Bubble cloner stem / root problem

[rastaman.fb]

Hi,

I have built a bubble cloner from information I gathered on this frum and put cuttings into it.
Now after about 10 Days I have some kind of brown algae on my stems.
The container of the bubbler is black so it cannot be a light problem.
The temperature in the room is exactly 25°C and the humidity about 30-40% and the water temp is around 20°C.
I used regular tap water with an ec of 0.2 (which is around 200+ppm) so my water is also ok.
The container was cleaned with hydrogen peroxide, but I did not put any into the water.

I have read on another thread that the brown stuff thats forming is a natural rooting hormone from the cuttings and nothing bad. But others have referred to it as some kind of algae which I don't know if its good or bad in terms of hindering the cuts to root.
It would be very painful to lose these cuttings so every little help is appreciated.

When cloning in my bubble cloner the cut tip turns brown in a day or 2. This is not rot or infection, it's the cutting building up natural rooting hormone in preparation to grow roots. That natural hormone is brown. If the tips are slightly brown there's nothing wrong but if that brown area gets all soft and mushy, then they are rotting. Give it a few days.

P.S.: My stems are not mushy or soft, they are "hard" but are covered with this brown stuff.

Thanks for your help.

 

[rastaman.fb]

The cutting with the small little roots is one that I moved into this container. So don't think it rooted in that container.

 

[Ole MacDonald]

Hey rasta... I've been through that, and I feel for you. Honestly, it's probably too late for those. But here's how to fix that problem in the future.

1. Use a water chiller. Keep your water at 67-68 degrees. I use frozen water bottles and just switch them out as needed.

2. Massive amounts of bubbles and Aquashield @ 10ml/gal. Aquashield contains beneficials that prevent the slime from growing. You can brew an EWC tea (or Humus), but I've found Aquashield works just as well. You have to add it every 5 days or so to keep the res sweet.

If those stems are mushy, then there's no saving them. To disinfect that system for your next round, you can:

1. Run Physan 20 in it @ 1ml/gal. Seriously no more than that. It will foam up and black stuff with come to the top. Totally normal. Be careful handling that stuff. Protect your eyes, skin, etc.

2. Empty it and run H2O2 3 ml/gal of 29% or 30 ml/gal of 3% to wash out the physan and clean up any leftovers.

3. Refill the res with clean water, whatever cloning solution you use, and Aquashield @ 10 ml/gal. Don't add H2O2 or it will kill the beneficial bacteria in the Aquashield.

The magic cure: Cool temps, dissolved oxygen, and beneficials.

That brown slime algae is actually a cyanobacteria, and it is vicious. It usually starts out as clear snot-looking stuff. One way to check what it is:

Measure the ph of your water. If it is really low, then you are probably dealing with pythium. if it is really high, then you've got the slime. I've seen cuttings start out slimed, and then turn into rot. Crazy. It's like the slime clears the way for root rot or stem rot.

Good luck!

 

[Ole MacDonald]

Also... if you want to try and save the cuttings, you can safely run Physan 20 (1 ml/gal) with the cuttings in the res. That stuff is amazing, but must be handled with care. Run the Physan (in new water) for 30-60 minutes with the cuttings, and it will clean them, as long as they are submerged or getting sprayed by the bubbles from your air pump. Then run the H2O2 (with new water) with the cuttings in there. Then add the Aquashield and stuff to another new batch of water to get them to root again.

Not sure if I mentioned it in the post above, but for each step (Physan, H2O2, and Aquashield) you want to start with new water each time.

Peace and happy rooting!!!!!!!!

 

[rastaman.fb]

So you basically mean I can throw them away ?? Or I can recut and put them back in ??
I am very confused with the information I am gathering because everyone is saying something different.
I appreciate the answer.

Also I don't get that people with clear containers and not all that much of a super clean clinical setup have perfect results.

Would it help if I put some hydrogen peroxide into the water ??
I don't need a water chiller since the temperature is perfectly at 20-21°C. (please use a unit with your temps, I know that you mean °F but its easier to read and removes confusion for some).

Also there is one from that batch, that also has this kind of slime but it rooted fine. So a lot of confusion.

 

[Ole MacDonald]

Probably the one with root started rooting before the bacteria got to it, and when it moved to the res with the bacteria, it stopped growing. Roots won't grow in the presence of that bacteria, even if you can't see it right away. The roots that have already formed just sit there in a stasis once it shows up.

As far as what to do with the clones, that is up to you. If you want to try and save them, it might be worth a shot, but I don't know how mushy the stems are. If the tops look like they've got some time, and the stems aren't too mushy, then you could try and save them. By saving them, I mean run the Physan, H2O2, Aquashield program I outlined above. But you will need to do it very soon to have success. If you don't have access to Physan, you can use H2O2 to clean up the slime before introducing beneficials. But H2O2 only lasts for a short time, especially if it has organic material to interact with.

Just putting hydrogen peroxide in the water may slow the development of the bacteria for a short time, but it won't cure your problem. The "slime" loves oxygenated water, so it doesn't have as powerful an effect. H2O2 will eat organic material until it is used up or dissapates, so you have to keep adding it for it to be stay effective. The problem with continually adding it is that you don't know exactly how much is left, if any at all. This means you run a high risk of adding too much or not enough.

The best thing to do is to change the water and add hydrogen peroxide to kill the bad bacteria, and then empty the res and add something to prevent the slime from coming back. That could be beneficials or a sterilizing agent.

Sterile environments are effective as well. You just have to pick one or the other, and stick with it. Some people use household bleach with great success, but be very careful not to add too much! There are threads that have measurements for using bleach, I personally have never done it. Others use more costly sterilizing products like Clear Res or Pythoff. Whatever route you choose, make sure you clean that machine first. None of these methods will work if you don't kill the slime first. Physan is the single most effective way to eliminate it that I have found. But as I am typing this, I am realizing you are probably not a U.S. resident, since you are using Celsius, and you may not have access to Physan 20. I don't think it exists in Europe.

Sorry for the long-winded answer. To sum it up: If you want to try and save the clones that are in there (if you can't get Physan 20)

Add 3-4 ml/gal of 29% hydrogen peroxide. Or 30-40 ml/gal of the 3% stuff. Run this for 2-4 hours to kill the slime.

Next empty the res and change the water. Add either beneficials or a sterilizing agent to prevent it from coming back. I prefer Aquashield and have the best success with it.

You can do this with the clones still in the machine, but if it were me, I would take them out and take new cuttings that are healthy. If you decide to take the cuttings out and start over, then you can up your peroxide to a high dosage, or use bleach to clean the machine. That would be easiest. Don't use peroxide and bleach at the same time, because they cancel each other out.

Hope this helps clarify.


Sorry for forgetting to mark my temperatures. =)

 

[justanotherbozo]

high man, i'm afraid i agree that those are probably lost, cloning can be a difficult skill to master, first because the conditions for rooting have to be right and second because there are so many different methods to choose from.

...anyway, below i've linked to FreezerBoy's thread where he has gathered links to quality threads on each of the different options as well as a link to my own preferred method.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169382CLONERS- a collection of various methods

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=42847World class cloner new at walmart

...btw, here is a pic of my own bubble cloner that i used with great success for nearly a year before i found the Walmart cloner and retired the bubbler.

...and a couple of the Walmart cloner which in my mind is a superior approach being passive so no pumps or chillers are needed and also being extremely economical.

...bubble cloners are cool and they work really well until they don't and some times you can really beat your head against the wall trying to figure out why it no longer works.

...with the Walmart cloner it's so simple to run that if you just follow a few simple instructions you almost can't fail.

peace, bozo

 

[farmdalefurr]

Rapid rooter plugs, seedling tray with dome and a heat mat....... Done deal

I've been through the bubble cloner/ezcloner problems before and it's not fun to watch cuts go to waste

Like a previous poster said, there can be bacteria growing in a cloner and you'd never know it until cuts start wasting away

We've all been there

 

[rastaman.fb]

If you read my post I stated that NONE! of the stems are mushy. Not a single one. And the clone with roots is growing roots fine. I have checked for exactly that: slow root growing and the roots grow with a regular speed.

Also I don't see how there are different methods to a bubble clone (if we are talking bubble cloner no ez cloner with spray nozzles), as far as I know there is one method: clean container with lid, aquarium pump, airstone not too much light and tap water (of decent quality).
Doesn't sound too complicated.

The cuttings have growth on top I can see new leaves are growing since I cut them in the beginning and ALL! of them have new leaves.
From the top part they look like regular cuttîngs at this stage.

I'll take them out. Change the container , recut the stems and put them back in with H2O2.

 

[rastaman.fb]

justanotherbozo: I appreciate your posting of your method, but my goal is to be free of all extra materials for my grows. The only "extra" thing besides plants and containers that I want to have are the hydrocorrels used to stabilize the plants in my dwc net pot. So that the only thing I have to buy are nutrients - nothing more. No waste. Nothing. Just water that I can easily dispose in my bathtub.


Anyway thanks for your suggestions guys.
But I would really like to know what the people that say that this is some 'good' form of algae. I now have two opinios stating that this is bad bacteria, but why do some say it's good and some say it's bad ?! Confusing.

 

[Ole MacDonald]

Rasta, I'm drawing the conclusion that make suggestions won't help, so I will leave you with this. Any grower worth their salt will tell you from the pictures that your stems are not suffering from "beneficial algae."

Best of luck.

 

[justanotherbozo]

...yeah man, bubble cloning is only one method of cloning but home made bubblers vary widely according to each builder and some work better than others.

...to really master bubble cloning i'd recommend you read SEVERAL bubble cloner threads to gain as many perspectives as possible, ...you'll be surprised by some of the stuff you can learn this way which is why i posted that first link above, FreezerBoy hasn't been around for over a year so you won't remember him but he was a cool dude and very helpful AND very knowledgeable too, he was a gifted grower in his own right and if you go looking for his other threads i think you'll enjoy what you find.

...the point though is that he took the time to collect and compile links to most of the BEST of the threads on MANY different methods of cloning, ...which simply means you will find links to bubblers too.

...also, i only posted up a few pics of my preferred method to illustrate it's elegant simplicity and not to suggest it is a 'better' method, just that it is a more simple, and therefore more failsafe, method.

...i used to run DWC's myself and i also ran a high-density micro-SOG in a small cab so i've tried MANY different approach's to skin this cat and for me at least simple is good. if i don't use pumps they can't fail on me, period.

...so now i run PASSIVE hydroponics in the form of coco hempy buckets that give me results similar to my DWC's but with MUCH less work and worry.

...as for products i buy coco at $11.00 per 5kg bale that expands to enough so i can do 2 to 3 complete flower runs for that 11 bucks, AND i reuse that coco at least 2 or 3 times so it is VERY econimical, ...then i feed KISS style with Jack's Pro Hydro and that cost me less than $100.00 for a 25lb bag of the base and a 25lb bag of the calcium/nitrate delivered to my door, ...i've been using this now for almost 2 years and i haven't used even a quarter of it so i expect i have enough for maybe 4 years more, easy.

...anyway, good luck with your cloning issues, i honestly hope you can figure it out.

peace, bozo

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

So you basically mean I can throw them away ?? Or I can recut and put them back in ??
I am very confused with the information I am gathering because everyone is saying something different.
I appreciate the answer.

Also I don't get that people with clear containers and not all that much of a super clean clinical setup have perfect results.

Would it help if I put some hydrogen peroxide into the water ??
I don't need a water chiller since the temperature is perfectly at 20-21°C. (please use a unit with your temps, I know that you mean °F but its easier to read and removes confusion for some).

Also there is one from that batch, that also has this kind of slime but it rooted fine. So a lot of confusion.

If I can get successful at cloning then that means a monkey can and you can do it to!

1. clean the tips of those clones off with hydrogen peroxide, I would just dip them or maybe spray them and then wipe them off to prevent cross contamination of any sort

2. get that tetra fishtank waterfilter ($11@walmart), it has a biofilter in it that will help to clean up, help stop/get rid of the brown slime and maintain your water.

** always pH your water until its stable, im going through or actually was going through my own lil fight over at my grow with that very same issue, pH doesn't happen overnight, it gets stable BUT it takes time depending on the beginning chemistry of your water.

3. i am not good with the math and conversions and shit, so all I can tell you is that its cold as hell at my grow area so that means that everything is just cold as shit (aka good for the plants then good for me!)

be clear, that brown slime shit is bad period! don't get confused about that or let anyone else tell you otherwise!! if it gets too bad then your gonna have to call it a day and yes toss everything BUT it seems as though its just on the stems so its not like its taken over and is just everywhere (its just on the stems right and not in/on the actual container or floating around in the water?)

personal experience: had it growing in 2x5glDWC's (no plants in at the time) so I saved the water; cleaned the buckets, tubing,airstones with bleach/dawn/water mixture; filtered the water through a double coffee filter funnel system (didn't feel like bubbling/dechlorinating,nuting/pH'ing another batch of water) and haven't had a stitich of trouble with it again or yet, had to use that very same water to top up my other plants and still not a peep and I am fucking neurotic when it comes to this hydro crap, love it but jeeeeeesus h. Christ it can truly be nerve racking!!!! (all that was done in beginning/mid November and my water is still crystal)

consider changing your tubing and airstones for that system, there are actually some bacteria that can thrive in and around those airstones, don't know about you but I know about bacteria just never had to get into it as much as I have as of late and I have learned some shit! I did notice that there was some tubular slime build up around the airstones at the time of draining and cleaning.

don't give up the ship just yet, there are those that have had waaaaay more experience with those types of issues, im learning about it all just like you, I just decided to treat the slime the same way I treat finding a male in and amongst the females and that is "kill it and kill it dead!!!"

ppl do swear by those filters though and its one of those "ounce or prevention/pound of cure" type things so I implore you to seriously look into it

***search out a cat on here called "TheCleanGame" he's helped me out immensely so far, seems to be a knowledgable/good cat so hopefully (and I really think he will) help you out with what your going through, there are many others but hes the one ive been jibbing with as of late

grow strong, and don't give them up yet!!! if they die while your searching that's one thing BUT if you toss them and then find something that could have saved them then that's a complete donkey cock in the ass that you don't want!

 

[farmdalefurr]

Nobody likes a donkey cock in the ass

Well, maybe some people

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

justanotherbozo: I appreciate your posting of your method, but my goal is to be free of all extra materials for my grows. The only "extra" thing besides plants and containers that I want to have are the hydrocorrels used to stabilize the plants in my dwc net pot. So that the only thing I have to buy are nutrients - nothing more. No waste. Nothing. Just water that I can easily dispose in my bathtub.


Anyway thanks for your suggestions guys.
But I would really like to know what the people that say that this is some 'good' form of algae. I now have two opinios stating that this is bad bacteria, but why do some say it's good and some say it's bad ?! Confusing.

heres a thread I found outside of IC: http://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka.html
**there are others here who know of this thread and poster as well!

heres some IC threads related to your topic:

Best thing I ever added to my rez:https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=254482

No more Slime aka Cyanobacteria: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=272778

know they enemy!!!

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

Nobody likes a donkey cock in the ass

Well, maybe some people

NOBODY!

 

[rastaman.fb]

Rasta, I'm drawing the conclusion that make suggestions won't help, so I will leave you with this. Any grower worth their salt will tell you from the pictures that your stems are not suffering from "beneficial algae."

Best of luck.

Yes Ole McDonald, it also looked bad to me at first sight, but since one does not always know everything, especially with a new method like this I resorted to the forums and there were a lot of contradicting informations around so I thought I might just ask and be sure about it.

@justanotherbozo: Trust me, I have read nearly all available information about bubble cloners I could find. I have successfully been running DWC systems for many years and have never encountered problems, apart from some technical appliances that failed on me, so it felt odd to me that I get this kind of problem on the first try. But thanks for your suggestions I will look through them. Actually the 'read all information, keep some' method is my standard modus operandi. My friends hate me for that, since whatever topic it is I will also look at some crappy youtube video because there could that special interesting fact that you couldn't have seen with skipping or neglecting the video at all (or whatever source of information it is).



Hey guys, so my final conclusion to this attempt was to forget about the clones since it was very clear that that stuff was not some kind of 'beneficial' algae and that is was something bad. So I made some new clones with my regular method and not a single cut failed to root.
I have also rebuilt the bubble cloner (100% the same method based on the information that I gathered). After 10 days, I had the same results that most of the people that show off their setups have: ~10cm roots. I wish I could show you some pictures, but I have already put them into a DWC system and they feel and look great.


Thanks for all your concern and suggestions.

 

[wantaknow]

use pool shock powder 1 gram per gallon, then a shot glass full in the cloner

 

[rastaman.fb]

Thanks for all these product suggestions, just remember there is a whole other part of the world apart from the usa. So there is a SLIGHT (read: very likely) chance that these are not internationally available.