Diesel Generator & General off grid thread

[DarthFader1]

1800rpm prime power generator its not worth it unless you plan on running 35+ lights i run 24 on 200amp service and pay 2k a month. fuel would be equal to electric costs at around 30-35 lights give or take. they do make some pretty ballsy generators. wouldnt mind getting my hands on one of those 200kw john deers you could run 150 lights off that all day.
a lot of work but can be done. good luck

Exactly. Working out your breakeven point between running genset & paying for grid power is key. Its clearly going to depend on power & fuel costs in your area but upon my previous initial calculations you breakeven exactly around where Aero has said (30-35 lights). So if your running say 15-20 lamps expect to pay around 50% more compared to grid more or less depending on your genset output. Any less than that and it quickly becomes very expensive and maybe uneconomical..

Im glad someone mentioned John Deere too they make amazing gensets and are seriously top of the line. That is all i would be looking at is heavy industrial brands such as the Deere's, Cat, Kubota, Siemen's, Hitachi etc..

 

[supermanlives]

my friend had a sweet 30k setup going on a like 65k genny. till he got snitched on that is.the ac guy got in trouble and sold everyone out.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

been considering a larger gen for almost a year now -

1st - propane is the way to go - diesel is not only dirty to burn it's dirty to store and goes bad if you don't "maintain" it. Do some research on the gen forums - they actually recommend pumping stored diesel fuel thru a filter system at least once a year, and twice is better. This is for stored diesel that hasn't left the tank for 12 months. It gels, bacteria gets in there and cause it to gel and that's what they're filtering out. And there are additives you add to help prevent the bacteria from developing but it still needs filtering annually. Then on top of that, there are additives you need to throw in during cold months as the diesel fuel will be too thick to flow properly - Then there's the injection system for the diesels - if that gelled fuel gets in there, you've got major down time tearing it down to clean out properly. Screw that bullshit. Propane is not only cheaper, but has an indefinite storage life unless it leaks out.

As far as a honda tri-fuel unit, i have a 13.5KW unit. Twin cylinder, air cooled 20hp engine. Problem is honda rates the engine at a 2500 hour svc life before major maintenace required (ie rings and maybe pistons). So if i ran that gen 24 / 7, i'd be rebuilding it 3 times + a year. I'd look at generators using water cooled automotive engines like isuzus or mitsubishis (that's what i'm looking at). At least you know the rated svc life. Water cooled for couple reasons, a) svc life will be longer, b) quieter when running, especially under load. And try to buy one that the rated wattage is 25-35% higher than your highest draw will be. And try to buy one setup for propane by the mfgr - there are outfits selling generic propane conversion kits - i almost bought one, did some research on it and it was a joke. Let someone else work out the bugs in converting it, ie the mfgr - they'll do a better job.

But keep in mind, even with propane, assuming that engine was never run higher than 65% of it's power output, you'll still be rebuilding that engine every 2.5 to 5 years. Is that worth the effort for what you're planning?

which ever gen you go with, identify the engine and do some research - mfgrs will have a spec sheet showing estimated service life, if you can't find it, check the engine's service manual - that'll have the recommended svc schedules listed.

just a suggestion

 

[yabbadabbado]

Try these sites lots of info. http://www.microcogen.info/ everything on what you want to run off grid and then some. http://listerengine.com/smf/ this is about a specific type of old british diesel engine that runs at 650 rpm single 6-8 hp and twin 10-16 hp simple to run and built like a shit brick house, just try to stay away from the listeroids from India not very well built copies of the originals.

 

[DarthFader1]

been considering a larger gen for almost a year now -

1st - propane is the way to go - diesel is not only dirty to burn it's dirty to store and goes bad if you don't "maintain" it. Do some research on the gen forums - they actually recommend pumping stored diesel fuel thru a filter system at least once a year, and twice is better. This is for stored diesel that hasn't left the tank for 12 months. It gels, bacteria gets in there and cause it to gel and that's what they're filtering out. And there are additives you add to help prevent the bacteria from developing but it still needs filtering annually. Then on top of that, there are additives you need to throw in during cold months as the diesel fuel will be too thick to flow properly - Then there's the injection system for the diesels - if that gelled fuel gets in there, you've got major down time tearing it down to clean out properly. Screw that bullshit. Propane is not only cheaper, but has an indefinite storage life unless it leaks out.

As far as a honda tri-fuel unit, i have a 18KW unit. Twin cylinder, air cooled 20hp engine. Problem is honda rates the engine at a 2500 hour svc life before major maintenace required (ie rings and maybe pistons). So if i ran that gen 24 / 7, i'd be rebuilding it 3 times + a year. I'd look at generators using water cooled automotive engines like isuzus or mitsubishis (that's what i'm looking at). At least you know the rated svc life. Water cooled for couple reasons, a) svc life will be longer, b) quieter when running, especially under load. And try to buy one that the rated wattage is 25-35% higher than your highest draw will be. And try to buy one setup for propane by the mfgr - there are outfits selling generic propane conversion kits - i almost bought one, did some research on it and it was a joke. Let someone else work out the bugs in, ie the mfgr - they'll do a better job.

But keep in mind, even with propane, assuming that engine was never run higher than 65% of it's power output, you'll still be rebuilding that engine every 2.5 to 5 years. Is that worth the effort for what you're planning?

which ever gen you go with, identify the engine and do some research - mfgrs will have a spec sheet showing estimated service life, if you can't find it, check the engine's service manual - that'll have the recommended svc schedules listed.

just a suggestion

See, this is exactly why i would never buy one of these cheaper gensets. Rebuilding the engine every 2500hrs?? Really? That is a joke for real yo. Get yourself a proper industrial genset like one of the brands i mentioned or similar and they would laugh at a 2500 hour rebuild. The best diesel engines on the market will go forever assuming they are serviced regularly. I don't see the diesel gelling or spoiling as a major problem either unless you live in the Arctic circle. Just add the necessary additives to the fuel and your good to go.

The other factor to consider is the resale value of a good genset is a whole lot stronger than some weaker/cheaper copy.

Like everything in life (well most things) you get what you pay for. Pay a bit more upfront and you will save money in the long run. It's as simple as that

 

[rives]

I think that most of the pertinent points have been touched on, but the big things to me are the cost of maintenance and fuel. While a properly maintained diesel can run a long time between rebuilds, even Caterpillar won't warranty them beyond 10,000 hours, and then only if they are doing the maintenance with full oil-sampling analysis, etc. The recommended service intervals (250 hours of operation for oil and filters) roll around pretty frequently if you are running 24/7, and a back-up machine would be almost a necessity. I installed a whole-house backup generator for a friend's elderly parents a couple of years ago, and our power was out for 4 days shortly thereafter. $800 worth of propane in 4 days with just normal residential loads. Expensive power.

 

[5th]

I don't see the diesel gelling or spoiling as a major problem

It is, and I'll explain why.

It's not so much the fuel that is the problem, its the conditions in which its stored/used.
If its in a storage/fuel tank/drum/jerry can, temperature changes (weather, sunlight) causes condensation to form within the tank.
(this happens not just in the Arctic but middle America aswell)

Diesel motors (the majority) come with fuel filters, those filters (plural dependent on motor size) will trap the water and keep it from entering the motor until saturated...and then they just starve the motor for fuel.

So lets just add these additives to the tanks...well that shit costs money, filter replacement costs money, down time costs money...lets not forget your time to do these things...and you have to know how to do these things...or else thats one other person on your land that knows what your doing.

Why not just take all this extra expense and time out of the equation and run propane?

The OP said for supplemental lighting/off grid living...not running 20k peak power.

 

[DarthFader1]

It is, and I'll explain why.

It's not so much the fuel that is the problem, its the conditions in which its stored/used.
If its in a storage/fuel tank/drum/jerry can, temperature changes (weather, sunlight) causes condensation to form within the tank.
(this happens not just in the Arctic but middle America aswell)

Diesel motors (the majority) come with fuel filters, those filters (plural dependent on motor size) will trap the water and keep it from entering the motor until saturated...and then they just starve the motor for fuel.

So lets just add these additives to the tanks...well that shit costs money, filter replacement costs money, down time costs money...lets not forget your time to do these things...and you have to know how to do these things...or else thats one other person on your land that knows what your doing.

Why not just take all this extra expense and time out of the equation and run propane?

The OP said for supplemental lighting/off grid living...not running 20k peak power.

Ahaha i just got schooled! (no sarcasm)

Thanks for explaining why this is an issue 5th. So it's mostly just temperature changes that cause issues with the storage of the fuel then.. Ok, if that is the case, maybe some peeps can chime in with how they store their fuel whilst maintaining a stable temperature. A climate controlled room is the obvious solution but EXPENSIVE. Underground tanks seem logical yes?

Don't get me wrong i liked the idea of propane but MY own personal concerns with this is definitely risk of explosions like superman said, and also, can propane gensets be run 24/7 for long periods of time whilst maintaining reliability at least on par with a diesel?

cheers
darth

 

[5th]

HA, not at all Darth. Just wanted to give the community something to stick in their minds when thinking about their options/decisions.

can propane gensets be run 24/7 for long periods of time whilst maintaining reliability at least on par with a diesel?

Not a chance in hell I'm afraid. Diesel motors are made with larger parts so they can be run longer/harder at lower RPM's

 

[The OrigF/clred]

i don't see any reason propane wouldn't be a fuel for 24/7 operation - it's just another fuel.

but what another poster said about purchasing a prime use generator (think that was the phrase) as in intended for primary 24/7 use vs for standby use - that's what i'd make sure you were buying.

Reason, mfgrs will build to a different standard for standby use. One example, a neighbor is or was an engineer at reynolds metals, in their aluminum casting division. They cast the aluminum cylinders for poulan chain saw engines - he said when they received the contract bid offer, the specs called for the cylinder to have a 50 hour svc life. Their logic was, they were marketing to the home owner market, not the professional user market. They had projected or estimated that the home or lot owner, might use it 5-7 hours annually. At 5 hours useage, it'd last 10 years - and when it failed, that homeowner would feel like he'd gotten decent svc out it - after all, he'd had it ten years. A professional tree cutter would burn that thing up well inside of one year. BTW, we had this conversation when he came over hearing me cussing my poulan chainsaw. But you get the point.

And what rives said about a backup generator - my main gen, the 18kw, last year gave me some issues 24 hours into an outage - i have a 6000 watt makita for emergency only items and non-cooling season use, so it served as a backup.

BTW, this brings up another point - you might make sure the generator of whatever you buy will operate the equipment, ie i don't know a lot about ballasts, but keep seeing talk about the new electonic or digital ballasts. Well, that makita gen is really a construction market generator and doesn't deliver clean enough electricity to operate my computer's APC - something to do with the sine wave (square vs modified vs pure - i'm fred flintstone of electronics, so if i mis-spoke here, go easy) - apparently construction equip (circular saws etc) don't require as clean a current as electronics do, so make sure you know what to look at when choosing

As to diesel storage or use issues - do some research on the generator forums

 

[supermanlives]

I never had any fuel probs . my tanks were in my basement and an extra under my deck. the one under deck got treated the others didn't.servicing a diesel aint hard anyone could do it. don't take long either. hell theres prob vids on youtube we aint in dark ages anymore. and there is reusable filters too for diesel . FWIW there are laws in some states on fuel storage tanks and what you can and cant do.

 

[rives]

FWIW there are laws in some states on fuel storage tanks and what you can and cant do.

This was the next point that I was going to touch on. In California, any buried tank larger than a conventional furnace tank for a residence (probably 250-300 gallons) needs to be double-walled, and I think that they have started requiring a pressurized air space between the walls with monitoring equipment to let you know if one of the tanks has failed.

In a nearby town, there is a small, arty-type store for the tourists to lighten their wallet in. They had an outside, above-ground tank, but the copper line feeding their heater didn't have secondary containment (run through another pipe). The acidic soil ate through the copper line and it dumped the full tank of diesel in the dirt-floor basement. I don't know if the store owners or the fuel company made the mistake of calling the county to let them know that there had been a leak, but the store has been closed since early summer and is now about 10' higher in the air then it is supposed to be, and they are packing out diesel-contaminated dirt with Bobcats. I have no idea how much this little operation is costing, but I bet it would scare the shit out of you.

 

[NN generator-e]

YC series diesel generators are best diesel generators. Look at it in the following.

 

[5th]

lol...wtf???

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

People who have done it say that Diesel is the only real option. Apart from the obvious servicing issues otheres have correctly flagged there is also the issue of how to get so much diesel so far up your mountain, so often.

Here in Spain there are a million remote farms available, most up dirt tracks, very romantic and attractive, until you see your track washed away by torrential rains ... one friend has abandoned his as he is unable to drive the last 2km since 2011. Another is paying E300 a month for new suspension ball joints etc for his van as his 12km track eats cars. Plus, delivery drivers are like Taxi drivers etc... they gossip.. Likewise Petrol Station workers, if you really do make the effort and go up into the mountains you might as well go large, big gennies eat hundreds of L of fuel each day, 1,000L weight around 1 ton, try imagining the effect on a track, the, the neighbours, walkers etc who will see you moving this.. it is not easy.

After talking to people who tried and seeing the results, I now recommend running a (no generator) Light Dep greenhouse over any remote gennie indoor setup. Likewise down in "civilisation" I always recommend setting up a decent well run grow for yourself over any amazing sounding dream project involving any partners or big warehouses.

 

[DarthFader1]

YC series diesel generators are best diesel generators. Look at it in the following.
View Image

Oh man that's straight gold

 

[DarthFader1]

People who have done it say that Diesel is the only real option. Apart from the obvious servicing issues otheres have correctly flagged there is also the issue of how to get so much diesel so far up your mountain, so often.

Here in Spain there are a million remote farms available, most up dirt tracks, very romantic and attractive, until you see your track washed away by torrential rains ... one friend has abandoned his as he is unable to drive the last 2km since 2011. Another is paying E300 a month for new suspension ball joints etc for his van as his 12km track eats cars. Plus, delivery drivers are like Taxi drivers etc... they gossip.. Likewise Petrol Station workers, if you really do make the effort and go up into the mountains you might as well go large, big gennies eat hundreds of L of fuel each day, 1,000L weight around 1 ton, try imagining the effect on a track, the, the neighbours, walkers etc who will see you moving this.. it is not easy.

After talking to people who tried and seeing the results, I now recommend running a (no generator) Light Dep greenhouse over any remote gennie indoor setup. Likewise down in "civilisation" I always recommend setting up a decent well run grow for yourself over any amazing sounding dream project involving any partners or big warehouses.

Awesome post bro, agree with everything

 

[supermanlives]

with what he wants fuel shouldn't be an issue really.and most of nor cal has decent roads that don't get washed away. I done a bit of backwoods travelin there. last trip was like 5 years ago . with my laptop gps and about 8z of weed., exploring and checking out potential properties I would like to buy possibly....... ya rives you pay for soil removal and then for getting rid of it special disposal fees. a fuel co will rat ya out quick as maybe they would be liable ? I tried to get a gas tank on commercial prop once. I gave up after all the crap\paperwork. but its better for environment I am told

 

[rives]

While I would agree that most of our roads are pretty stable here, I think that frequent large fuel drops to a remote location are going to get noticed. Whether or not that would be a problem would be up for debate, but everyone within miles is damn sure going to know what is going on.

 

[supermanlives]

While I would agree that most of our roads are pretty stable here, I think that frequent large fuel drops to a remote location are going to get noticed. Whether or not that would be a problem would be up for debate, but everyone within miles is damn sure going to know what is going on.

most backwoods folks know whats up with their neighbors lol with his demands for juice low with a few tanks he would be set up and not stand out too much depending on area. IMHO he could haul it himself with a truck and tank setup,but that would be a pain and costly all in all. when ya buy in summer and peeps ask its cause the prices are cheap man I aint dumb ya say, when its winter nobody asks and its cold .peace