Help Needed Troubleshooting Sickness

[mbkboy]

The title pretty much says it all . This is my first RDWC run, and I'm having trouble figuring out my problem. Quick insight:

Bottom Left: Critical Plus (2 weeks from seed)
Rest: Purple Wreck (4 weeks from seed)
Running an EcoPlus 4 (12 watt, 9L/min), and Ecoplus 2 (6 watt, 4.5L/min) to oxygenate approx. 200L
Was running ~150ppm of GH FloraNova until the Critical Seedling could handle more
1000W Digilux HPS
Air Range: 20-26 celcius
Water Range: 20-21 celcius
Humidity: 25-45%
Ph: stable around 5.8 (+\- 0.2) [until algae broke out]

Everything was growing well, no burning, deep green colour, until I had a bad run in with algae/cyanobacteria a week ago, right after I added some GH benefical bacteria. Did a thorough flush, and wipe down of all surfaces with H2o2, and added 7ml/10L of H2o2 (29%) to the new water for precautionary reasons, and did a H2o2 rinse of the roots. I left all nutes out of the water for 2 1/2 days to make sure algae didn't return. I then bumped the PPM back up to ~150ppm. No more signs of algae for the last week, but the plants have stopped growing all together. They started losing colour from the bottom, and the yellowing is working its way up the plant. Colour loss always originates at the tips, and works its way towards the stock. As seen, the tops are "clawing inwards" and colour loss is starting to happen on the tops now, while the bottom leaves are drying and dying. The roots are firm and look healthy (slight brownish tinge from nute stain?), but no slime or mucus on the roots.

My two theries are either theres still some form of the algae choking the roots (so I'm doing another H2o2 bath for the roots), but this seems unlikely with no mucus; or that the pumps I bought provide way too little O2 for the water and my guys are suffocating (though H2o2 should add O2 to the water and have helped correct this?) I'm at a loss at this point, as my experience has always been with soil. I seriously need some experienced insight into this!

 

[Snype]

I think it's too late to save them but good luck trying. Your air is way too low. If I had 200 L of solution I would have an air pump rated at 100 L/min. Lots of air and 0.5 PPM of Chlorine is important in RDWC. Your welcome to check out my RDWC threads in my signature for some good information.

 

[mbkboy]

Thanks Your thread is what got me onto the thought of it being my air supplies. I just thought the H2o2 would have shown some small signs of improvements. Either way, after going over your tutorial in great detail today, I purchased the EcoPlus Commercial Air 5 (80 watt, 88L/min) online, just hope it gets here on time .

Out of curiosity Snype, your rule of the pump being rated at half the water volume; has this been tested with an dissolved oxygen meter, or has your experience taught you this is the magical range? Much appreciated!

 

[Snype]

Thanks Your thread is what got me onto the thought of it being my air supplies. I just thought the H2o2 would have shown some small signs of improvements. Either way, after going over your tutorial in great detail today, I purchased the EcoPlus Commercial Air 5 (80 watt, 88L/min) online, just hope it gets here on time .

Out of curiosity Snype, your rule of the pump being rated at half the water volume; has this been tested with an dissolved oxygen meter, or has your experience taught you this is the magical range? Much appreciated!

I have a lab grade mettler toledo dissolved oxygen meter that I used for all my testing a couple of years back and that's how I formed my air rates.

The problem with your issues is that even if you get your new pump in time, I believe the problem is already too great to fix it with more air. That's the problem with RDWC. There's no room for error so when you get a problem, it's pretty much done. H2O2 would have to be added every day because it leaves pretty fast. That's why it's better to use Chlorine instead at the rate of at least 0.5 PPM but if your plants are real healthy I would even take it up to 1 PPM every 3-5 days because the chlorine leaves the solution as well. It is best to have a Chlorine meter if you really want to have stable results and it is also best to grow the plants root out in VEG on hanging E&F trays until the roots are more developed like this:

I notice a lag in plants that go straight from clone to RDWC so I have a VEG-A process first and it seems to create a better buffer for and minor problems that occur. Before I did all these new steps that I state, I would lose crops all of the time. It was like a coin flip. Now I don't lose any crops at all.

 

[mbkboy]

Thanks for taking the time to reply ! I definitely have a lot to learn from your posts/picking your brain. Once I get my feet under me, I was thinking of adding beneficial bacteria & enzymes to the mix. Whats your take on the use of bennies & enzymes? (If you use chlorine, am I mistaken to assume you don't use bennies as the chlorine kills them off as well as bad bacteria?)

 

[Snype]

Thanks for taking the time to reply ! I definitely have a lot to learn from your posts/picking your brain. Once I get my feet under me, I was thinking of adding beneficial bacteria & enzymes to the mix. Whats your take on the use of bennies & enzymes? (If you use chlorine, am I mistaken to assume you don't use bennies as the chlorine kills them off as well as bad bacteria?)

You're welcome. I enjoy helping growers figure things out. In a way it helps me stay on top of things over here as well. I don't really have anything to say about adding bennies and enzymes. I'm a dead rez kind of guy. Chlorine can't be used with that stuff to my knowledge. Once you have a few things figured out, RDWC is pretty easy. You just have to have all of your variables in order then it's smooth sailing.

 

[willyweed]

its not too late to save them,i would not give them any feed at all ,perhaps a bit of superthrive ,and h2o2 half mil a litre at 17.5 %,for about 3 days or until they start to look a bit better,i have had totally yellow plants and brought them back to life,but it will take some time! all the best willyweed

 

[Snype]

its not too late to save them,i would not give them any feed at all ,perhaps a bit of superthrive ,and h2o2 half mil a litre at 17.5 %,for about 3 days or until they start to look a bit better,i have had totally yellow plants and brought them back to life,but it will take some time! all the best willyweed

I'm not sure if you run RDWC but I will be very surprised if he is able to save those in RDWC. In other hydro it is possible but that's going to be tough. I'm interested to see what happens.

In RDWC, Stress = Failure

 

[RetroGrow]

And that's why I use Hempy buckets with coco. Hydro without the hassle.....simple and foolproof. Huge yields.....

 

[mbkboy]

Snype, it's always nice to come across people like yourself that are willing to share their knowledge and experience.

Have you ever tried runs with bennies/enzymes, or have you always been a KISS type? The only reason I'm exploring the use of them, is to do whatever I can to dial in increasing my yields. I'm hoping you can speak to the use of them with regards to increased yields?

On a side note, my commercial air pump is suppose to air Thursday ; so by Sunday I should have a better idea of whether I can save these poors guys.

 

[Snype]

If you want to increase your yields stop worrying about nutrients. That is the biggest misconception, it is a plant, a very hardy plant at that, you do not need to babysit weed the same way you do roses. Marijuana will feed, if you want better yields the most important factor is having a complete run with no issues, overfeeding, algae, root rot, too hot, too cold. If you can't nail a perfect environment for your grow start to finish then you aren't ready to test nutrients. Until you can grow from beginning to end with no environmental problems, you shouldn't be worrying about anything but a basic nutrient and balanced pH.

Yeah, so true!

 

[mbkboy]

I guess I am getting ahead of myself. I'm just going to run a KISS method and see how my growth and yeilds turn out. Snype, sorry for the randomness of these questions, trying to only ask questions I can't find a general consesus on.

What do you usually expect as a yeild per plant when you're doing RDWC? Im finding some people saying a low as a few ounces, and other people saying 1+lb (seems a bit ambitious to me).

My buddy (who has successfully grown for years), is the one that set me up with those low supplying o2 air pumps (so Im starting to second guess somethings hes said). He's very adiment that in his RDWC and other peoples, you should only use 1/3 - 1/2 of the recommended PPM's compared to other hydros, or else you'll stress the plants/burn them. During peak growth, hes around 600ppm. He's also said that during flowering, its best to lower the water and expose the roots to additional o2 (I believe hes running the same low o2 pumps I am). Both of these claims don't make sense to me and contradict everything I've been reading. Im hoping you can confirm my suspicions that he's incorrect on both, and is running a less than efficient grow. Thanks in advance for your time!

 

[Snype]

What do you usually expect as a yeild per plant when you're doing RDWC? Im finding some people saying a low as a few ounces, and other people saying 1+lb (seems a bit ambitious to me).

The yield per plant depends on how many plants you are going to run per light. The fewer plants you have per 1,000 watt light, the bigger you need to bush them out. When you have the right strain like me, you will yield 2 pounds or more per 1000 watt light. It is much easier to get 2 pounds per light with more plants because you really have to top your plants and grow them the right way, the fewer that you have. I don't see the point of running more than 6-9 plants per 1000 watt in RDWC. If you ran 9 plants in RDWC under 1000 watts, you would barely have to VEG to get 2 pounds with the right strain. I get 5-6 oz plants per 1,000 watts when I run only 6 plants per 1000 Watt light. When I run 4 plants in RDWC under 1000 watts, I get over 8 oz per plant but they require more VEG time. With 6 plants per light in RDWC, I only have to VEG 7 days in the Flowering room under 600's (600's for every 6 plants) and 9 days in the VEG room under 220 Watts (15 plants) to get 2 pounds or more per 1,000 watt HPS light. 1 pound per plant is not ambitious when you are only running 1-2 plants per 1000 watt light and giving them a good long VEG with lots of topping and training.

My buddy (who has successfully grown for years), is the one that set me up with those low supplying o2 air pumps (so Im starting to second guess somethings hes said). He's very adiment that in his RDWC and other peoples, you should only use 1/3 - 1/2 of the recommended PPM's compared to other hydros, or else you'll stress the plants/burn them. During peak growth, hes around 600ppm. He's also said that during flowering, its best to lower the water and expose the roots to additional o2 (I believe hes running the same low o2 pumps I am). Both of these claims don't make sense to me and contradict everything I've been reading. Im hoping you can confirm my suspicions that he's incorrect on both, and is running a less than efficient grow. Thanks in advance for your time!

It is not only in RDWC that you should run less nutrients. It is all forms of growing where you should use less nutrients. The bottles tell you to use more because they enjoy all the money that they make off you.

As far as lowering the water in your RDWC buckets, it happens every day by itself and then you are topping them off whenever you do. I don't let my solution reach the net pots themselves. The amount of PPM's that you will give your plants will depend on the plants that you have. Some will feed more than others will. With 1000 watt lights and CO2, I don't ever see anyone having to go over 1,000 TDS (500 scale) / 1,400 PPM (700 scale) and that is for 55" bushes in full development. The less light that you have and the smaller the plants, you may be much lower than these TDS / PPM ranges.

 

[mbkboy]

Awesome, I really appreciate the detail of the answers!

I was reading into your curing thread (which I look forward to reading further when completed), and liked your idea of sweating in paper bags. I used to use air tight containers in a fridge, and burped them multiple times a day. I used to use this technique for personal when grown in soil. It always helped give a smooth and tasty smoke. Do you have any experience with longer cures like this (took around a month start to finish)? Im curious at what point it becomes a waste of time, and unneccecary to prolong the curing process.

 

[Snype]

Awesome, I really appreciate the detail of the answers!

I was reading into your curing thread (which I look forward to reading further when completed), and liked your idea of sweating in paper bags. I used to use air tight containers in a fridge, and burped them multiple times a day. I used to use this technique for personal when grown in soil. It always helped give a smooth and tasty smoke. Do you have any experience with longer cures like this (took around a month start to finish)? Im curious at what point it becomes a waste of time, and unneccecary to prolong the curing process.

After the paper bag I go to big glass mason jars. I have mason jars that can fit more than a pound:

I have noticed with some strains that they don't like a long cure but I have also noticed that strains like Sour Diesel really benefit from a cure of about 3-6 months. It is hard to cure for a long time period like that for me because my product really never lasts that long because someone always wants some but I remember the first time I cured 10 oz of Sour Diesel in my second biggest jar and forgot about it for 6 months and when I opened that jar, I couldn't believe how much better it got with all that time. Never heard of anyone curing in the fridge before so I can't really speak on that but I cure in a dark place and try to stay around 60 degrees F if I can. I also like to cure in batches of at least a half pound as opposed to oz's. You will know from experience which strains can benefit more from longer cures. I have heard about growers like Sam Skunkman who cure in card board boxes closed in the basement for 3-6 months. I've never done that myself but I would like to give that a try this year.

 

[mbkboy]

That is the most delicious looking set of mason jars ever!

 

[Snype]

That is the most delicious looking set of mason jars ever!

LOL! The big one can fit 2 pounds if it's a dense variety! I love these jars!

 

[mbkboy]

Those are some of the most delicious looking mason jars !

 

[mbkboy]

haha, Sorry blazed one too large before bed and forgot I sent the earlier reply

 

[Snype]

haha, Sorry blazed one too large before bed and forgot I sent the earlier reply

LOL! Pretty blazed myself!