Yeah, thanks for a link....
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mycorrhizae with organics
- Thread starter TastyFrost
- Start date
Yeah, thanks for a link....
T
themoonismyfrnd
I have found Soil Moist to work really well, but you need to plan ahead for the soil expending from it. This is what I use and it makes transplanting/strong root systems a breeze. http://www.soilmoist.com/products/mycorrhizal.php
I've had transplanted plants look normal within a few hours using this stuff. Very low stress.
I've had transplanted plants look normal within a few hours using this stuff. Very low stress.
Sarcasm will get nothing from me Mr Mike. And it certainly wont get you an invite to that site. No invite, no link.
Interesting thinking on the grafting MJ. Done any grafting yet? Anyone? To that extent a reveg probably has a good chance on supporting established mycos through into the next cycle. Some reveg plants go ballistic - is this why?
Interesting thinking on the grafting MJ. Done any grafting yet? Anyone? To that extent a reveg probably has a good chance on supporting established mycos through into the next cycle. Some reveg plants go ballistic - is this why?
Rustylions
Member
Very possible Jaykush!
I have a friend with 7 strains hanging off the same stock. He says the biggest problem is labeling the separate genetics. His is about 3 and a half years old. Says it drinks in N like no other if you're constantly grafting.
RL
I have a friend with 7 strains hanging off the same stock. He says the biggest problem is labeling the separate genetics. His is about 3 and a half years old. Says it drinks in N like no other if you're constantly grafting.
RL
I have not done any grafting of cannabis, but now I am thinking about it. I wish I had more space. It is interesting to envision breeding diverging on two paths: one for rootstock, the other for above ground parts.
grafting on a whole is only about as hard as cloning, but I imagine managing the stem is hard.
grafting on a whole is only about as hard as cloning, but I imagine managing the stem is hard.
Grafting is rarely 100% successful. Also, after your first graft, while the stalk continues to grow, it will become more and more difficult to graft a second, third..... time.
At least that's the way it works on vines and trees.
well i have dabbled with grafting trees and shrubs before. id say i have a good 40-50% success rate. so i know it is difficult, but i think it can be done. i have just never cared enough to do it to cannabis.
also i really i think it depends on the type of grafting. obviously a bud graft wouldn't help us at all.
also i really i think it depends on the type of grafting. obviously a bud graft wouldn't help us at all.
phatboyfromla
Member
I came across a youtube video showing like 3 plants that were grafted. Crazy stuff.
KING_JOHN_C
Member
good discussion here.
Thanks so much my friend. This info is astounding and Dr. St. John is humorful while being exhaustively informative. Truly an expert resource for all farmers.
kick ass post Jay! You've outdone yourself.
here is a great passage from the link. It's the living mulch tie-in, of course
here is a great passage from the link. It's the living mulch tie-in, of course
Bongstar420
Member
AM fungi complexities
AM fungi complexities
This is good though Im not sure if it has been mentioned later in the thread as Ive read about half of it, but it should be noted that the only relevant AM for Cannabis is Glomus mosseae. And, yes, P at levels higher than 30ppm will render the fungi's presence null. You can, however, bust out a trick if you wish to employ the fungi though I do not see why it is necessary. If you apply P in a mineral insoluble form as you would probably need to do with most of the fertilizer program, you can probably double the inputs before inhibition occurs. The 30ppm rating is based on dissolved solids not total mineral content though Ive seen studies showing less than 10ppm is also inhibitory to AM populations. The AM fungi are evolved to solubilize unavailable minerals and facilitate their transport in exchange for sugars and lipids (probably other stuff too) from the plant they infect and other associated microorganisms. AM fungi only seem to benefit growth in moderately nutrient limiting circumstances but can also increase uptake of heavy minerals like Cadmium. Its possible that the observations of AM deactivation in high P environments had more to do with the peripheral mircoorganism community than the actual amount of P. Another note is one might consider is that there are biotypes of symbiotes where a species may have types that are suited for low nutrient environments as well as other types that are suited for high nutrient environments.
Finially, Ive seen all of the popular inoculum spontaneously in non inoculated media. Trichoderma is a great example. Its ubiquitous and has an appearance similar to Penicillum. If youve ever grown shrooms, you will find this genus as a very common containment. Also, I have seen bags of Glomus inoculated media that were sporulating off of the small amounts of guano and what not that they commonly mix in for reasons unbeknownst to me.
AM fungi complexities
This is good though Im not sure if it has been mentioned later in the thread as Ive read about half of it, but it should be noted that the only relevant AM for Cannabis is Glomus mosseae. And, yes, P at levels higher than 30ppm will render the fungi's presence null. You can, however, bust out a trick if you wish to employ the fungi though I do not see why it is necessary. If you apply P in a mineral insoluble form as you would probably need to do with most of the fertilizer program, you can probably double the inputs before inhibition occurs. The 30ppm rating is based on dissolved solids not total mineral content though Ive seen studies showing less than 10ppm is also inhibitory to AM populations. The AM fungi are evolved to solubilize unavailable minerals and facilitate their transport in exchange for sugars and lipids (probably other stuff too) from the plant they infect and other associated microorganisms. AM fungi only seem to benefit growth in moderately nutrient limiting circumstances but can also increase uptake of heavy minerals like Cadmium. Its possible that the observations of AM deactivation in high P environments had more to do with the peripheral mircoorganism community than the actual amount of P. Another note is one might consider is that there are biotypes of symbiotes where a species may have types that are suited for low nutrient environments as well as other types that are suited for high nutrient environments.
Finially, Ive seen all of the popular inoculum spontaneously in non inoculated media. Trichoderma is a great example. Its ubiquitous and has an appearance similar to Penicillum. If youve ever grown shrooms, you will find this genus as a very common containment. Also, I have seen bags of Glomus inoculated media that were sporulating off of the small amounts of guano and what not that they commonly mix in for reasons unbeknownst to me.
DinosaurCocks
Member
couldn't we test all this out in a few weeks? i mean seriously, half a dozen identical baking pans with sterile media...some control groups...and a bag of fast sprouting grass seed... and some organic phosphorus and myco innoculant and there would be no speculation...
it seems to me that there are a few people with very strong opinions and a hundred or so people watching with interest...if your opinions are so strong why not prove it with a cheep and speedy test?
*edit* after reading the entire thread...it's basically all the opinions of one dude, i mean it may all be based on fact but there is no actual discussion...just one dude who is really full of himself and a bunch of people gloming on to whatever he says because he uses big words a lot...i guess this just tells me that most organic gardeners are in the same boat as i am...we don't really have a clue what we are talking about...even the ones that claim to be experts with their amazing "herds" are basically tin foil hat types imagining something that wasn't there...imagining a whole ecosystem that didn't really exist at all...
i mean a few years ago, and to this day, depending on what site you are on, people will claim that using tap water kills off your whole "herd", hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent across the country outfitting RO systems for organic pot gardening because not a single person knew the truth of the matter...that soil completely neutralizes chlorine and chloromine instantly....and even organic hydro setups are immune with a little molasses... yet everybody here swore by RO water, some were even quite hostile about it...yet it was completely pointless...
half of the organic talk was about living soils and no till and all this junk...turns out the herd was just a pipe dream...something that happens in nature and can't be replicated indoors...basically all we have been doing is using fertilizers that were naturally derived in the exact same way that the chemical guys use fertilizers that were not made naturally...without a herd to worry about this organic thing seems to be pretty simple...
feels like some people just liked to think it was much more complicated than it was, and now that it's been proven that it's not complicated at all, they refuse to accept it and so continue to push the need for herds and junk so that they can tell themselves they are "highly knowledgeable" of something...even if it's something that makes no difference at all to indoor growing, they would feel less important if they accepted that all this so called "knowledge" they acquired was pointless, wrong, or misguided.
however i must say it hurts the credibility of the thread quite a bit that it was really just one dude posting hundreds of times, nobody else was really refuting with evidence or supporting his claimes with evedence either, every single person just seemed to accept that he was an expert and everything he said must be truth...what if this one guy was wrong? he is banned now like everybody else, and as i will soon be as well...wouldn't be the first time, but if one dude were wrong then a 15 page,3 year old thread is wrong that many, many people have been accepting as fact...not saying it's wrong, he linked to lots of studies, but i would feel better about it if it wasn't just this ganga-din dude over and over again, bragging about his knowledge and lording it over the underlings...where are the botanists, mycologists, and horticulturalists?! not a single member of this forum is going to school for these subjects?
it seems to me that there are a few people with very strong opinions and a hundred or so people watching with interest...if your opinions are so strong why not prove it with a cheep and speedy test?
*edit* after reading the entire thread...it's basically all the opinions of one dude, i mean it may all be based on fact but there is no actual discussion...just one dude who is really full of himself and a bunch of people gloming on to whatever he says because he uses big words a lot...i guess this just tells me that most organic gardeners are in the same boat as i am...we don't really have a clue what we are talking about...even the ones that claim to be experts with their amazing "herds" are basically tin foil hat types imagining something that wasn't there...imagining a whole ecosystem that didn't really exist at all...
i mean a few years ago, and to this day, depending on what site you are on, people will claim that using tap water kills off your whole "herd", hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent across the country outfitting RO systems for organic pot gardening because not a single person knew the truth of the matter...that soil completely neutralizes chlorine and chloromine instantly....and even organic hydro setups are immune with a little molasses... yet everybody here swore by RO water, some were even quite hostile about it...yet it was completely pointless...
half of the organic talk was about living soils and no till and all this junk...turns out the herd was just a pipe dream...something that happens in nature and can't be replicated indoors...basically all we have been doing is using fertilizers that were naturally derived in the exact same way that the chemical guys use fertilizers that were not made naturally...without a herd to worry about this organic thing seems to be pretty simple...
feels like some people just liked to think it was much more complicated than it was, and now that it's been proven that it's not complicated at all, they refuse to accept it and so continue to push the need for herds and junk so that they can tell themselves they are "highly knowledgeable" of something...even if it's something that makes no difference at all to indoor growing, they would feel less important if they accepted that all this so called "knowledge" they acquired was pointless, wrong, or misguided.
however i must say it hurts the credibility of the thread quite a bit that it was really just one dude posting hundreds of times, nobody else was really refuting with evidence or supporting his claimes with evedence either, every single person just seemed to accept that he was an expert and everything he said must be truth...what if this one guy was wrong? he is banned now like everybody else, and as i will soon be as well...wouldn't be the first time, but if one dude were wrong then a 15 page,3 year old thread is wrong that many, many people have been accepting as fact...not saying it's wrong, he linked to lots of studies, but i would feel better about it if it wasn't just this ganga-din dude over and over again, bragging about his knowledge and lording it over the underlings...where are the botanists, mycologists, and horticulturalists?! not a single member of this forum is going to school for these subjects?
DinosaurCocks
Member
so it's been a month now, i keep reading and reading, mostly organic gardening books not related to weed, and none seem to mention organic fertilizer killing off the herd...id really like to learn a little more about this stuff, but there haven't been any new replies...i am actually pondering getting a tea brewer from Eureka Springs and making some microbial tea's but i can't get myself to pull the trigger because of this one thread...
maybe the guys at Eureka Springs Organics know? id love to hear the opinions of the big organics people here, as i am relatively new...one thing i do know is i definitely don't want to be investing in a brewer and making messy myco tea's if it's pretty much just going to die right after i start feeding it to my plants...i also don't want to kid myself into thinking there is something there that isn't...
i suppose i should invest in a microscope so i can see what my own herd looks like over time, i don't suppose anybody here would know the best strength for viewing them?
my research also tells me that mycorhizoa aren't the only microbes in the soil by a long shot...one animal in an eco-system...so does high levels of P also starve off all the other little animals that make up a living soil or is it just mycorhizoa?
maybe the guys at Eureka Springs Organics know? id love to hear the opinions of the big organics people here, as i am relatively new...one thing i do know is i definitely don't want to be investing in a brewer and making messy myco tea's if it's pretty much just going to die right after i start feeding it to my plants...i also don't want to kid myself into thinking there is something there that isn't...
i suppose i should invest in a microscope so i can see what my own herd looks like over time, i don't suppose anybody here would know the best strength for viewing them?
my research also tells me that mycorhizoa aren't the only microbes in the soil by a long shot...one animal in an eco-system...so does high levels of P also starve off all the other little animals that make up a living soil or is it just mycorhizoa?
DinosaurCocks
Member
it seems to me that this is one of the most important subjects in organic gardening...yet not a single member here knows the answer???
seriously?! if you don't know if mycorhizoa can still be helpful at the levels of nutrients our plants require to be healthy why are you using them? why is there all this discussion of teas and innoculants if you apparently have no proof that what you are doing is helping at all? does that mean everybody with a "herd" is just delusional and wasting their time and money feeding imaginary things because it makes them feel important? are they refusing to learn more about it because if it turns out there are no "herds" at our nutrient levels they would feel stupid?
don't get me wrong, just because this thread and this one guy says "the herd" is just an imaginary benifit that only really works outdoors in the wild doesn't mean i believe him...for instance those outdoor dudes that get 50 pound ears of corn use tons of innoculants and organic ferts right? i mean it doesn't really make sense to me that you could attain those mutant huge veggies with just organic nutes or just myco and no nutes...i mean you can't just add tons of organic nutes to make a plant grow huge, eventually they start to burn and don't grow as fast...assuming your doubling up on guano's and blood meals and junk...
this is the third post in a row by me, i know im basically talking to myself and this forum doesn't get much chatter...but it would really be nice to hear somebody els's opinions on this subject...i can't justify getting into teas, even organic gardening books are getting hard to read, because this dumbass thread keeps bugging me from the back of my mind...i need to know who is right!
IS THERE HONESTLY NOBODY ON THIS WEBSITE WITH ANY INSIGHT INTO THIS SUBJECT?!?!
seriously?! if you don't know if mycorhizoa can still be helpful at the levels of nutrients our plants require to be healthy why are you using them? why is there all this discussion of teas and innoculants if you apparently have no proof that what you are doing is helping at all? does that mean everybody with a "herd" is just delusional and wasting their time and money feeding imaginary things because it makes them feel important? are they refusing to learn more about it because if it turns out there are no "herds" at our nutrient levels they would feel stupid?
don't get me wrong, just because this thread and this one guy says "the herd" is just an imaginary benifit that only really works outdoors in the wild doesn't mean i believe him...for instance those outdoor dudes that get 50 pound ears of corn use tons of innoculants and organic ferts right? i mean it doesn't really make sense to me that you could attain those mutant huge veggies with just organic nutes or just myco and no nutes...i mean you can't just add tons of organic nutes to make a plant grow huge, eventually they start to burn and don't grow as fast...assuming your doubling up on guano's and blood meals and junk...
this is the third post in a row by me, i know im basically talking to myself and this forum doesn't get much chatter...but it would really be nice to hear somebody els's opinions on this subject...i can't justify getting into teas, even organic gardening books are getting hard to read, because this dumbass thread keeps bugging me from the back of my mind...i need to know who is right!
IS THERE HONESTLY NOBODY ON THIS WEBSITE WITH ANY INSIGHT INTO THIS SUBJECT?!?!
dc there just isn't the cannabis specific research out there for some of this. I do believe that (and have observed) noticeable differences in plant health, yields, etc when using sterile potting soil mixes and comparing them to the same mixes and plants inoculated with mycorrhizae. Now the question is will there be the same impact if you already have a healthy living soil that is populated with a number of different types of soil fungi? I am also trying to find answers to that.
Fact: clones when treated identically except for using mycorrhizae ended up with the treated clones doing much better in terms of disease resistance and apparent utilization of nutrients
Fact: clones grown in organic soil, for me, have consistently produced a higher quality bud in terms of smell, taste, and hightype.
oh.. on the chlorine and chloramine issue. If you have a choice between using water with or without chlorine in it, then i still recommend going for without. Chlorine and chloramine might be de-activated to a greater or lesser extent, but they still produce toxic halogenated products which are unnecessary.
Fact: clones when treated identically except for using mycorrhizae ended up with the treated clones doing much better in terms of disease resistance and apparent utilization of nutrients
Fact: clones grown in organic soil, for me, have consistently produced a higher quality bud in terms of smell, taste, and hightype.
oh.. on the chlorine and chloramine issue. If you have a choice between using water with or without chlorine in it, then i still recommend going for without. Chlorine and chloramine might be de-activated to a greater or lesser extent, but they still produce toxic halogenated products which are unnecessary.
DinosaurCocks
Member
i see...i have been on a mission since my last post on this thread to find the truth...im not so much worried about how myco's work with cannabis, more about how myco's work with phosphorus, as that seems much more relevant in our situation...since cannabis needs lots of phosphorus and lots of phosphorus is apparently non conducive to myco population growth.
my research is telling me that chemical phosphorus, is basically completely ready to be absorbed right away...it's all soluble. because of this plants that get chemical phosphorus don't need myco's to make the phosphorus usable to plants so they don't feed the myco's and the myco's don't grow...
however, different organic gardening sites mostly seem to be in agreement that using insoluble phosphorus sources solves that problem, something like rock phosphate, because it's not soluble in it's natural form the plant needs to feed the myco's to get the myco's to break up the phosphate into soluble forms that the plant can use, and in the process the myco herd with ALSO help by making the root system effectively larger and helping with water uptake and keeping bad bugs away from the roots and whatnot...
so as i understand it, as far as phosphorus and the plant are concerned, it doesn't really care whether it gets it from the myco herd or from a chemical, but if you use the myco herd to supply the phosphorus the herd will also bring with it many other helpful side affects, like listed above, that when factored in, make having a myco herd better for the gardener than having a crop that doesn't need it to survive.
do i have this right? and if so, what are good sources of organic insoluble phosphorus? most of the articles mentioned rock phosphate, but didn't really mention where they could be found and which the best ones would be...*edit* did more research and found a lot of soft rock phosphate...apparently that is the best slow release phosphorus source that wont kill the herd? im going to be incorporating it into my system along with myco teas, but im curious as too how other people are using it, how much they use, and how often?
my research is telling me that chemical phosphorus, is basically completely ready to be absorbed right away...it's all soluble. because of this plants that get chemical phosphorus don't need myco's to make the phosphorus usable to plants so they don't feed the myco's and the myco's don't grow...
however, different organic gardening sites mostly seem to be in agreement that using insoluble phosphorus sources solves that problem, something like rock phosphate, because it's not soluble in it's natural form the plant needs to feed the myco's to get the myco's to break up the phosphate into soluble forms that the plant can use, and in the process the myco herd with ALSO help by making the root system effectively larger and helping with water uptake and keeping bad bugs away from the roots and whatnot...
so as i understand it, as far as phosphorus and the plant are concerned, it doesn't really care whether it gets it from the myco herd or from a chemical, but if you use the myco herd to supply the phosphorus the herd will also bring with it many other helpful side affects, like listed above, that when factored in, make having a myco herd better for the gardener than having a crop that doesn't need it to survive.
do i have this right? and if so, what are good sources of organic insoluble phosphorus? most of the articles mentioned rock phosphate, but didn't really mention where they could be found and which the best ones would be...*edit* did more research and found a lot of soft rock phosphate...apparently that is the best slow release phosphorus source that wont kill the herd? im going to be incorporating it into my system along with myco teas, but im curious as too how other people are using it, how much they use, and how often?
