Rebuilding Appion G5

[nakadashi]

@rb I was referencing color and quality as circumstantial evidence that there was no oil pollution in the extract. We will be adding a backside scrubber to prevent any catastrophic leakage of pump oil, and we regularly vac still our butane supply to prevent significant contamination.

Honestly I don't think we could go back to a noisy pump like an appion. Probably just stop extracting all together. Hopefully we can get something that will satisfy everyone and remain nice and quiet while doing so.

@naka. Symptoms of a failing appion were changes in the high pitched scream and leaks. There is really no specific warning.

Your caresaver is that quiet? I built a box to go around my Appion so it wasn't so noisy which cut the noise down significantly but a quieter pump right out of the box would be so much better..

 

[Breakover]

Your caresaver is that quiet? I built a box to go around my Appion so it wasn't so noisy which cut the noise down significantly but a quieter pump right out of the box would be so much better..

Omg yes. It's slightly louder than a refrigerator.

You can actually hear yourself think. Lol.

 

[rb extractors]

There's a decent rebuild tutorial here: http://www.hbbpro.com/pdfs/G5_Twin_Rebuild_Recommendations.pdf

He misses a lot of points however.

I'll try to take some more pix of my next Appion rebuild.

I like the fact that Reftec seems to realize the market for a good pump for this industry but I don't see anything about the Reftec that is any different from the Appion engineering wise. Virtually all recovery pumps share similar design characteristics. They are all relatively light duty small displacement compressors with very high compression ratios.
All have aluminum pistons and cylinders which are teflon coated after anodizing. All use a similar type of seal for the piston. They all run very high piston speeds with marginal cooling. "teflon seals" means diddly.
They are intended for use with gases that usually have positive pressure and at least traces of lubricants.

The Reftec Handivac looks like two of their Diablo pumps in one housing.

The real number that needs to be published but nobody does is actual cylinder displacement. That will determine how much they can pump for the most part.

The Caresaver was desiged for the European refrigeration industry which is starting to use flammable refrigerants. The safety Nazis demanded a full enclosed recovery pump that couldn't trigger a fire in a room filled with flammable gas. It was NOT designed for pumping butane. It also has a oil bath crankcase so in the event that a piston seal starts failing a lot of crankcase oil will enter the gas being pumped.

Non oil-less designs shouldn't be used for product consumed by humans in my opinion.

The Reftec also seems to use a pressurized crankcase design which has another potential flaw. If the crankshaft bearing starts to weep grease the grease will get washed away and get into the gas stream.
The pressurized crankcase is better as any blow-by of the piston seal can't escape to atmosphere, but any crankshaft bearing contamination can also enter the fluid stream. A simple modification could keep the crankcase isolated from the fluid stream though.

The Appion will leak to atmosphere if a piston seal goes however, so close attention to any unusual noise while running is needed. We also do a pre-run pressure check to see if there is any pressure loss on the inlet side.

Bottom line is that refrigerant recovery pumps just aren't designed for the use they see in extraction systems. Without good pre-filters and an after-cooler they prone to failure. They are made to be light weight so a tech can pack them around but that means a lot of durability gets designed out in favor of light weight.

There are Fully hermetic, completely oil-less pumps that will do the job but the cost is enough to make your butt pucker.

If one of the leading refrigerant pump companies was smart they'd design a pump for this application and show users how to use it properly. (oh yeah, sub $2k price wold be kewl) Reftec, Appion et al: Are you listening?

I can certainly pose your questions to the reftec people and see what they have to say. I do know they handivac is basically using two diablo motors, is considered more for commercial use, etc. They understand that we tend to run our units longer than they are normally used in the refrigeration industry, etc. The unit they are working on for us will include explosion proof motors, maybe a beefier motor to handle longer runs, etc.

I do know the caresaver isn't an ideal solution for us more so than the appion as it is slower and isn't oilless. I mean all of these units aren't perfect, nor will there likely ever be one that meets all our needs, etc.

Reftec is listening which is why myself and others are working with them to make a pump more suited for us.

 

[JColtrane]

When I saw Regis's caresaver run I said "Is it on?" lol

 

[rb extractors]

@rb I was referencing color and quality as circumstantial evidence that there was no oil pollution in the extract. We will be adding a backside scrubber to prevent any catastrophic leakage of pump oil, and we regularly vac still our butane supply to prevent significant contamination.

Honestly I don't think we could go back to a noisy pump like an appion. Probably just stop extracting all together. Hopefully we can get something that will satisfy everyone and remain nice and quiet while doing so.

@naka. Symptoms of a failing appion were changes in the high pitched scream and leaks. There is really no specific warning.

but that is all it is... circumstantial. really, just opinion based on nothing that couldn't be from something else. oil pollution? as in oil from the caresaver getting into your extract? how would you be able to tell anyway?

for the price, the caresaver is a horrible option. they do make these things called ear plugs, and they do wonders for making sounds very manageable

 

[rb extractors]

@rb Thanks for the "real talk" bro!!! What "expensive" oil less pumps are you refering too? I'd like to start studing design of these machines so I can start speaking inteligently about recovery pumps.

why would you want to study the design of these machines? are you having trouble sleeping at night?

I think the reftec diablo or handivac might be better suited for our application

 

[rb extractors]

When I saw Regis's caresaver run I said "Is it on?" lol

to be fair, I don't think Regis is very happy with his caresaver. Maybe he will chime in on this thread

 

[JColtrane]

Oh I know he's not happy ... and i'm not trying to defend the carsaver, trust me.

 

[Breakover]

but that is all it is... circumstantial. really, just opinion based on nothing that couldn't be from something else. oil pollution? as in oil from the caresaver getting into your extract? how would you be able to tell anyway?

for the price, the caresaver is a horrible option. they do make these things called ear plugs, and they do wonders for making sounds very manageable

We vac still our gas periodically to remove any built up contaminants (monoterpenes, water).

If there was pump oil polluting the solvent, we'd see it after vac stilling.

My day job is in the natural gas compression industry, I am familiar with ear plugs. Thanks.

 

[rb extractors]

@jcol... no, I didn't take it that you were. I'd love a pump that was quiet like that but with much better performance.

@nlabs... we run a take apart filter drier in front of the appion and after the recovery tank so that butane is cleaned before entering the system.

glad you are familiar with ear plugs

 

[Breakover]

@jcol... no, I didn't take it that you were. I'd love a pump that was quiet like that but with much better performance.

@nlabs... we run a take apart filter drier in front of the appion and after the recovery tank so that butane is cleaned before entering the system.

glad you are familiar with ear plugs

We have a couple of filters before the pump, and there's an on board inlet separator, but after this revelation we will be adding discharge filtration.

Thanks for the info.

 

[rb extractors]

how big a system are you running?

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

Here are my Posts with the Caresaver Guts Pictures and here is the one with the Compressor info

Rickey was nice enough to send me some info on the Hermetically Sealed Compressor (Big black thing) inside. Also showed me the Difference between oil-less and oil-free compressors (ya they are different).

Calling Matt Ellis is useless, he completely avoids the point. Also he just got a huge order of caresavers in so he probably wouldnt say anything bad about them to protect his own interests. The caresaver also doesn't do well at low pressures, as soon as it hits 0 you have to hit a low pressure override switch that only goes for 2 min to get it down to -10Hg. I asked matt ellis about this and he said that i need higher pressure for it to work properly, and told me to not cool my butane tank on ice to get the pressure up, and also suggested using propane instead. I think it is clear that matt is altering the extraction to fit his equipment ideally rather than altering the equiptment to meet the ideal extraction.

Besides that, it is quiet as hell, and the few times i used it, the extract came out great. the noise factor is worth the decreased speed, but the possiblity of lubricant oil contam is too much for me so i wont be using it anymore.

Pm me if your interested in a discounted, used only 3 times, caresaver lol

 

[Gray Wolf]

Here are my Posts with the Caresaver Guts Pictures and here is the one with the Compressor info

Rickey was nice enough to send me some info on the Hermetically Sealed Compressor (Big black thing) inside. Also showed me the Difference between oil-less and oil-free compressors (ya they are different).

Calling Matt Ellis is useless, he completely avoids the point. Also he just got a huge order of caresavers in so he probably wouldnt say anything bad about them to protect his own interests. The caresaver also doesn't do well at low pressures, as soon as it hits 0 you have to hit a low pressure override switch that only goes for 2 min to get it down to -10Hg. I asked matt ellis about this and he said that i need higher pressure for it to work properly, and told me to not cool my butane tank on ice to get the pressure up, and also suggested using propane instead. I think it is clear that matt is altering the extraction to fit his equipment ideally rather than altering the equiptment to meet the ideal extraction.

Besides that, it is quiet as hell, and the few times i used it, the extract came out great. the noise factor is worth the decreased speed, but the possiblity of lubricant oil contam is too much for me so i wont be using it anymore.

Pm me if your interested in a discounted, used only 3 times, caresaver lol

Thanks for dropping your Caresaver by for testing bro. As you note, it isn't oil less, so we won't be using it for extraction.

 

[Breakover]

Here are my Posts with the Caresaver Guts Pictures and here is the one with the Compressor info

Rickey was nice enough to send me some info on the Hermetically Sealed Compressor (Big black thing) inside. Also showed me the Difference between oil-less and oil-free compressors (ya they are different).

Calling Matt Ellis is useless, he completely avoids the point. Also he just got a huge order of caresavers in so he probably wouldnt say anything bad about them to protect his own interests. The caresaver also doesn't do well at low pressures, as soon as it hits 0 you have to hit a low pressure override switch that only goes for 2 min to get it down to -10Hg. I asked matt ellis about this and he said that i need higher pressure for it to work properly, and told me to not cool my butane tank on ice to get the pressure up, and also suggested using propane instead. I think it is clear that matt is altering the extraction to fit his equipment ideally rather than altering the equiptment to meet the ideal extraction.

Besides that, it is quiet as hell, and the few times i used it, the extract came out great. the noise factor is worth the decreased speed, but the possiblity of lubricant oil contam is too much for me so i wont be using it anymore.

Pm me if your interested in a discounted, used only 3 times, caresaver lol

That's odd. My caresaver shuts off around -10, not 0. It's kinda nice because it's semi automated and you don't have to babysit it as much.

We aren't having an issue with it being slower than the appion, but we have overkill on cooling capacity so that could be the difference.

We will add a discharge scrubber and we will continue to use it for extraction and keep you all updated. I know certain caresaver dealers are tight lipped, and I know they have a bunch of these out there on their extractors, but no one who has one is talking. So I will.

Did you buy your unit from Ellis or somewhere else?

 

[RegisPhilburn1]

I bought my unit from NAAS-ltd on eBay for 2050$. Had I bought it from Ellis I would definitely try to get a refund since he knows what we are using it for. I'm not sure I could make my case to the refrigeration guys in the UK. I only used it three times so I guess I might not have been doing it right, do you leave the lp override switch on the whole time?.

I really like your idea with the molecular sieve beads in a 4x6tc for a filter.. I feel like we could easily make our own filter driers out of TC parts, and have everything be sanitary grade. the demand is high enough that we need one specific to our industry. Care to post up any picks or how you guys designed your filter?

 

[Breakover]

I don't have any pictures of the filter handy, but it is just a 4" x 6" long sanitary Spool with a cap On either end. Onto the cap, We welded quarter inch fittings in and out of the chamber, put a quarter inch drop pipe on the inlet side and a rough SS screen fitted in a SS compression fitting on the outlet to keep from sucking up beads.

We used 3a mole sieve beads as the media, which can be regenerated in an oven and are normally used to dry ethanol. The chamber holds about 2 pounds of beads.

We keep the whole thing in a bucket of ice water to help condense moisture and any monoterpenes we may be recovering unintentionally. Usually regenerate the beads once a week.

 

[rb extractors]

@ Nlabs... where are you running this 4x6 spool?

 

[Breakover]

@ Nlabs... where are you running this 4x6 spool?

Between the collection pot and the pump.

 

[Breakover]

I bought my unit from NAAS-ltd on eBay for 2050$. Had I bought it from Ellis I would definitely try to get a refund since he knows what we are using it for. I'm not sure I could make my case to the refrigeration guys in the UK. I only used it three times so I guess I might not have been doing it right, do you leave the lp override switch on the whole time?.

I really like your idea with the molecular sieve beads in a 4x6tc for a filter.. I feel like we could easily make our own filter driers out of TC parts, and have everything be sanitary grade. the demand is high enough that we need one specific to our industry. Care to post up any picks or how you guys designed your filter?

Sorry, missed the question about the LP override.

We only use the override switch to start and end the recovery process.

Most of the time, we don't need to use it at the beginning if we have enough head pressure on the bulk tank to run the flood without using push pull. the pressure on the collection pot will usually hit the 17# restart point on the pump without assistance, and we stay above -10 throughout the rest of the flood/soak process.