Shatter VS Budder VS Wax VS SAP

[AlterEgo860]

ok so for some of us.. who don't have a huge oil scene around us ...

whats the difference between the 4. technique wise.. do u need to whip or use a grain alcohol wash to get there.. or?

basiclyl.. im hearing from some.. that there is no need at all for a vac purge and u can still get some of the best looking smelling tasting SHATTER.

some say its impossible.. to get shatter without a vac purge.. and some say u can turn wax or budder into shatter just by reheating it on a griddle


another thing.. is.. I smoked some of the TASTIEST OIL STRAIGHT SHATTER.. and it still stunk a lot.. and tasted great.. and wen dabbed nothing was left behind.. and it straight bubbled no sparking ... and he said he has a technique that's only a water bath.. and a long time of warming it up and whipping and then heating and continue..

but now I look.. and its like.. well if that's the case? why do some people say u cant get shatter without getting the waxs and shit out.?

please some1 explain some of this to us all that are interested..


thanks in advance to anyone who is going to contribute to this thread!

 

[Kcar]

That's a big question with alot of different answers...

Shatter will be the first form of the oleoresin after it is purged of solvent. (Be it with a vac or in the sun, or whatnot.)

How shattery (How hard at room temp) depends on how much plant waxes, lipids, chlorophyll, and such are left in the oleoresin.

It can range from Glass to Sap to Oil and everything in between.
One way to limit the junk in your oleoresin is by getting everything super cold before
starting. Also, higher quality indoor trim or nugs will probably yield a prettier resin
than outdoor or old trim or nugs.

The next form is wax. It's made by heating shatter to around 135f, whipping air into it, and vac purging.
After 30min to an hour it will start to cloud up, and tiny bubble (Co2) will form
and pop. Eventually, these popping bubbles will stay as holes in the resin and you have wax.

To make budder, I believe you whip the wax. Not sure, never tried.
To make Honeycomb - I have no idea...

 

[Momerath]

Big question indeed, let me see if I can elaborate a little more...

Kcar is right about the shatter. Whether its heat or vac purged, its the first and most stable form (if purged fully). Usually done at lower heat, and usually not whipped at all.

Winterizing your oil (assuming you didn't get it too hot and decarb it) will usually make a very nice, very stable shatter. Be sure to vac purge to get the remainder of that ethanol out.

Wax can be achieved several ways, but usually done in a vac under increased heat (can happen anywhere from 100f up depending on strain and depth of vacuum. I've gotten wax from temps between 100f and 135f from various strains)

Honeycomb is sometimes synonymous with wax, but in some circles is a different finish. I don't really consider it honeycomb unless it is fully dry and can crumble. A lot of vac wax comes out looking like honeycomb, but has a softer texture, sometimes like wet sugar or sand, sometimes like thick caramel, sometimes like parafin. Methinks this is strain and tech dependent. Drier material going into the extractor, usually results in lighter colored oil that dries up better than material that had a bit of moisture left in it. A honeycomb is basically just overpurged shatter. Take shatter that is mostly purged, fold it over on itself several times to make a thick patty, then repurge at slightly higher heat for a god-awful long time and bam, honeycomb. Don't overheat it too much though or you will wind up with a big gooey glob of partially decarbed wax. Some people whip the oil prior to the vac to achieve similar results.

Sap is usually from 1 of 2 things. Some sativa strains that are very rich in terpenes sometime make sappy oil. Another reason for sap is decarboxylation. If you decarb your oil (get it too hot for too long), it will remain a sap.

Budder is straight whipped oil, done over a hot water bath at medium temps (120-140) until it gets light and crumbly, not unlike dry cake frosting. Most budders are underpurged and will degrade rapidly due to their increased surface area. By far the least desireable finish (IMO), its basically for those that don't want to bother with a proper purge for a proper end product. Call me a snob, but budder is good oil WASTED!

Hope this helps

 

[UNREGISTRD]

SEARCH is your FRIEND.... Its all personal preference!!

 

[AlterEgo860]

ive been searching a lot. actually. probably spent a good 100 hours the last 2 weeks reading about shatter. waitin on my new tube to get here.. kuz im sick of playing with this tiny turkey baster..


also.. I was talking to someone who said if u want to increase yields of tastier oil.. and u want to use trim.. to make keif.. then use some bud.. that has lots of taste.. and blow it with that as a mixed batch.. and u can get a nice yield of tasty oil. with a small amount of butane..

I mite do it with the turkey baster. but I keep reading people talking abuot clogging shit.. how can u clog it with keif? really? wouldn't the trich heads melt.. and everything else act like the trim?

 

[rasputin]

All of the answers you seek are in this forum or on skunkpharm. Do some reading so you aren't relying on "some say" to figure out what's what.

Almost everything you say you're hearing from others is false.

 

[AlterEgo860]

sorry if u guys think im not trying to do the research.. but I read a lot of this site.. lot of 3 other forums.. and multiple good searches.. I got it down.. I just was looking at the difference..

this thread was supposed to be more like.. shatter is this.. budder is that.. wax is this.. and sap is that..

not a hey go do the work yourself doushebag.. I already looked it all up..

\I was just wondering. if say u have a better chance at shatter if u do this.. or if u whip it u get wax.. and if u want honeycomb u need to do a vac purge..

there is lots of misinfo.. and tons of threads with hundreds of pages.. and lots of posts from 2006-2009 .. lol I just wanted to make sure.. everything is still the same.. and if anyone had any techniques for it.. and or explain to the community what each is and a quick summary of how its made..

like shatter.. for instance im not saying this is true. just an example

Shatter= a butane extract.. hot water bath... whipping.. redisolved in grain alc.. froze. filtered . hot water bath.. then vac purged..

Wax = same sept whipped air into the finished product .,..

not saying that any of this info is true.. or fact.. but that's all I was looking for.

lastly.. I found capitalbutane.com.. a USA made N BUTANE.. has anyone had good results or even heard of this stuff.

 

[midwestHIGHS]

Your getting to caught up on these stupid names. Your end consistency will depend on your extraction, material, refinement and purge.

You can produce translucent bho (shatter, sap, oil) by properly purging in as thin of a film as possible, under deep vacuum of -29.9hg and constant heat of around 95F-115F. Using material that is old or kept in less the ideal curing conditions will be partially decarboxylated or possibly even fully. Using to much heat will obviously also cause decarboxylation during your purge, decarbed material or during your purge will create a very sappy, oily product rather then very fresh material which usually comes out quite stable and "shatter" like. Also high concentration of terpenes can also cause it to be slightly sappy even when extracted from freshly dried material and purged under proper temperatures. And finally a runny oil could also be due to trapped/unpurged solvent, this is a mistake most amature extractors get confused on, they think because it's sap/oily it always is residual solvent, well this maybe true depending on your stage of the purge, it is not always the case. It's always best to freeze your butane cans and tubes before use, if one doesn't plan to winterize or dewax, this will keep many of the plant waxes, lipids and fats from dissolving into the butane.

Wax- I don't like crystallized bho (wax, budder, honeycomb). There are many ways too improperly purge and create a wax, budder and honeycomb, not saying you can't have a clean wax, budder or honeycomb it's very possible, it's the fact the crystallized oil effects my lungs much worse than properly dewaxed/winterized translucent oils (sap, shatter, oil). Whipping, purging in thick slabs, agitation, access moisture, inconsistent temperatures all can cause nucleation points where crystallization of your oil begins and then spreads like cancer.

You seem pretty new at this, so I didn't dive into refinement to keep confusion at a low.

be safe, always work outside....always!

 

[SkyHighLer]

"lastly.. I found capitalbutane.com.. a USA made N BUTANE.. has anyone had good results or even heard of this stuff."

I have a case of N-Butane coming from Capital Butane, it will be tested for residue and the results posted here,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=275567

 

[AlterEgo860]

thanks a lot man.. I appreciate it midwesthighs.

and ya ive extremely new at bho.. but i spent some time working in a lab 10 years ago we worked with acetone, hexane, dimethylenechloride, methanol, and iso.. all lab grade..

i have 2 gallons of hexane ... but i heard bad things about hexane hash..

i don't mind dry sift.. but i like my dry sift to be heated slowly and pressed parchment paper style into a patty..

but ive made iso.. and acetone hash.. got bubble bags.. and a few normal screens..

im not really producing any hash or bho for selling purposes.. honestly.. its all for headsmoke.. so when i ran my little turkey baster yesterday.. and ended up with 3 grams ... i don't know how much bud i put in the thing. but i packed her tight and added layers of keif.. and it went good.. the purge went good.. i used a little too much heat on the purge so i lost a lil smell .. but honestly.. for a first run.. for it to turn out the way it did.. straight shatter.. but not as see threw as id like to see.. still burns great. smokes great smells great and tastes great.. but my next run will be better,,

i also took .5 gram of bho.. got it nice and heated and soft.. and then i mixed in 1 gram of keif.. to make a g and half of jelly hash.. and its nice the keif added back the lil flavor and smell i lost during the heat purge.

 

[AlterEgo860]

ya i don't care about the names.. i just was under the impression that shatter was clean.. wax or budder had butane or moisture in it . and sap was just decarbed shatter.

but then i keep seeing all this other BS online.. i just really need to know.. what temps i should keep my water at and if it matters if u go at a lower temp and for longer.. to keep as many terpenes as i can..

i found my tap comes out the faucet at 120.. so i was thinking of just using that instea of heating it up.. and then im trying to come up with a final purge technique .. so we shall see.

 

[theJointedOne]

one similarity= they all are made by dumping a petroleum based chemical over cannabis.

enjoy!

 

[AlterEgo860]

lol. anyways whats the deal with vacuum chamber.. is there a way to make a cheap one with l ike a mason jar? im only going to be purging the max 10 grams.

 

[mingmen]

sounds like shatter is the safest bet if you are purchasing?has the greatest chance of being purged and or dewaxed correctly?
I have seen sap that was more expensive and thought that maybe that was a finer product in general. Sounds like not

 

[r00st3rsauc3]

I haven't yet had a ton of experience, but have done 14 runs.

These are my current answers to (what I think are) your questions.
--Shatter is made with either straight BHO or BHO rinsed and winterized in ethanol. Do NOT stir. Do not disturb the liquid as it dries. With both of these, I've used a double boiler between 100-120. Low heat. DO NOT STIR.

--Budder is either of the above whipped one it is almost done drying. I use a small stainless steel screwdriver, like for computer screws.

I have been rinsing the contents of the tube in ethanol and have also achieved shatter out of this, though it is dark in color it makes a nice sound when dropped on a plate. from 10g of pineapple trainwreck made .4 budder and .1 shatter from blow through and .4 shatter from the rinse. This was from bottom bag shake.

I get budder and shatter out of the same pot. It crystallizes on the walls as I agitate the bottom.

It seems like the difference between making simple syrup and making caramel.

I have no info on any of the vac purge stuff though I am highly considering bestvaluevacuumchambers on ebay.

I have also been reading those 100s or posts from 2006-2009 and they ARE chock full of info. But I've also been wondering about what the most current recommended best practice is.

I'm really looking forward to trying fresh frozen ala jump117 absolute amber, but still have to wait a week or so...

 

[AlterEgo860]

how do u know when its done purging is the question lol.. I made 2 batches so far.. 1 I purged at too high a temp and the oil went from amber orange to a darker brown.. it still shatters when touched.. and is see through in a thin film.. but blocked up in a nice square its not as see threw as id like to see...

then the second batch I just ran a single baster with a tiny bit of butane.. threw the same material I used the first time.. I unpacked.. added keif.. stirred.. and packed.. yielded the same amount both times around 3 grams from the SS T Baster. lol the keif is helping my yield for sure.. ya im ordering a vac purge.. theres no reason not to..

 

[r00st3rsauc3]

how do u know when its done purging is the question lol..

yes.


I think that at normal pressure, it is impossible to completely purge at temps that do not start decarboxylization. From my limited experience, the lovely smell starts when water temp in a double boiler reaches about 150. I have purged at boiling, 212, until all bubbles are gone but at that point they are all oils.

The last shatter I only took the water temp to 120. There were like 10-15 bubbles visible. Smoked it. Nice clean and flavorful taste with no harshness.

ya im ordering a vac purge.. theres no reason not to..

agreed. next stop... ebay.


How are you making your kief?

 

[AlterEgo860]

2 screens.. a 149 micron silkscreen and a 210 micron .. 210 on top. 149 on bottom.. and I just have 210 about 2 inches about the 149.. then I use this little fan I took blades off and put 2 pens in a cross.. on it.. so it spins.. hitting the screen shaking the entire screen.. I let the shit bounce.. getting a nice clean product.. on to the 149.. then on the 149 I use a wooden spoon and I bounce it around letting the heads go threw usually..

comes to nice.. but I bought bubble bags.. and I cannot stand the no taste in bubble bags

 

[prune]

how do u know when its done purging is the question lol..

Yes, i too am very concerned with this issue, especially after seeing it shown on TV that holding in farts can cause spontaneous human combustion.

If holding in methane can cause you to burst into flames, i would expect that inhaling butane (which is much more explosive!) would probably make you explode. Maybe this is the root cause of all these house explosions - you know, holding in farts and then dabbing?

 

[AlterEgo860]

like especially without a degassing chamber and vacuum.. when do u know its done.. kuz if I put a tiny piece on a stainless steel pen thing I have.. and I burn it. it lights up on fire if I hold the flame to it.. but if I just go over it quickly.. it just melts and evaps.