly, idk if it's my place.. You guys are amazing cultivators and shit on me with growing big time. I've read this thread start to finish and I can comprehend it all. I'm a spectator to this conversation and agree with Green about the fact that eureka ( much love ) is pretty much getting defensive and offended by what green is saying but he is failing to comprehend what green is putting down. Organics being readily available. I remember a light feeding bag seed I planted being transplanted from a solo cup into a 6 qt container of Ocean Forest and it burned my plant. It would appear to me that if the plant could regulate the uptake of the nutes it wouldn't overfeed. Is it perhaps a matter of the concentration or amounts of a particular element is too high?

Either way, thanks to you all. I'd really like to try 100% Organic. I'm not trying to be a cheerleader or anything but to avinash and dank.. I've checked out your guys threads and grows before i even registered here and you guys rock this shit hard. Happy to be able to talk to some pros with nice gros

 

[dank.frank]

Your friend appears to make liquid products that have been predigested by enzymes.

We are not even close to being on the same age.

^^^ This was not a comment about gardener skill level...

It is a comment that addresses the approach or methodology being used to garden..

I think that is where the misunderstanding took place...



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

No you're just not listening. Here's a peer reviewed article stating that dicalcium phosphate, a widely recognized organic source of phosphorous,

Dicalcium phosphate is a chemical and is not organic.



dank.Frank

 

[Illadelphi]

I was wrong about the moonshine mix.. Don't want to be that guy that's misinforming.


This link states the correct one.
http://raredankness.com/FAQ.htm

Anyway I'll try the one stated on the site for my next seed run. I have a lot of love for them. Scotts story is pretty amazing. Gotta love medicinal mary.

To Organics!

Lol you guys can keep arguing now

 

[GreenDream]

Frank, you are correct... but technically we are both correct. Dicalcium Phosphate is simply precipitated bone meal. It has been demineralized with hydrochloric acid and precipitated through the addition of lime. Technically it is a chemical, though it is "one of the mineral phosphorous sources that is commonly used in organic diets". It is one of the minerals we were discussing earlier (like K-Mag) that are usually accepted by organic standards.

 

[Chunky Dixel]

After all this bloggy. I would like to state my current thoughts since I originally made this post.

Here it is.

I will be making a super soil that's airy for drainage. ( ESO I hope to get in touch about amendments)

I will be transplanting into 3-5 gallon's as the final container because I have space to grow slightly bigger plants.

I will veg for 1-2 weeks in the final container before flipping.

I will make a tea that I water in at least a couple times a week (during veg and flower). I'm going with The Guano Company brand tea, maxi crop seaweed, Molasses. (any thoughts?)

If I feel the need for a P booster I will most likely use Budswell by The Guano Company.

Any other suggestions?

Happy Growing and Happy New Year Everyone.

( I noticed a decline in my plants healthiness when I added in synthetic nutrients mid flower... personal experience)

- ChunkyD

I've had the best results when I leaned organic. I'm the kinda guy that sometimes has to trial and error vs old school knowledge.

Never had luck with hydro!

 

[Chunky Dixel]

Old School Growers Microbial Tea - Looks like a good product. Any thoughts?

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

Old School Growers Microbial Tea - Looks like a good product. Any thoughts?

Miles said you were coming to the warehouse with him this week. If so I will get you sorted on amendments and teas for feeding. Don't buy any other teas until then if you can.

 

[GreenDream]

Sorry I just gotta say this...

Look at the label on a bag of Cal Phos 0-3-0. On the back it will say the guaranteed analysis of 3% Available Phosphorous (P2O5). Yes, that's the same P2O5 that you see on inorganic nutrients as well. EVERY label will list the amount of Available Phosphorous (P2O5), and Potassium (K2O), and different types of Nitrogen.. be they Urea or Ammoniacal, or Nitrate, or Insoluble. It's a standardized system. Better labels will also list the unavailable nutrient percentages, but it isn't required.

Sorry not trying to beat a dead horse but I always figured it was common knowledge... I mean it's right there on every label.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

Mix some alfafa meal , rock phosphate, and some greensand and grow a plant. Everything the plants needs should be there. Why won't it grow then?

Microbes.

Have you read "Teaning With Microbes" It is the first book anyone interested in growing a plant organically should read.

You are looking at organic growing with hydroponic eyes.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I will make a tea that I water in at least a couple times a week (during veg and flower). I'm going with The Guano Company brand tea, maxi crop seaweed, Molasses. (any thoughts?)


Any other suggestions?

Earth worm castings in that tea.

 

[GreenDream]

Mix some alfafa meal , rock phosphate, and some greensand and grow a plant. Everything the plants needs should be there. Why won't it grow then?

Microbes.

Have you read "Teaning With Microbes" It is the first book anyone interested in growing a plant organically should read.

You are looking at organic growing with hydroponic eyes.

I hear what you are saying, honestly I do. I am not arguing that a healthy microbial herd is necessary to grow quality organics. I have read "Teaming with Microbes", as well as some other highly technical guides. I designed and built a compost tea brewer that can create 30 gallons of very high quality tea daily (via dosatron injection and automatic topoff, 100gal dual res recirculating system). I own a microscope and use it regularly. I can identify most of the protozoa in our tea, and we get some interesting stuff including but certainly not limited to all types of cilliates, nematodes, and even rotifers! (The smallest organism with both a brain and a penis, IIRC.) I am well versed on the the rhizosphere and nutrient, protozoa, bacteria, and mycorrhizae interactions. So yeah, I am not arguing the importance of a healthy rhizosphere.

FWIW You picked some very unavailable nutrients as your example. Both rock phos and greensand can take up to 5 years for all the unavailable nutrients to fully break down, and the available nutes are not in high enough concentration to provide adequate nutrition.

My only argument is that one can indeed burn with organic fertilizers, and that the NPK values listed on the label are in a standardized format (at least here in CA), listing the available nutrients in types of N, P2O5 and K2O. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to tell people that it's impossible to burn with organic nutrients, and I believe my previous examples illustrated that quite well.

 

[GreenDream]

I will make a tea that I water in at least a couple times a week (during veg and flower). I'm going with The Guano Company brand tea, maxi crop seaweed, Molasses. (any thoughts?)

If I feel the need for a P booster I will most likely use Budswell by The Guano Company.

Any other suggestions?
- ChunkyD

Humic acid would be a great addition. It is a preferred food for microorganisms, and also may aide in the uptake of nutrients.

Not all humic acid is created equal. I always search for humics that are extracted from fresh water lake deposits. Humic acid that is extracted from leonardite is often extracted using extremely strong, toxic, and environmentally unfriendly acids and sometimes those acids can even remain in the final product.

 

[surfguitar]

Love tm-7 from bioag, legit humic acid+7 important trace minerals.

While you're at it get there ful-power

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

I hear what you are saying, honestly I do. I am not arguing that a healthy microbial herd is necessary to grow quality organics. I have read "Teaming with Microbes", as well as some other highly technical guides. I designed and built a compost tea brewer that can create 30 gallons of very high quality tea daily (via dosatron injection and automatic topoff, 100gal dual res recirculating system). I own a microscope and use it regularly. I can identify most of the protozoa in our tea, and we get some interesting stuff including but certainly not limited to all types of cilliates, nematodes, and even rotifers! (The smallest organism with both a brain and a penis, IIRC.) I am well versed on the the rhizosphere and nutrient, protozoa, bacteria, and mycorrhizae interactions. So yeah, I am not arguing the importance of a healthy rhizosphere.

FWIW You picked some very unavailable nutrients as your example. Both rock phos and greensand can take up to 5 years for all the unavailable nutrients to fully break down, and the available nutes are not in high enough concentration to provide adequate nutrition.

My only argument is that one can indeed burn with organic fertilizers, and that the NPK values listed on the label are in a standardized format (at least here in CA), listing the available nutrients in types of N, P2O5 and K2O. I think it's absolutely ludicrous to tell people that it's impossible to burn with organic nutrients, and I believe my previous examples illustrated that quite well.

When you say organic nutrients are you speaking about liquid nutrients in a bottle? Soil amendments would not qualify as nutrients as there are no nutrients bio-available to the plant until the microbes have processed them via nutrient cycling.

That being said you can burn a plant with just about anything. Although with a basic understanding of organic growing it is extremely hard to do.

 

[surfguitar]

How are there no nutrients bio-available? If I put dry amendmants in a tea bag and shake that for a minute in water the resulting solution has no nutrients from those amendmants?

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

How are there no nutrients bio-available? If I put dry amendmants in a tea bag and shake that for a minute in water the resulting solution has no nutrients from those amendmants?

Bio-Available means in a form a plant can use. Microbes make the nitrients in soil amendments bio-available through nutrient cycling. Nutrient cycling is nothing more than the microbes eating the soil amendments, and shitting out bio-available nutrients.

I suppose in hydroponic terms the microbes would be natures form a Chelation.