Suggested Experiment: Results of Trimming Fan Leaves

[Payaso]

So I am proposing we have a contest to show growers for real the exact differences in plant growth and yield using either of these techniques: defoliating fan leaves vs. leaving all healthy fan leaves on the plant through harvest.

Entrants must document their plant growth weekly with side-by-side photographs of two identical plants grown from clone in the same conditions for each plant...can be indoors our outdoors.

One plant is defoliated, the other is not. Side by side comparison shots through the growth and flowering cycle are required to compete.

Each plant must be harvested at approximately the same time, and processed exactly as the other plant... but each one must be kept separate, and entire, until final weighing and photos are taken.

This contest will be judged by voting of the site members at the end of the contest...the point being who can run the best experiment with documentation.

Those are my suggested rules, and I'd like to hear your opinions before we get this rolling...

Just think of the education you'll be providing to generations of growers and the honor of being the one to prove, or disprove this theory by scientific methods.

Peace,
~Payaso

 

[papaduc]

Fantastic post Payaso. And long overdue. Kind of action I like to see. Separates the talkers from the doers and provides ICmag community with real meat to get their teeth into, and a real knowledge base - backed up with pictographic evidence - to source from.


However, can I suggest that entrants must use at least 2 clones on each side as a minimum? I'd say 4 if possible.

But I think 2 is the bare minimum

 

[darkhorse]

Who ever participates will need two exact same setup+conditions or as damn near as possible?

 

[papaduc]

They don't need two setups to begin with. Better if done under/around the same light in fact.

 

[papaduc]

Also, Payaso, can I ask if you can set out the parameters for the tests to encompass all of the issues/variables which came out of the first thread? In other words, get all the rules sorted before you actually begin the thread, to clarify exactly what it is we're trying to find out.

First suggestion would be: Documentation of the difference in growth rates/patterns, of plants left intact - with every leaf remaining - and those defoliated as suggested by proponents of the extreme defoliation technique. During both veg AND flowering phase

In other words, let's see the difference in growth when a plant is stripped bare during the vegging phase, and when it has all it's leaves to process light.

I think this is a major factor in the overall scheme of things because as we all know, the overall time frame when we're growing, factors into the whole yield per watt per month calculations.

 

[papaduc]

I would also suggest that there is a set time at which defoliation should take place.

In other words, there's no point stripping a plant bare at 4 weeks of veg.. then deducing that a plant which is defoliated can grow just as rapidly as one which isn't, or vice versa.

I think the people who follow the `high yield technique` thread will know that the plants are stripped early on in the growth phase. This is something I've always questioned - that a plant benefits from this and that no matter what results are garnered in flower phase they cannot justify an intrinsic link to defoliation in the veg period.

It was clear based on the advice from keeftreez (I think) that a plant which has not been prepared by defoliation during the veg phase, should not be defoliated during flower. I disagree with this and think it's a vital part of the side by side testing.

In other words, maybe some entrants into the competition could leave a plant fully intact, then defoliate heavily in flower, etc.

How this is incorporated into the competition can be discussed by other members. Maybe you can decide after everyone's opinion is shared.

 

[papaduc]

Oh, and last but not least, I think it's important to get clear what exactly defoliation "is"...

I mean, one person taking a fan leaf once a week, vs another stripping the plant bare all at once, are two completely different techniques and can't both be simply described as `defoliation`.

Maybe entrants could set out which technique they're going to employ. Maybe a set minimum quota of people who will do each thing; ie strip bare, defoliate gradually, not defoliate at all... etc.

 

[Arminius]

I'm in!
In two-three weeks, I will be resetting a room with 16 OG Headcheese.
I will not touch the 8 along the wall, and only prune the rest.
This room is 8' x 11', with 4 stacks of double 600s, with 4 plants per.
Dec. 15th is the latest the current run will go, and it may be a week earlier.

 

[Arminius]

Oh, and last but not least, I think it's important to get clear what exactly defoliation "is"...

I mean, one person taking a fan leaf once a week, vs another stripping the plant bare all at once, are two completely different techniques and can't both be simply described as `defoliation`.

Maybe entrants could set out which technique they're going to employ. Maybe a set minimum quota of people who will do each thing; ie strip bare, defoliate gradually, not defoliate at all... etc.

That is a given. Dramatically stripping a plant, exceeding 30% of its plant matter, will obviously sent it into shock. I never got the impression that people who "aggressively prune", would ever suggest that, doing it once was enough for me.
To me "defoliation" is considered to be removing just the sucker branches, and fans that block flower sites.

 

[Payaso]

Ok - I am glad there is some interest in this experiment/contest.

First, this is the suggestion thread where we talk about the rules... off-topic posts with opinions and previous experiments may get removed...

I will try to address all the points above here and now

To make the experiment easy enough for any decent grower to accomplish should be a given. Therefore there will be just two identical plants grown together either under the same light, or lights, or outdoors SIDE-BY-SIDE means that, not two separate setups.

The parameters of the experiment will be decided as we discuss them here...that way it's truly a contest/experiment that we will agree is conclusive.

Defoliation will be defined as removing the fan leaves from the plant during vegetative growth. At which exact time during the growth cycle we need to discuss, as it seems logical that there is variation needed amongst strains.

As far as extensively documenting every leaf variation and subtlety, that should be up to the entrant, and voters should give weight to their choice of winner as to their ability to do this in detail, vs. merely showing some plant pics along the way with the final product results.

I am fascinated with hearing the results in final product...side-by-side examples in pictures along with weight of the final crop.

Hope that helps!

 

[Arminius]

I appreciate the effort Payaso, but there is one glaring problem for me. Removing anything during the "vegetative phase" after initiating 12/12, is an absolute forbidden practice in my garden. If you are talking about documenting the results of removing fans in veg consistently, and routinely, and continuing until harvest is something I would not be willing to do a side by side.
Due to space constraints, I have to remove fans during veg, but I absolutely do not touch a single one for the first 40% of 12/12.
I would suggest that maybe there are 2-3 different test parameters that people can participate in.
For example:
Aggressive, Reactive, and Passive?
Aggressive would remove fans, and undesirable branches during veg, stretch, and flower.
Reactive would remove fans during veg to promote branching, only remove suckers during stretch, and finally only remove fans that are obstructing flower sites, tucking when possible.
Passive would remove nothing, (I know you guys have to prune SOMETHING at some point lol)...
If the original thread had been laid out like this, there likely wouldn't be the drama. Unfortunately, too many assumptions, and egos got involved...

 

[Crooked8]

Well i think the rules should be that it has to be two entire lights with the exact same strain. They need to be vegged the exact same amount of time. They need to have identical bulbs(brand new). They need to have their hoods at the exact same heights throughout the run this would need to be measured for accuracy light to light. None of the plants can get any real pest issue or that becomes a flawed experiment. The same nutrients need to be used. Both lights need to have identical air oscillation around the plants e.g. One 16 inch per light. You cant just stick two clones under a light and defoliate one of them along with other stuff going on under the light. One cant be farther away than others. Everything needs to be as identical as possible minus one lights defoliation. Putting this together will take serious attention to detail.

 

[Crooked8]

During veg any topping done needs to be done at the same time. All training in flower and veg needs to be virtually identical. Each lights plants need to have an equal amount of tops. There are SO many factors that need to be accounted for in order to get real value from this side by side. I think when someone does it the differences are going to be dramatic. Hope its a good prize because this is a lot of work. Not a set it and forget it side by side at all.

 

[DamnUglyDogE]

2 cents...

2 cents...

I would suggest that maybe there are 2-3 different test parameters that people can participate in.
For example:
Aggressive, Reactive, and Passive?
Aggressive would remove fans, and undesirable branches during veg, stretch, and flower.
Reactive would remove fans during veg to promote branching, only remove suckers during stretch, and finally only remove fans that are obstructing flower sites, tucking when possible.
Passive would remove nothing, (I know you guys have to prune SOMETHING at some point lol)...

This would be how we find (at the end of the day)
Which Tech works and to what degree...

I would suggest building on Arminius idea of 3 levels to chose from.
Each compaired against the other 2 seems like it would
make for a good show...

Though I believe we need better definitions of each level.

Aggressive
Fill in the blank

Reactive
Fill in the blank

Passive
Fill in the blank

For instance...

I like to pick very little during most of the VEG period.
2 weeks before flipping. I spend a week taking 50% of fans
and lowers... Giving a week to recoup before flipping.
After stretch-40-50% of flowering period.
Start taking fans until all fans with stems are gone.
Slowly over 2-3 weeks...
Leaving 2-3 weeks for swellege.

So...
Perhaps if everyone could figure out how to define all
opinions into 3 categories, That all can agree on...(Good luck-lol)

This could be something really epic...
Forward moving,Ya know!!!

​

I'll say this much,Payaso...
You got some big kahunas going after this topic,brother...

THATS!!!
How you get shit done... bro...
Im in with some F13 ladies if ya figure it out....


Have fun and ger er dun y'all....
Peace...

 

[Bassy59]

Lol there is sooo much insane bias set in the rules of this it's ridiculous.

Side by side? So you want to see if one plant grows more bud then another, while one SHADES THE FUCK out of the other?

Papaduc doesnt want any defoliating at certain periods...BIASED MUCH?

You want same time harvest? Yet defoliators 100% tell you, this does extend time. MORE BIAS.

And you want to call this side by side?
please.

 

[darkhorse]

Another point, would participants not need to use clones or IBL,s ?

 

[yortbogey]

me thinks Clone only from the same mother plant.... in same medium,/environment under same light.... keep it simple....

one deleafed and stressed....top to bottom
one left completely natural... no growth removal at all....

doesn't seem to hard to define these parameters....

 

[Bassy59]

During veg any topping done needs to be done at the same time. All training in flower and veg needs to be virtually identical. Each lights plants need to have an equal amount of tops. There are SO many factors that need to be accounted for in order to get real value from this side by side. I think when someone does it the differences are going to be dramatic. Hope its a good prize because this is a lot of work. Not a set it and forget it side by side at all.

You're already limiting the defoliated plants. Using k33ftr33z methods will produce more buds at the top of the canopy.

 

[Bassy59]

me thinks Clone only from the same mother plant.... in same medium,/environment under same light.... keep it simple....

one deleafed and stressed....top to bottom
one left completely natural... no growth removal at all....

doesn't seem to hard to define these parameters....

Bolded is exactly what is wrong with most everyone's side by side idea. To even post such mean you either have read nothing ever on the topic, or are camped way hard on the side of non defoliation and refuse to stay objective.

 

[Payaso]

Ok guys, don't get all excited... when everyone says what they want to do I will condense the ideas and propose another set of contest guidelines.

I know this is an exciting idea, I don't recall us having any type of side-by-side contest before... so we are going to be flexible. Several levels seems interesting...

I think the winner should be judged on the experiment they run, with points for detail of description and documentation of yields with the nicest yield NOT being the point.

I also believe that all contest entrants need to be polite and respectful towards each other. Entrants who disobey the TOU and use the competition to insult or belittle other members who are entering will be disqualified at the very least. All growers seem to operate at their own particular level of ability, and that's another contest