Armchair scientest bashing BHO and closed loop systems

[r0kud]

Oh boy, where do I start with this one.

There is a gentleman named "Dose" on a cannabis community social network site called Shabong. At all started when a comrade of mine had mentioned closed loop systems. Dose got all upset and responded with

Thank you for the offer, but closed loop systems trap hydrocarbons which in turn lead to cell damage in the lungs.(NIH study confirmed this.)

lol What?

This guy then went on to say

I'm not bouncing anything. Everything is a scientific fact. Pick up an Organic Chemistry book and you'll see for yourself. I stated that butane is an organic hydrocarbon C4H10. C is carbon and H is hydrogen. If you combine it with something else, those atoms go through an ionic bond and end up in the finished product. We learned about ionic and covalent bonds in middle school. My editing was simply a reflection of why butane is bad for so many reasons. But it doesn't make CO2 any better. You now seem to be simply a pusher looking for a crowd to throw your products at because you wasted a bunch of money on expensive equipment, and you need customers to recoup your losses. The rest is simple science.

Last time I checked butane doesn't create ionic bonds? I'm pretty sure this is held together with "van der waals" forces. But lets keep going.

My claim isn't that a chemical bond cannot be broken. My claim is that residual hydrocarbons from the solvent are left behind due to the reaction of the covalent bonds in butane ionizing when butane reacts with oxygen, regardless of a closed or open system. When butane comes into contact with oxygen, it creates carbon dioxide and water. So, butane does form an ionic bond, as it undergoes the removal of an atom through chemical ionization. The chemical reaction is

2 C4H10 (g) + 13 O2 (g) 8 CO2 (g) + 10 H2O (g)

I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to saturated hydrocarbons.

As you can see, the chemical structure of iso-butane isomer and the butane molecule have vast differences. The principle thing of concern to note is the hydrocarbon chain H3C in the Iso-butane. This is an example of a hydrocarbon molecule that is not removed during purging, because it has undergone an exothermic reaction that leaves the atom in an ionic bond when butane reacts with oxygen.

What?

#3-Two key things. The first is that salts will allow butane to form bonds. But we are talking about the contaminants, not the butane itself.

Remember the water? Salt dissolves in it. The water evaporates away leaving salt behind. If there is water in the butane, and salt in the water, when the water evaporates away, the salts are left behind. This is elementary school science, if a chemist can't understand it, I don't know what to tell you.

Here is where he really reveals his lack of understanding of chemistry. Butane will not react with any salts present in a plant. Period. You can have "salts" of organic compounds and metals, which are called organometallic compounds, but they are typically highly reactive specialty reagents and not relevant to this discussion. An example would be butyllithium, C4H9Li.

You can view the entire thread here.

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

Well keep him there.
We have Our own resident BHO basher.

Peace; 1TT

 

[nakadashi]

Lol welcome r0kud. I know you from another forum and I am surprised you still let these idiots get the better of you, cuz man there are a LOT!

 

[r0kud]

Lol welcome r0kud. I know you from another forum and I am surprised you still let these idiots get the better of you, cuz man there are a LOT!

Thanks nakadashi! I've been a longtime lurker.

I don't know if I'm letting them get to me (or maybe I'm in denial about it lol). But its frustrating trying to keep up with someone that keeps throwing more crap at you than a pissed off horde of monkeys.

But you are right. I just need to make my case with people like this and move on. He is pretty much making a fool of himself on his own. If anyone can't see that then too bad.

 

[nakadashi]

You can only teach someone who is willing to learn.

 

[Kcar]

Can't find it...

 

[RHH]

Covalent bonds, not ionic or "van der Waals" forces are responsible for the structure of butane. Surprised both of you guys got that wrong?

The balanced equation given is for the combustion of butane but the activation energy needs to be reached for the reaction to proceed. In closed loop extraction, which is done under vacuum, there is limited oxygen to combust(which means an increase in the carbon monoxide to dioxide ratio).

I think he is right about free radical formation of butane...makes sense that it could happen... but in super small amounts.

Oh, and did anyone get the memo that it's not dangerous to inhale small quantities of butane? Really. You inhale worse stuff going outside. If you care that much you should probably stick to edibles.

 

[RHH]

Nvm he clarified further below about what he meant by the ionic bonding. He is a chemist(ry student?). Definitely a little over my head.

This is just so nitpicky its kind of ridiculous. In the end you're putting shit in your lungs that probably shouldn't be there. I'm not dead yet so I'll keep going.

 

[nakadashi]

I believe a chemist also once mentioned on this forum that even drinking butane would only hurt you to the extent that such a high concentration would freeze your innards and dissolve your cell walls similar to how it dissolves plant waxes.

 

[RHH]

Lungs are different than the stomach. The biggest issue, IMHO, is the inability of the cilia to remove these molecules and also the deposition of whatever is in the vape closer to the alveoli where there are no cilia. At that point macrophages eat the contaminants and stay there. Also any inflammation caused by anything in the vapor releasing cytokines(triggering inflammation) and the effect of chronic inflammation on lung tissue(fibrosis, reduction in capacity). Attribution of disease is obviously pretty tough due to bring unable to control for secondary causes, quantity used, other drug use, etc. So we will probably never know the effects of consuming X on our lungs unless it causes its own unique disease. For example, 99% of bronchogenic carcinoma (small cell lung carcinoma) is found in tobacco smokers... and almost all mesothelioma is asbest exposure.

 

[supermanlives]

I smoke ciggies, I drink , I done drugs in past cut with god knows what. I am tricked into eating gmo food and unknown additives and crap in meat, dairy and just about everything else. my saltwater fish has mercury in it. the list goes on . a bit of butane is the least of my worries atleast I get a buzz

 

[RHH]

Sorry if I came off as rude above... holidays are tough times. It's not personal and I apologize.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Oh boy, where do I start with this one.

There is a gentleman named "Dose" on a cannabis community social network site called Shabong. At all started when a comrade of mine had mentioned closed loop systems. Dose got all upset and responded with



lol What?

This guy then went on to say


Last time I checked butane doesn't create ionic bonds? I'm pretty sure this is held together with "van der waals" forces. But lets keep going.



I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to saturated hydrocarbons.



What?



Here is where he really reveals his lack of understanding of chemistry. Butane will not react with any salts present in a plant. Period. You can have "salts" of organic compounds and metals, which are called organometallic compounds, but they are typically highly reactive specialty reagents and not relevant to this discussion. An example would be butyllithium, C4H9Li.

You can view the entire thread here.

Sometimes a little knowledge and good smoke are a bad combination. It probably made more sense in the head of the person writing it, at least when they wrote it.

A good reason to vet profound revelations and epiphanies revealed to you while stoned, before running through the streets shouting them to the roof top.

Butane is a fully saturated simple Alkane, with all the bonds and orbits filled, so it isn't looking to bond with or share electrons with anything.

 

[northernkush]

Good info guys. A little over my head for someone just starting.

Gray wolf do you have time to send me some links that will help me understand the whole process of BHO and the science behind it?

I want to start trying to make some and so far I am reading about winterization and vac pumping and which is really the best. I plan to buy the equipment and do some trial runs(for me the best way to learn is to do) so if you have any advice or can point me to some tutorials or videos preferred!

That would be much much appreciated

Have a good day guys

 

[nakadashi]

Sorry if I came off as rude above... holidays are tough times. It's not personal and I apologize.

I for one am impressed at how many chemists we have on board. Always glad to learn from educated folks even if the delivery may not be the most pleasant.

 

[co2extractor]

First, Holy Grail of all oils is co2 concentrates.The fact that there is no inherit taste inflicted by co2 is a major advantage, it doesn't attach itself to the extract the way butane does, the methodology is non-flammable w co2, and easily makes BsHO noticeably second best or first place loser when compared to real oil produced from co2 and ethanol.

Oh boy, where do I start with this one.

There is a gentleman named "Dose" on a cannabis community social network site called Shabong. At all started when a comrade of mine had mentioned closed loop systems. Dose got all upset and responded with



lol What?

This guy then went on to say


Last time I checked butane doesn't create ionic bonds? I'm pretty sure this is held together with "van der waals" forces. But lets keep going.



I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply to saturated hydrocarbons.



What?



Here is where he really reveals his lack of understanding of chemistry. Butane will not react with any salts present in a plant. Period. You can have "salts" of organic compounds and metals, which are called organometallic compounds, but they are typically highly reactive specialty reagents and not relevant to this discussion. An example would be butyllithium, C4H9Li.

You can view the entire thread here.

 

[Kcar]

Not in my book. CO2 oil looks and tastes like shit. In my very honest opinion.

 

[nakadashi]

A wild CO2 extractor has appeared!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Good info guys. A little over my head for someone just starting.

Gray wolf do you have time to send me some links that will help me understand the whole process of BHO and the science behind it?

I want to start trying to make some and so far I am reading about winterization and vac pumping and which is really the best. I plan to buy the equipment and do some trial runs(for me the best way to learn is to do) so if you have any advice or can point me to some tutorials or videos preferred!

That would be much much appreciated

Have a good day guys

You might start with these.


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31950
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=168388
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=266761
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=212613
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/mk-iii-terpenator/
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/passive-butane-extractor-and-reclaimer/

 

[Gray Wolf]

First, Holy Grail of all oils is co2 concentrates.The fact that there is no inherit taste inflicted by co2 is a major advantage, it doesn't attach itself to the extract the way butane does, the methodology is non-flammable w co2, and easily makes BsHO noticeably second best or first place loser when compared to real oil produced from co2 and ethanol.

First place loser is an interesting choice of words, albeit ill placed.

BsHO of course plays heavily on the concept of BS, which seems appropriate in this case as well.

Thanks for another illuminating post. There may be zero usable content or supporting evidence with regard to extraction, but it does paint a vivid and interesting picture of you, the author.