Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[LargePrime]

Which 315W lamp?

Which 315W lamp?

Searching the Phillips site for "Mastercolor Med Wattage"
http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.co...up=Lamps#filterState=FG_LP_TYPE|Lamps=checked

gives 2 groups. Group one has one bulb, the Mastercolor CDM-T Elite Med Wattage Agro P
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601172201_na/928601172201_na_pss_aenaa.pdf
Family data
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4bt/3/350508/mastercolor_cdm-t_elite_med_watt_350508_ffs_aen.pdf

The other group has the MASTERColour CDM-TMW Elite family
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4bt/3/332474/mastercolor_cdm-t_elite_med_watt_332474_ffs_aen.pdf

In looking at these we can see a few MASTERColour CDM-TMW Elite 315W/930 1CT

One that caught my eye was the MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/930 T9 1CT
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601164602_na/928601164602_na_pss_aenaa.pdf

It seems this t9 is better than the Elite Agro in every way. It lasts longer, is more efficient, and throws more light doing it.

Is there some quality to the Elite Agro that I missed? Or is the T9 superior?

I also found a mastercolour_CDM-TMW series family.
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4bt/3/322853/mastercolour_cdm-t_elite_mw_322853_ffs_aen.pdf

There is a pair of MASTERColour CDM-TMW Elite 315W/930 1CT. Order numbers 928601164730 928601164731
I cant tell the difference. infact they point to the same leaflet.
http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601164630_eu/928601164630_eu_pss_aenaa.pdf which uses the ~4630 Order Code.

Are these superior?

Or would you recommend some other bulb i did not find.

P.S. sorry for the ugly links. I tried embedding but that did not seem to work, and I could find no help.

 

[The OrigF/clred]

it appears the t12 is dimmable while there's no notation to dim-ability for the t9

 

[LargePrime]

it appears the t12 is dimmable while there's no notation to dim-ability for the t9

Is dimability a big deal? Compared to overall light efficiency?
I know nothing; but it seems significant efficiency over the hours of use is a big selling point.

Your thoughts?

 

[rives]

The T9's are dimmable. I bought a case of the 930 T9's prior to the release of the Agro, and they work very well (CDM Elite MW 315/T9/930/U/E, #46677 218317). I've since picked up a T12 930 Agro, and it also works very well. I think to determine any difference in performance, you would have to do a side-by-side, and I haven't yet. I don't know how pertinent the various names/numbers are - Philips appears to have been making changes, at least on the names and documentation, on damn near a daily basis for awhile. The Agro is supposed to have a different mix of salts that enhances the red spectrum and diminishes the blue a bit. Other than that, I think that the various designations of 930 & 942 are basically the same lamp within the designated spectrum. The T9's are supposed to be used in an enclosed fixture while the double-jacket of the T12 allows it to be operated in the open. There is a difference in the sockets & bases (PGZ18 vs PGZX 18) to insure that the single-jacket lamp cannot be used in an open fixture.

 

[LargePrime]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]rives;
Thanks for helping this noob learn. So Ima bug you a bit for some details.
[/FONT]

The T9's are dimmable.

Can you give me something to search for or a link to explain why dimable is desireable?

Philips appears to have been making changes, at least on the names and documentation, on damn near a daily basis for awhile.

Thats what got me on this. Trying to get them straight.

The Agro is supposed to have a different mix of salts that enhances the red spectrum and diminishes the blue a bit.

I was looking for a color plot, but I cant find for the agro. The t9 has one on its last page.

Other than that, I think that the various designations of 930 & 942 are basically the same lamp within the designated spectrum.

That i dont understand either. The 930 is the 3K (3100) light temperature designation and 942 the 4200. But yet they have the same light plots? Perhaps my virgin eyes cant spot the difference?

The t9's supposedly last 50% longer and throw 15% more light doing it. All at the same wattage. So on the surface the t9 seems a better bulb, by quite a margin. Unless the spectrum difference is really that big a deal.

I read the t9's warnings about people being exposed to it if it blows. But I am not sure that matters that much to growers, right?

 

[TheCleanGame]

Is dimability a big deal? Compared to overall light efficiency?
I know nothing; but it seems significant efficiency over the hours of use is a big selling point.

Your thoughts?

Dimmable is a big deal for those without sufficient headroom.

Chasing the maximum smell/taste in your bud? Those are from turpenes and there are a lot of turpenes that get vaped off by infra-red pretty easily. Backing your lights off a bit at the end can help significantly.

Dimmable allows you to do that 'a bit' without moving the lights as much.

Keep it Clean!

 

[rives]

Can you give me something to search for or a link to explain why dimable is desireable?

I was looking for a color plot, but I cant find for the agro. The t9 has one on its last page.That i dont understand either. The 930 is the 3K (3100) light temperature designation and 942 the 4200. But yet they have the same light plots? Perhaps my virgin eyes cant spot the difference?

The t9's supposedly last 50% longer and throw 15% more light doing it.

I read the t9's warnings about people being exposed to it if it blows. But I am not sure that matters that much to growers, right?

Dimming may or may not be a feature that you want to use for a bunch of reasons - too much heat, lower wattage during veg, plants too small and adapting to new light source, etc. It is a feature built into the ballasts from prior to the introduction of the agricultural lamp and was directed at architectural usage.

This is the spd chart for the 930 -

And this is the spd chart for the Agro that came out of Gavita's testing -

I don't have a copy of the spd chart for the 942 in my albums, but it is substantially different than the 930. It is shifted a good bit towards the blue spectrum.

If you look at the publication dates of the lamp data, you'll see that there were sometimes a couple of releases made within a few weeks of each other. I don't know if some rough draft copies somehow were released with things like the wrong charts in them and lamp data, but there are some wildly differing spec sheets on the net. I think that anything stating a 50% difference in longevity would be erroneous unless you are looking at data for the GEL ballast which is supposed to give much longer life. I would believe a bit higher light output from the T9 simply because of the filtering affect of the second jacket, but probably not 15%

I think that the bomb-proofing aspect of the proper application of the T9 is very important. I get an uncomfortable sunburn on the backs of my hands/arms within a few minutes working under a T9 with a lens on the fixture. The lamp can continue to operate with the shell blown - it would fry your ass, kill your plants, and the incredibly hot shrapnel from the envelope could start a fire as well as tattoo you for life if you happened to be in the room when it blew. None of that or spending some quality time with the local fire department has much appeal to me.

 

[LargePrime]

Dimming...

Thanks for the dimming info. Also a big thanks to the other posters.

This is the spd chart...

What should I be looking for/at in these charts? Or if you could just give me a hint that I can Search on.

But are not these two nearly identical?

I think that anything stating a 50% difference in longevity would be erroneous unless you are looking at data for the GEL ballast which is supposed to give much longer life. I would believe a bit higher light output from the T9 simply because of the filtering affect of the second jacket, but probably not 15%

I am just quoting the sheets found on Philips that i linked above...
T12...T9....Delta
105...120...+14% Luminous Efficacy Lm/W
33K...38700.+17% Initial Lumens
12K...16K...+33% Life to 10% failures
8K....12K...+50% Lumen Maintenance 90% (89% for t9. favors T12)
20000.30000.+50% Avg. Hrs. Life

That's why it caught my eye....
Photometric data

I think that the bomb-proofing aspect of the proper application of the T9 is very important.

THAT is important info. Thanks so much for that.
Have you had any of the case you bought blow, or start a fire, in your fixtures?

P.S. is everyone else getting emails of replies?

 

[rives]

What should I be looking for/at in these charts? Or if you could just give me a hint that I can Search on.

But are not these two nearly identical?

I am just quoting the sheets found on Philips that i linked above...
T12...T9....Delta
105...120...+14% Luminous Efficacy Lm/W
33K...38700.+17% Initial Lumens
12K...16K...+33% Life to 10% failures
8K....12K...+50% Lumen Maintenance 90% (89% for t9. favors T12)
20000.30000.+50% Avg. Hrs. Life

That's why it caught my eye....

Have you had any of the case you bought blow, or start a fire, in your fixtures?

P.S. is everyone else getting emails of replies?

They are very different if you look closely. The big green spike on the 930 @ 540 is much smaller on the Agro, and there is a huge increase in the Agro's red @ 680.

Are the figures that you are looking at for the same spectrum lamps or different ones? I wouldn't be surprised at some substantial differences between the 930 & the 942, but would not expect the envelope difference to result in that much change. Warm white lamps/LEDs almost always put out less light than cool white within the same family. Also, you might want to check the publication dates on the data sheets to see that they are somewhat similar - as I mentioned before, there seems to have been some erroneous information released initially.

No, I've never had a catastrophic failure of the envelope. They are very rare, but do happen - you can find lots of pictures on here from other people that haven't been as fortunate. Apparently the CMH family of lamps operate at much higher internal pressures than other HID lamps and can fail in a more spectacular fashion as a result.

If I remember correctly, the email notification function was turned off a long time ago by the site admin's.

 

[LargePrime]

They are very different if you look closely.

Again, thanks so much. After you point it out it is easy to spot.

Are the figures that you are looking at for the same spectrum lamps or different ones?

Now that you pointed out the difference they are different.

I compared the Mastercolor CDM-T Elite 315W T12 CL Agro P here: http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601172201_na/928601172201_na_pss_aenaa.pdf dated May 13 2013 and is 3100K

To the MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/930 T9 1CT here: http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928601164602_na/928601164602_na_pss_aenaa.pdf dated May 17 2013

Both downloaded directly from Philips and found from a search for 315w as detailed in my post #5421. Data in my post #5428 was cut and pasted from those sources, and the math was artificially assisted, but feel free to double check my results.

So, assuming I got the right data and my math was not off by much, which would you think one should choose? More red and less durability of the agro? Or more light and durability with less red of the 930 t9. Or some other bulb?

You can find lots of pictures on here from other people that haven't been as fortunate.

So this thread has just had it's 6th birthday.

In your OPINION (unless you have a source for hard data, which would be awesome) are these incidences becoming more rare due to manufacturing improvements or some such thing? Or is it about the same or worse? The later part of the thread has focused on the newer 315W bulbs. Is it the same for all CMH bulbs, or is this a specific 315W warning?
Any notable accounts i should review? Just search criteria is fine, you dont have to link me.

Again thanks for allowing me to raid your brain and being so open with all your advice and knowledge.

If I remember correctly

I am finding a bunch of things I cant do as a noob and thought perhaps that was one. So if I delay in responding I am gonna use this as an excuse.

 

[Nader]

this was a couple days ago, day 19 flowering under bare 860w on a light mover. will take a pic in a few more days.. they are getting nice and bulky. wish i had an extra co2 tank to supplement this little tent

 

[sso]

So, is there a 600w cmh yet?

 

[rives]

So, assuming I got the right data and my math was not off by much, which would you think one should choose? More red and less durability of the agro? Or more light and durability with less red of the 930 t9. Or some other bulb?

In your OPINION (unless you have a source for hard data, which would be awesome) are these incidences becoming more rare due to manufacturing improvements or some such thing? Or is it about the same or worse? The later part of the thread has focused on the newer 315W bulbs. Is it the same for all CMH bulbs, or is this a specific 315W warning?
Any notable accounts i should review? Just search criteria is fine, you dont have to link me.

Interesting differences. All that I can think of to explain the lamp life difference is a) possibly the additional heat being trapped by the secondary jacket on the T12 works against it, long-term or b) since agricultural lamps are changed out way before they hit end-of-life, perhaps Philips wasn't overly concerned about what number got plugged in for the Agro. For our crops, it isn't unusual for people to swap lamps after 2-3 runs. This is serious overkill for these lamps as they still have 90% lumen maintenance at 8000 hours. If you ran 80 days of 12/12 on these lamps, changing them at 8000 hours would give you 8 runs. On the other hand, if you are lighting parking lots and have to bring in a cherry picker to relamp with, you want the longest-lived lamps you can install.

As I mentioned, I've used both. I'm sure that the Agro is superior for our use, but to what degree? I think that it comes down to the pricing - I paid about $9 each for my 930s on eBay before anybody was using them. The Agros were going for over $500 apiece at one point. No contest there on which one I'd use! At the same price, or nearly, I'd go for the Agro. I want to experiment a bit, but if I do see a perceptible difference, I will probably supplement the 930 with some 660nm LEDs.

All metal halide lamps are rated for either enclosed fixture or open usage. They are more worrisome than other HID lamps for a couple of reasons. One, they can continue to function with a broken envelope, and they emit dangerous levels of UV which is normally contained by the envelope. Without it, ugly shit happens to nearby living things. Two, they operate at very high internal pressures and can blow extremely hot parts all over hell. This applies to all of the metal halide family, not just the CMH or the 315w versions.

As for my opinion, I am a retired industrial electrician with 30+ years around HID lighting. I saw very few catastrophic failures of lamps, but those that I did see convinced me that I would never put one of them in my house without it being properly protected. I don't think that the failure rate has changed much with different manufacturing techniques. The lamps operate at phenomenal temperatures for very long periods - a defect in the manufacturing process could be impossible to detect initially, but after running at up to 700 psi and 3000 degrees C for a few thousand hours, can lead to an explosive failure.

From Wikipedia -
"Although such failure is associated with end of life, an arc tube can fail at any time even when new, because of unseen manufacturing faults such as microscopic cracks. However, this is quite rare. Manufacturers typically "season" new lamps to check for such defects before the lamps leave the manufacturer's premises.
Since a metal-halide lamp contains gases at a significant high pressure, failure of the arc tube is inevitably a violent event. Fragments of arc tube are launched, at high velocity, in all directions, striking the outer bulb of the lamp with enough force to cause it to break. If the fixture has no secondary containment (such as a lens, bowl or shield) then the extremely hot pieces of debris will fall down onto people and property below the light, likely resulting in serious injury, damage, and possibly causing a major building fire if flammable material is present.
The risk of a "nonpassive failure" (explosion) of an arc tube is very small. According to information gathered by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, there are approximately 40 million metal-halide systems in North America alone, and only a very few instances of nonpassive failures have occurred. Although it is impossible to predict or eliminate the risk of a metal-halide lamp exploding, there are several precautions that can reduce the risk:

• Using only well designed lamps from reputable manufacturers and avoiding lamps of unknown origin.
• Inspecting lamps before installing to check for any faults such as cracks in the tube or outer bulb.
• Replacing lamps before they reach their end of life (i.e. when they have been burning for the number of hours that the manufacturer has stated as the lamp's rated life).
• For continuously operating lamps, allowing a 15-minute shutdown for every seven days of continuous operation.
• Relamping fixtures as a group. Spot relamping is not recommended."

 

[habeeb]

So, is there a 600w cmh yet?

nope. there's dual 315 systems though, or hooking two bulbs in a system together. who wants to pay for 2 bulbs though.. not me

wonder now, can you dim down the big bulb?? anyone

 

[Bubbagineer]

Interesting differences. All that I can think of to explain the lamp life difference is a) possibly the additional heat being trapped by the secondary jacket on the T12 works against it, long-term or b) since agricultural lamps are changed out way before they hit end-of-life, perhaps Philips wasn't overly concerned about what number got plugged in for the Agro. For our crops, it isn't unusual for people to swap lamps after 2-3 runs. This is serious overkill for these lamps as they still have 90% lumen maintenance at 8000 hours. If you ran 80 days of 12/12 on these lamps, changing them at 8000 hours would give you 8 runs. On the other hand, if you are lighting parking lots and have to bring in a cherry picker to relamp with, you want the longest-lived lamps you can install.

As I mentioned, I've used both. I'm sure that the Agro is superior for our use, but to what degree? I think that it comes down to the pricing - I paid about $9 each for my 930s on eBay before anybody was using them. The Agros were going for over $500 apiece at one point. No contest there on which one I'd use! At the same price, or nearly, I'd go for the Agro. I want to experiment a bit, but if I do see a perceptible difference, I will probably supplement the 930 with some 660nm LEDs.

All metal halide lamps are rated for either enclosed fixture or open usage. They are more worrisome than other HID lamps for a couple of reasons. One, they can continue to function with a broken envelope, and they emit dangerous levels of UV which is normally contained by the envelope. Without it, ugly shit happens to nearby living things. Two, they operate at very high internal pressures and can blow extremely hot parts all over hell. This applies to all of the metal halide family, not just the CMH or the 315w versions.

As for my opinion, I am a retired industrial electrician with 30+ years around HID lighting. I saw very few catastrophic failures of lamps, but those that I did see convinced me that I would never put one of them in my house without it being properly protected. I don't think that the failure rate has changed much with different manufacturing techniques. The lamps operate at phenomenal temperatures for very long periods - a defect in the manufacturing process could be impossible to detect initially, but after running at up to 700 psi and 3000 degrees C for a few thousand hours, can lead to an explosive failure.

From Wikipedia -
"Although such failure is associated with end of life, an arc tube can fail at any time even when new, because of unseen manufacturing faults such as microscopic cracks. However, this is quite rare. Manufacturers typically "season" new lamps to check for such defects before the lamps leave the manufacturer's premises.
Since a metal-halide lamp contains gases at a significant high pressure, failure of the arc tube is inevitably a violent event. Fragments of arc tube are launched, at high velocity, in all directions, striking the outer bulb of the lamp with enough force to cause it to break. If the fixture has no secondary containment (such as a lens, bowl or shield) then the extremely hot pieces of debris will fall down onto people and property below the light, likely resulting in serious injury, damage, and possibly causing a major building fire if flammable material is present.
The risk of a "nonpassive failure" (explosion) of an arc tube is very small. According to information gathered by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, there are approximately 40 million metal-halide systems in North America alone, and only a very few instances of nonpassive failures have occurred. Although it is impossible to predict or eliminate the risk of a metal-halide lamp exploding, there are several precautions that can reduce the risk:

• Using only well designed lamps from reputable manufacturers and avoiding lamps of unknown origin.
• Inspecting lamps before installing to check for any faults such as cracks in the tube or outer bulb.
• Replacing lamps before they reach their end of life (i.e. when they have been burning for the number of hours that the manufacturer has stated as the lamp's rated life).
• For continuously operating lamps, allowing a 15-minute shutdown for every seven days of continuous operation.
• Relamping fixtures as a group. Spot relamping is not recommended."

Dude.... so I just bought 2 of these 315w elite Argo lights and now I learn they are a fire hazard.... I thought they were safe as the fixture is open to air and UL rated.....

 

[rives]

Dude.... so I just bought 2 of these 315w elite Argo lights and now I learn they are a fire hazard.... I thought they were safe as the fixture is open to air and UL rated.....

The Agro is fine to run in an open fixture - they are in a double envelope, in the T12 configuration. The lamp that is a problem to run in an open fixture is the T9 930 (or 942), which has a single envelope.

 

[Bubbagineer]

Thanks man. Sorry for the panic attack lol.

 

[greenwithenvy]

Honestly, if your grow was supposed to be a representation of what they are capable of, you didn't do a very good job. Yields were under .5g/w and the plants looked like hell. Just because those lights have a high PAR rating does not mean that the light is balanced in spectrum for the plants. The newer run you didn't finish either... so what are we supposed to think? Do a full grow (that looks nice) if you want to showcase what it can do.

If you look at the folks showing the 315w, the plants look ridiculous! Your shots just don't look like that man...

Your defiantly right about the plants looking like hell. Since then ive moved my flower room to a larger space. My respose to fonzzarili was just because he says there garbage doesn't make em garbage. My grow was not good and heat was still an issue. That is why I have moved to a bigger space. Im using 3 - 4x8 scrogs for 6 plants. Ill be adding 6 more spots after this harvest. I still like my 860s with my DNA's but now I have learned more information about DNA that Phillips has tested that ballast and Its not putting out what they claim. I may now go to all 315s. Im thinking 24 - 315s for 12 plants.

Here's a question for everyone. If you had a choice and could use 1000 watts however you wanted. what would you do? 1000w hps, 860cmd, 3 - 315s?

Here is a shot of the most recent grow. Ill try to get more pics up soon.

 

[rives]

I'd go for the 315s.

 

[habeeb]

The Agro is fine to run in an open fixture - they are in a double envelope, in the T12 configuration. The lamp that is a problem to run in an open fixture is the T9 930 (or 942), which has a single envelope.

and no bought system is going to have the socket to run them open air..

so only pay attention if building




good to see you rives.. shit i don't know what half of us would do without you..