Chemical in Buds. If you're good in Math, please help

[greenops]

In my last run I lost a battle against Powdery Mildew.
After cleaning everything and starting from scratch I was still afraid of PM and that's why used a local systemic fungicide called Rondo Combi http://www.maag-garden.ch/de/produkte/rondo-combi.htmlhttp://www.maag-garden.ch/de/produkte/rondo-combi.htmlhttp:// to prevent another PM infestation.

Even though the Rondo Combi is intended and tested for fruits (can be used 3 weeks before harvest), the local grow shops sell it and do recommend it. I applied it once 4th week in veg then once at 12/12 switch, before any buds production.

Only after application I took the time to research about the product and now I really wished I haven't used it at all.... the active ingredient is Difenoconazole.

Apparently the LC50 (lethal concentration) by inhalation in rats is at > 5.17 mg/l, 4 h.

I understand that what's really relevant is the level of Difenoconazole by harvest time, which will be 10 weeks after the last application. But since I don't know where I can get this tested, I'd like to know the concentration that I initially sprayed the plants with in mg/l.

Rondo Combi came in a small 75 ml bottle containing 23.3 % Difenoconazol and a pack of powder (Dithianon). Dithianon isn't systemmic so I'm not too worried about it. Those two ingredients have to be diluted in 5l Water.

I sprayed at most 500ml on 8 plants.

My attempt in calculating this:

• The 75 ml solution contains 17.475 ml Difenoconazol (23.3%).

• 17.475 ml Dif = 17'475 mg (this conversion is inaccurate, because the medium has to be fresh water "1 gram (gm.) = 1 millilitre (ml.)"

• 17'475 mg Dif mixed in 5l water ---> 3'495 mg/l

I don't know if I did this correct. but if 5.17 mg/l can kill rats i don't wanna find out what 3'495 mg/l can do to humans!


So any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[mowood3479]

Mixing it in water does not multiply the amount.. It merely dilutes into the water.. By my math ur bottle contained 17 ml of difenvonzal (sp) . Mixing it in water does not create more of the chemical.. It dilutes the concentration.
Iam not a math or. Chemistry teacher but i would place a fair amount of $ on my answer.
Mo

 

[greenops]

I didn't state that adding water adds more of the chemical. I just tried to convert the 17ml Difenoconazole mixed in 5l water into mg/l. But after further research it appears to me that the l in mg/l isn't water, but air. So i'm more confused now.

 

[GreenDream]

LD50 is the amount of chemical vs. the weight of the member consuming it. I usually write it in g/kg, as it makes more sense to me, but as I understand it g/l is interchangeable.

So, as an example, I weigh 180lbs (81.65kg). That means with an Ld50 of 5.17mg/L, or 0.00517g/kg, it would only take roughly .422g of the stuff to kill me (on average).

It looks like you sprayed 17.45g over 8 plants, so therefore I would need to consume 1/50th of your garden to hit the LD50 (.422g / 17.45g). Depending on how much you usually yield in grams, multiply that number by .02 and there is the amount of buds (in grams) I would need to consume to hit the LD50.

For example, if you normally yield 1lb from all 8 plants, I would need to consume roughly 9g of it to kill me (454gx.02). However this number is skewed because the leaves are not recorded when figuring out final weights, so the final number needing to be consumed would actually be higher. I regularly check how much leaf I lose to trim, and it ranges anywhere from 20% to almost 50%, and that doesn't even include shade leaves.... so I would think you could probably double the final figure for a more accurate g/LD50 amount. Regardless, I wouldn't touch any of it with a 10 foot pole.

(This is, of course, assuming that the original calculation of 17.45g weight of chemical is accurate... It seems pretty high to me. I would want to see the chemical weight in g/ml listed on the bottle and multiply that by the ml you applied to get the official number.)

 

[Pinnate]

In my last run I lost a battle against Powdery Mildew.

You're indoors ─ just control humidity to prevent mould-growth?
I mean, who wants pesticide residues in bud . . . ?

 

[Crooked8]

Neem.

 

[Weird]

here are the problems

A) > ld50 doesn't mean acceptable levels

B) your growing indoors on leafy flowering plants and all the residual use testing is done on nuts trees and ornamental outdoors

your chemical application does not have an open field and substrate to dissipate into

most agricultural chemicals dont magically disappear they evaporate or dissipate into the ecosystem

your ecosystem is closed and your air handling systems could be deficient or compromised a which means it will be contained even further



hope that helps

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hi greenops
Your LD50 in rats is the 50% toxicity by aerosol exposure over prolonged time. That can't be correlated with smoke inhalation of treated crops . I found an oral LD50 in rats of 3 grams per kilogram body weight (which is fairly safe and of low toxicity, it corresponds to more than 200 grams eaten by a human being!).
Fortunately, human metabolism is extensive and fast though plant metabolism and resorption are negligible (also true for environmental degradation). That means, difenoconazole remains on the leaf surface, especially in the cuticula and eventually the trichomes (because it is lipophile). Good thing is, that it will not migrate over to untreated new buds but just stay on the sprayed fan leaves (theoretically).
The calculations of GreenDream seam right, only that the treated surface and not the weight of the whole harvested plant counts. Theoretically, you're safe consuming the buds when you sprayed before flowers showed up . On the other hand, if you really used all the liquid in the bottle for just two applications (or roughly 1 gramm per plant and application), that seams an awful lot of chemicals to me (i.e. overkill).

Couldn't find anything useful (scientifically proven) to tell you clearly 'yes' or 'no' ;( .
Well, you could work in an atmosphere containing 8 mg/m3 each day for 8 hours. Extrapolating from my general knowledge, it looks 'consumable' and mostly safe but personally, I still wouldn't smoke your weed... sorry but I'm a bit sceptical when it comes to such things (not because I don't know, rather the opposit -> see my profile ).

 

[Weird]

Hi greenops
Your LD50 in rats is the 50% toxicity by aerosol exposure over prolonged time. That can't be correlated with smoke inhalation of treated crops . I found an oral LD50 in rats of 3 grams per kilogram body weight (which is fairly safe and of low toxicity, it corresponds to more than 200 grams eaten by a human being!).
Fortunately, human metabolism is extensive and fast though plant metabolism and resorption are negligible (also true for environmental degradation). That means, difenoconazole remains on the leaf surface, especially in the cuticula and eventually the trichomes (because it is lipophile). Good thing is, that it will not migrate over to untreated new buds but just stay on the sprayed fan leaves (theoretically).
The calculations of GreenDream seam right, only that the treated surface and not the weight of the whole harvested plant counts. Theoretically, you're safe consuming the buds when you sprayed before flowers showed up . On the other hand, if you really used all the liquid in the bottle for just two applications (or roughly 1 gramm per plant and application), that seams an awful lot of chemicals to me (i.e. overkill).

Couldn't find anything useful (scientifically proven) to tell you clearly 'yes' or 'no' ;( .
Well, you could work in an atmosphere containing 8 mg/m3 each day for 8 hours. Extrapolating from my general knowledge, it looks 'consumable' and mostly safe but personally, I still wouldn't smoke your weed... sorry but I'm a bit sceptical when it comes to such things (not because I don't know, rather the opposit -> see my profile ).

conversely there are no tests of these chemicals in indoor environments to deem that they are processed the same way by the environment

also there are no tests of these chemicals in conjunction to exposure through other agricultural products

these tests are always one chemical on the test subject, not the matrix of agricultural containments we are exposed to in our foods nor on test subject with compromised immune or health systems (aka people who use it as medicine)

 

[greenops]

(This is, of course, assuming that the original calculation of 17.45g weight of chemical is accurate... It seems pretty high to me. I would want to see the chemical weight in g/ml listed on the bottle and multiply that by the ml you applied to get the official number.)

The safe sheet only states the 23.3% Difenconazole, no mention of weight. Now i realized, the supposedly 17.45 g are in the 5 l of water. I "only" used 500 ml, so we can divide 17.45g by 10 = 1.745 g = 1745 mg, over 8 plants?

You're indoors ─ just control humidity to prevent mould-growth?
I mean, who wants pesticide residues in bud . . . ?

The climate in my cab is pretty stable, 30-45% rH, 25-26 C. I never had PM in the same environment before, just last time it surprised me out of nowhere.

here are the problems


your ecosystem is closed and your air handling systems could be deficient or compromised a which means it will be contained even further

hope that helps

Air circulation has something to do with it? I grow in a grow tent and have a pretty good exhaust that provides constant neg pressure.

Hi greenops
Your LD50 in rats is the 50% toxicity by aerosol exposure over prolonged time. That can't be correlated with smoke inhalation of treated crops . I found an oral LD50 in rats of 3 grams per kilogram body weight (which is fairly safe and of low toxicity, it corresponds to more than 200 grams eaten by a human being!).
Fortunately, human metabolism is extensive and fast though plant metabolism and resorption are negligible (also true for environmental degradation). That means, difenoconazole remains on the leaf surface, especially in the cuticula and eventually the trichomes (because it is lipophile). Good thing is, that it will not migrate over to untreated new buds but just stay on the sprayed fan leaves (theoretically).
The calculations of GreenDream seam right, only that the treated surface and not the weight of the whole harvested plant counts. Theoretically, you're safe consuming the buds when you sprayed before flowers showed up . On the other hand, if you really used all the liquid in the bottle for just two applications (or roughly 1 gramm per plant and application), that seams an awful lot of chemicals to me (i.e. overkill).

Couldn't find anything useful (scientifically proven) to tell you clearly 'yes' or 'no' ;( .
Well, you could work in an atmosphere containing 8 mg/m3 each day for 8 hours. Extrapolating from my general knowledge, it looks 'consumable' and mostly safe but personally, I still wouldn't smoke your weed... sorry but I'm a bit sceptical when it comes to such things (not because I don't know, rather the opposit -> see my profile ).

Thanks for the info guys.

Now what is also important to know is how much of what has been sprayed has even been absorbed by the plants. How rapid is the degradation? Google research show half life expectancy of 5 - 12 days in crops like rice or banana.

I also read that warm temperature can speed up the metabolism. So fast metabolism improves degradation of the fungicide? I have no background knowledge in this whatsoever, but I can imagine that agricultural crops may degrade these chemicals slower because the climate conditions aren't perfect. It can get cold at night, low temps slows down the metabolism. According to the company who made Rondo Combi,
the 3 weeks before harvest period is even valid for worse growing conditions like a crop of salad in a greenhouse in winter.

I also read that applying hydrogen peroxide helps degrade fungicides as well?

I can't even express how frustrated i am at the moment. This grow started so well, and I had high expectations trying to make up what i lost last time. If this product hasn't been recommended to me, i would have stayed using milk and could have enjoyed some dank nugs by 420 this yr. Now i'm not sure if i even finish the grow.. i'm at day 10 after 12/12. Man the guy told me i could even use during early flowering, just dont hit the buds. I don't know if I'm more mad at him or me that i didn't do my research before using it.

 

[Only Ornamental]

conversely there are no tests of these chemicals in indoor environments to deem that they are processed the same way by the environment

also there are no tests of these chemicals in conjunction to exposure through other agricultural products

these tests are always one chemical on the test subject, not the matrix of agricultural containments we are exposed to in our foods nor on test subject with compromised immune or health systems (aka people who use it as medicine)

1st statement: It can safely be assumed that difenoconazole showes a higher stability indoors. Use Google and one of the hits on the first page leads you to this link where you find indoor data concerning light (UV) exposure and so on. No matter what, the stuff is pretty stable and for safety reasons sticking with an approximate amount of 100% non-degraded material after 10 weeks (might be around 80%) should be ok.

2end statement: WTF... stable is stable and hopefully greenops didn't used reactive compounds to dilute the stuff and neither waters his plants with aggressive chemicals instead of water .

3th statement: Maybe someone with a compromised immune system shouldn't smoke in the first place? Also, consuming things for recreational reasons should be done with even more care than consuming something as a medicine. The former has no real value and is done for a long time, the latter may have benefits justifying some adverse reactions and is often only consumed for a short period. Also, an impaired health doesn't mean a lower metabolism and for example a cytochrome mutation (which might hamper difenoconazole break down) usually doesn't make the affected person visibly ill (but can kill when the wrong stuff is consumed).

Got to go, dogs are crazy...

 

[Only Ornamental]

Air circulation has something to do with it?

Now what is also important to know is how much of what has been sprayed has even been absorbed by the plants. How rapid is the degradation? Google research show half life expectancy of 5 - 12 days in crops like rice or banana.

I also read that warm temperature can speed up the metabolism. According to the company who made Rondo Combi,
the 3 weeks before harvest period is even valid for worse growing conditions like a crop of salad in a greenhouse in winter.

I also read that applying hydrogen peroxide helps degrade fungicides as well?

Hi again,

Indoor metabolism/degradation has to be regarded as minimal. Resorption, as said, is low (for safety reasons may be estimated as high as 20%) and metabolism in plants usually is temperature dependent but, as there is not much of a metabolism here, can be ignored.
Your mistake with the factor of 10 changes something
Also the note concerning salad in a greenhouse.

H2O2 will degrade a lot, under others ehhh.... THC... whether the degradation products of difenoconazole are less toxic is unknown BUT one of the oxidation products of THC is CBN (and that stuff is roughly 15 times more toxic than difenoconazole ).

Honestly, I guess that you wouldn't get hurt by consuming you stuff especially when the plants were as small as those on the pic when treated.
That I don't use pesticides at all on my edible garden plants is more of a subjective and ethical decision...

 

[GreenDream]

Well, there is some good news. I read that link provided by OO and it looks like there is very little translocation from the sprayed foliage to the fruits tested. Most samples exhibited lower than 5% translocation. So, one can surmise that since you sprayed before flowers occurred, they should only receive at most 10% of the original residue and metabolites. (Grapes seemed to have the highest translocation of up to 10%. (Unless I read it wrong... it's early and I haven't had my coffee, lol)

 

[greenops]

Hi again,

Indoor metabolism/degradation has to be regarded as minimal. Resorption, as said, is low (for safety reasons may be estimated as high as 20%) and metabolism in plants usually is temperature dependent but, as there is not much of a metabolism here, can be ignored.
Your mistake with the factor of 10 changes something
Also the note concerning salad in a greenhouse.

H2O2 will degrade a lot, under others ehhh.... THC... whether the degradation products of difenoconazole are less toxic is unknown BUT one of the oxidation products of THC is CBN (and that stuff is roughly 15 times more toxic than difenoconazole ).

Honestly, I guess that you wouldn't get hurt by consuming you stuff especially when the plants were as small as those on the pic when treated.
That I don't use pesticides at all on my edible garden plants is more of a subjective and ethical decision...

It seems u know what you're talking about. May i ask u where u get your knowledge from?

But wait, what you're saying regarding H202 is news to me... I've read that H202 is commonly used as a safe fungicide. CBN makes people slow, but is it really more toxic than difenconazole? If that's so then i guess I'm pretty safe.

What if i shower my plants with hydrogen peroxide before buds are produced... will there still be THC converted into CBN?

 

[greenops]

Well, there is some good news. I read that link provided by OO and it looks like there is very little translocation from the sprayed foliage to the fruits tested. Most samples exhibited lower than 5% translocation. So, one can surmise that since you sprayed before flowers occurred, they should only receive at most 10% of the original residue and metabolites. (Grapes seemed to have the highest translocation of up to 10%. (Unless I read it wrong... it's early and I haven't had my coffee, lol)

Thanks man. I can't hardly understand these texts as english isn't my first language. However I remember reading somewhere, in one of the Eagle20 debates, that buds are flowers and not fruits... therefore chemicals move easier to buds than fruits. Not sure if that's true though.

I tried to find the statement u mentioned regarding the translocation but i couldnt find it.

However when I type Difenoconazole and translocation in google, the following statement keeps popping up:

Difenoconazole is systemic fungicide with preventive and curative action. Absorbed by the leaves, with acropetal and strong translaminar translocation.

Maybe it's more advertisement of the fungicide than fact... but i have to be sure =)

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hydrogen peroxyde may help agains some fungal infections and even if it doesn't, it leaves no residues (degrades very fast into oxygen and water). From what I've seen/read, people use that (and also water curing) on cannabis believing such treatment completely removes and/or inactivates all unwanted chemical products in and on the plants... that's ridiculous. Most of the potentially harmful compounds for smokers are lipophile (poorly soluble in water) and/or in the interior of the plant where they won't get into much contact with H2O2 (as that is a aqueous solution) and those things also don't leach out easily. The thing with the CBN was just an example, even washing your harvest with a low-percentage solution won't kill off all the THC that easily .

Use it against powdery mildew, even as prevention, during growth will pose no problem; it may even cause 'beneficial stress' reactions (like with stress hormones). The cuticula protects the plants pretty well against direct wetting except for infested areas; from my observations I can tell that the parts with PM get easily wetted whereas the water droplets perle off of healthy leaves. That way, hydrogen peroxyde will work better on infected parts and minimally damage (if at all) you harvest. A looot better/safer for consumables!

BTW I'm a pharmacist with a PhD in pharmaceutical biology and work as a pharmacognosy/phytochemistry scientist. That's why I know a bit about these things...

 

[greenops]

1st statement: It can safely be assumed that difenoconazole showes a higher stability indoors. Use Google and one of the hits on the first page leads you to this link where you find indoor data concerning light (UV) exposure and so on. No matter what, the stuff is pretty stable and for safety reasons sticking with an approximate amount of 100% non-degraded material after 10 weeks (might be around 80%) should be ok.

What does high stability mean? That it doesn't degrade rapidly?
Also in your link, i found something that worries me:

Estimated aerobic soil metabolism half-lives for difenoconazole at 20 ̊C r
anged from 63 to 700 days (n=12) with a median
of 181 days. When difenoconazole is used on root an
d tuber crops its residues in soil are likely to
persist until harvest.


63 - 700 days is a pretty long time! Does this info only relate to plants that have been watered with Difenoconazole? I mean i sprayed the plants on leaves and stems but the solution surely dripped on the medium. I'm growing in Coco by the way. Does excessive flushing help get this thing out of their system?

 

[Only Ornamental]

High stability means stable against chemical, physical and biological degradation.
So, it is resistant against oxygen (air), UV (light), hydrolysis (water) and microbial metabolism. Once you have it, you're stuck with it .
Maybe one part of the 'cleaning process' on leaves is due to rain/irrigation? Good thing though, it will not be resorbed well but mainly remain in the soil and just stick to the coco fibres. Degradation products on the other hand... they get soluble and could be flushed out with water or the get resorbed by the plants. You might probably prefer changing the coco before the next grow...

 

[Granger2]

Here's a good article explaining LD-50 and LC-50. LD-50 measures acute toxicity only. Death from a single dose or exposure. It does not address carcinogenicity, damage that is non lethal [e.g. organ damage], etc. Does not address long term damage. Note also that "Half Life" means that after the interval [e.g. half life 60 days] half of it remains. In another 60 days, half of that [1/4] remains.
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/ld50.html

To control PM use Actinovate multiple apps. It is an antibiotic producing bacillis. I would also spray the room and all sides and bottoms of containers. Acceptible for organic production. Order from a source that does a volume business, and check the date on the pkg. when received. Good luck. -granger

 

[greenops]

High stability means stable against chemical, physical and biological degradation.
So, it is resistant against oxygen (air), UV (light), hydrolysis (water) and microbial metabolism. Once you have it, you're stuck with it .
Maybe one part of the 'cleaning process' on leaves is due to rain/irrigation? Good thing though, it will not be resorbed well but mainly remain in the soil and just stick to the coco fibres. Degradation products on the other hand... they get soluble and could be flushed out with water or the get resorbed by the plants. You might probably prefer changing the coco before the next grow...

Hmmmm... but isn't the fact that this product has a high stability make it even more risky?

Sorry for asking so many questions... just need to determine if i should quit this grow right now or continue. I mean I truly hope i can finish it, but not if it's risky to anyone's health.

But I'm not talking about exaggerated risks. Otherwise i might as well stop using wifi, smartphones and microwaves.