Jack's + CalNit in Coco Problems - Help!

[FlowerFarmer]

Hey all, this should likely go into the Coco forum, but I'm going to post here because the vertical section is more my home as well as there seem to be more here running Jacks 5-12-26 + CalNit.

Got some clones in coco after a brief hiatus and having the same old struggles. I told myself I was done with coco my last grow and here I am again stuck in another rut. I've got a lot going on so I'll use the next couple of posts to show you've what I've got happening.


I clone in rooters, and go into party cups under T5s. Typically everything looks flawless here and most of my problems arrive soon after hitting the HPS room.

Everything gets Jacks + CalNit start to finish EC of 1.2
I mix 130g of Jacks into 50-55 Gallons of RO. After that is dissolved I add 86g of CalNit.


The worst.
My sealed/co2 vertical room stuck in a major rut. Plants been limping along looking like this. They've blown up so I had no choice to turn to 12/12. Normally If I'm experiencing slight trouble the plants will snap out of when going to 12/12. Doesnt seem to be the case this time.

These plants have been put on blumats as of the 12/12 flip, but have been hand-watered daily prior. 1.2 EC to quite a bit of run-off each time. I thought for sure we'd see these ladies smile upon 12/12 flip and blumats, but they seem to be still angry with me.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Anything under T5 normally looks pretty good. I am however now experiencing issues there too after replacing all of my lamps to brand new. I was running on 3-4 lamps as the others had died. Replaced all 8 of them and now I'm getting some deficiency almost immediately? Calcium Def?

Granted these have been in solo cups for way to long...they are not allowed to dry out.. They are hit daily with 1.2EC jacks until run-off. They are going to be re-homed to a friend as soon as he gets re-setup which is why I havnt potted them into larger containers yet.

Mom's are staying healthy off to the side of the T5. I turn on a little LED light from time to time to keep them happy.

Clones in solo cups too long now showing Ca- (the orange marks on leaves?) as well as Mg- (the purple petioles and canoe/cupping of leaves?). These plants were literally beautiful 3 days ago before the lamp increase and change.

Am I merely just feeding too weak with the additional light? I normally strictly fed 1.2 EC Jacks + CalNit, but I have tried a few waterings w/ epsom before my CalNit at the rate of .8g / Gal. No change noticed in any of my gardens.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

The same juice is being fed my horizontal room. It got in a minor slump initially aftering seeing the HPS and some orange markings on the leaves, but seems to have bounced out of it going into flower. These were flipped a few days before my vertical room.

Getting some slight twist and a few orange markings near the leaf tips, but looking a lot better over here. I can't tell if this is worsening or if I'm in the clear. I think it still might be slowly showing up. Fed until run-off here, but looking to get the blumats rolling over the next day or so.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

What gives? Anyone have any advice?
Always seem to struggle with problem in coco. Normally when I switch into HPS things go downhill.

pH is coming out at 6.0 in Jacks + CalNit at 1.2EC. Seems like an uptake issue, but I'm stumped as to what to do. Looking at the pics I'd say they are over-watered, but that is certainly not the case. These are well rooted/established plants in straight coco.. fed to run-off daily. (vertical now on blumats).

Sealed Room stay 76-80F day, mid to high 60s night. Co2 PPM stays around 1000.


Let me know if there is any other helpful info I might be missing, but its pretty straight forward. I keep it fairly simple. Drench to run-off daily until I manage to get them on blumats.

Think it could be root aphids or some kind of fusarium wilt? I just don't see why keeping plants healthy in coco is so difficult for me. I loath for some healthy perky ladies..


Napa 8822 for me next run. Me and coco just don't seem to get along anymore.

 

[DHF]

Yeah Bro , coco`s a fickle bitch guaranteed but once dialed is hard ta beat for explosive growth.....but keeping the CEC in check with bigger plants like you have prolly requires more cal/mag......

The "taco`ing/leaf cupping" looks to be lack of adequate RH , and the leaf twist is ph based from what I went through with Purple Wreck few yrs back , but the brown spots don`t really look like classic cal/mag def , although it could be an early pic......

Have no experience with Jack`s Bro , but I can tell yas that some strains are cal/mag whores in coco , and silicablast @ 5ml per gal for stemwall strength and overall plant health will help yas with coco....

Napa 8822 sounds like a good inert medium even though it breaks down quick like perlite , but like D9 said it`s 7 bucks a bag so it`s disposable every run......

Up the cal/mag lil and see if the rust spots go away and check RH , but the leaf twist is def ph related and it only happened with me runnin PurpleWreck while every other room did fine......IOW.....

Shit`ll work itself out in the long run , and lastly....When yas go into the hps rooms is when all growth AND nutrient uptake will be accelerated so if RH isn`t optimal , transpiration and nutrient uptake will be off and cause ph to get sideways as well even if things look right overall......with coco....

Think I saw D9 say to up the EC during stretch with Jack`s and then level it back out to 1.2/600 ppm`s after end of stretch , but maybe he`ll chime in.......

Good luck Bro and don`t sweat it , You`re doin fine....Stayin on top of things is the difference between good growers and those that let shit slide and react afterwards......

Peace....Freds..........

 

[RetroGrow]

Sorry bro, but I'm calling BMs. Sure symptomatic of broad mites. You need to get a 100X scope, cut off a couple of the affected leaves, and look for eggs on the undersides. The rust & twisting are giveaways. You are in for a battle. Lucky you are not in flower yet. I'm betting that's what it is, but let us know after you scope. They are microscopic, so you must scope.

 

[Kcar]

What your RH like?

 

[DHF]

Sorry bro, but I'm calling BMs. Sure symptomatic of broad mites. You need to get a 100X scope, cut off a couple of the affected leaves, and look for eggs on the undersides. The rust & twisting are giveaways. You are in for a battle. Lucky you are not in flower yet. I'm betting that's what it is, but let us know after you scope. They are microscopic, so you must scope.

Wow....Hope it ain`t so but good lookin out retro......Never dealt with BM`s......

Peace....DHF..........

 

[otis33]

I've read people running co2 have to up the ec to 1.8.... if I'm not mistaken desert hydro was having a similar issue. I'm pretty sure d9 also runs higher ppms when enriching with co2

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Can broad mites be seen with a 30x loupe? It's all I have handy at the moment. Snagged a few leaves and don't see anything, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

I'll have to track down a 60x or something and get a better look.

Really hope I'm not battling some invisible army. The leaves in general particularly some of the uglier large fans up within the plants have a strong grit sand paper like feel to them.


80F & 60% RH in my vented space. I can feel the warmth and humidity when I hit the basement steps.

78-82F in my sealed/co2/vertical space with the most problems. RH is a hair over 50%.
(provided my hygro-thermeter is correct. It's just one of those large face analog ones with the coil/spring).


On a side note. So far as things get into the chilly months my house in general has been around 65F (just grow light heat). I'm just venting my 4k horizontal room into the other half of the basement. Problem I'm having is the windows (every room in the house) condensate like crazy and cause mold to grow on the wooden sills. I have to constantly stay wiping with bleach. I'm also getting a lot of condensation on my basement "rim joist" above the block foundation and my metal basement walk out door. I can literally see the concrete blocks sweating in the corner farthest from my rooms which seems to be the side of the house which takes the cold/wind directly. I've pulled the fiberglass insulation out of the stud spaces against the rim joist so that everything can hopefully dry out a bit.

Whats my best way to combat this? Another large dehumidifier? I've already got a $1600 dehumidifier for my sealed space. Suppose I need another just to handle the other 4k bloom and all of the pre-veg/clones. I don't want to ruin my house..and want the increased humidity for my veggers. All of the condensation seems to be manageable and I'm not necessarily worried about the look of my foggy windows because I live rurally, but I just don't know if it's anywhere else causing problems... like behind the walls of my other stories. Suppose I need to use some closed cell foam between my rim joist & floor joists instead of just batts shoved up in there.

Hate to waste the heat, and would love to get that exhaust fully to the outside, but really have no way of exiting 12-14" from the basement. It's all block foundation with no windows.

Any ideas?

 

[otis33]

let's hope it's not bms....I hate bugs!

 

[FlowerFarmer]

I've read people running co2 have to up the ec to 1.8.... if I'm not mistaken desert hydro was having a similar issue. I'm pretty sure d9 also runs higher ppms when enriching with co2

I've been wondering this myself, but have pretty strictly stuck to the 1.2 EC as it's commonly preached around here for Coco. I'm used to running around 1.8 - 2.0 EC in hydro, but trying to obey the coco "rules".

Atami coco comes with a pre-charge of CalNit I guess, but I initially thought maybe I was still experiencing cation issues from lack of a charge (4.0 EC as D9 suggests before planting). I did a quick drench of a stronger 2.0+ EC into a few of them immediately followed by a 1.2EC watering, but didn't seem to notice any difference.

That was a while ago at this point. CEC should have been definitely reached by now right? The plants look overall pretty green.

 

[RetroGrow]

Can broad mites be seen with a 30x loupe? It's all I have handy at the moment. Snagged a few leaves and don't see anything, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

I'll have to track down a 60x or something and get a better look.

Really hope I'm not battling some invisible army. The leaves in general particularly some of the uglier large fans up within the plants have a strong grit sand paper like feel to them.


80F & 60% RH in my vented space. I can feel the warmth and humidity when I hit the basement steps.

78-82F in my sealed/co2/vertical space with the most problems. RH is a hair over 50%.
(provided my hygro-thermeter is correct. It's just one of those large face analog ones with the coil/spring).


On a side note. So far as things get into the chilly months my house in general has been around 65F (just grow light heat). I'm just venting my 4k horizontal room into the other half of the basement. Problem I'm having is the windows (every room in the house) condensate like crazy and cause mold to grow on the wooden sills. I have to constantly stay wiping with bleach. I'm also getting a lot of condensation on my basement "rim joist" above the block foundation and my metal basement walk out door. I can literally see the concrete blocks sweating in the corner farthest from my rooms which seems to be the side of the house which takes the cold/wind directly. I've pulled the fiberglass insulation out of the stud spaces against the rim joist so that everything can hopefully dry out a bit.

Whats my best way to combat this? Another large dehumidifier? I've already got a $1600 dehumidifier for my sealed space. Suppose I need another just to handle the other 4k bloom and all of the pre-veg/clones. I don't want to ruin my house..and want the increased humidity for my veggers. All of the condensation seems to be manageable and I'm not necessarily worried about the look of my foggy windows because I live rurally, but I just don't know if it's anywhere else causing problems... like behind the walls of my other stories.

Hate to waste the heat, and would love to get that exhaust fully to the outside, but really have no way of exiting 12-14" from the basement. It's all block foundation with no windows.

Any ideas?

100X or more. Get most powerful scope you can. Cheap one in Radio Shack/Amazon.

 

[Storm Shadow]

Epsom Salt...

For your mix you should add 1tsp per 5 gallons

 

[Storm Shadow]

5-12-26 + Cal-Nitrate+ Epsom Salt Per 5 gallon
4tsp 2tsp 1tsp

That will you give you some bad ass ratios

 

[DamnUglyDogE]

That does look familiar...

If it is BM like my last loss crop...
You should see it progress fast in the tops/new growth
kind of withering away...


Finger crosses it something else...

Fight the good fight,bro..
Sending positive vibes your way in mass....

 

[Mister_D]

Honestly I think you just need to lower your ph a bit (twisted leaves look characteristic of ph being off), and probably raise EC to ~1.5. I normally feed coco at 1.2EC, but when my tap water dipped in down to .2 from it's normal .6-.8 range I had to bump feed to 1.5 EC to compensate. This is possibly your issue also, because you are using RO water. Cal def. is showing up as purple stems. Possibly the rust spots also, but those look more like a potassium def. to me. Mag def is showing in the light green leaves combined with the taco effect. Take a core sample, and check the ph of your coco via the slurry method. I bet you find it's out of range. I don't know enough about broad mites to say for sure, but I don't think that's your issue.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Ya think?

I just calibrated my Bluelab pH pen and took some readings. Pretty much right after I mix up a batch of Jacks+CalNit my pH of the barrel is around 5.9 - 6.0. I thought that was pretty perfect.

My blumat reservoir now feeding the vertical trees however was measuring closer to 6.3, maybe even 6.4 if I let it sit in there a while.
I was under the impression that coco buffered you out around 6.0 regardless. I'll try doing some drenches with (pH 5.3 or so??) and see if that helps any.


I have added some epsom before at .8g/ gal before adding my CalNit to give me a little boost in Mg. I've drenched the plants with this solution maybe 2-3 times, but didnt see any improvement. My blumat res might have also been topped with this solution with the little extra Mg, but normally I just run 1.2 EC Jacks+CalNit. The additional Epsom puts me at 1.3 EC.

I've also drenched a few times with 1.5 EC (Jacks+CalNit only), but only a few times.. never continuously and always return to my normal 1.2 EC. Again, never noticed any change or improvement.

- -

Also, A few days ago the "Chicago Electric" pump that I use for mixing my res and sending it to my other reservoirs started making some horrific noises. Looks like it finally kicked the bucket after many years.

It looks a little like the pump below, but slightly different. 100w , 200GPM. Its a beast that I'd turn on to keep my barrel churning while the Jacks dissolved. I'd then also use this to send the water elsewhere around my basement.

When I grabbed it out of the res it looked to almost have some slippery oil like substance coming out of it. I wonder if this has been continuously leaking out (petroleum?) and poisoning things? In any sense.. its now time for a new one. Anything I should look out for when purchasing another big pump. I want something powerful that can send 55 Gal across my basement to other reservoirs very quickly.

I'll get the normal slimy feel on my tubing from time to time at which I'll occasionally toss 29% H202 into my res at 3mL/Gal, but this particular case was something different. I have no idea if this substance just showed up as my pump has clearly took a crap, or if it is something that has been continuously contaminating my water and causing all of my problems.

It's still pumping strong, but sounds like a walrus being tortured so it'll be replaced tonight.

Think something like this would be sufficient?
http://www.harborfreight.com/16-horsepower-submersible-utility-pump-68422.html

 

[bobblehead]

End of page 2 and nobody has asked what the runoff pH and EC are? If you have plenty of runoff then let's get a measurement please.

I don't think its BM, looks like typical pH issues. The way to look for BM without a scope is the pistils. They will eat them. If you have pistils you don't have mites. If your pistils are brown and dead but still present, you don't have mites.

Idk how much time you want to spend washing 8822. "Grow rocks" are working well for me, as well as pro-mix.

When I had issues like this, I would only feed my plants cal/nit till they snapped back. We all know I had lots of issues... . That generally does the trick. Ca is the most important element in cell growth.

Good luck dialing your coco and keeping it that way...

 

[Mister_D]

Do a slurry test on the media. Nutes can raise or lower ph over time, and coco is some touchy shit when it comes to ph, nute ratio, and concentration. I notice anything over 6.2, and under 5.6 ph will cause lockout.

Slurry test is done by taking a small sample of media and mixing it 50/50 with RO or distilled water. Allow to sit for at least a 1/2 hour (This is to allow the salts/nutes in your media time to dissolve into the water so you get an accurate reading.), then strain, and test ph and EC. This will give you a reasonably accurate measure of what's actually going on in your media.

A pump leaking oil could certainly be the source of your issue also. I'd start with a slurry test first, if things are in line there oil may have been your culprit all along. If oil is your issue, doing a feeding with full strength EM-1 should consume it all fairly quickly. Though honestly I'd probably just toss the media and start fresh if that's the case.