higher thc = higher potency?

[Sam_Skunkman]

As you can see Gert has been singing this same tune for many years, it is not really that he thinks the analysis tests are bogus anymore, it is that he thinks the labs doing the testing are bogus. Nothing can be done to disprove this as it is like trying to prove to a blind person what color an apple is. Gert knows that most labs use the same or similar protocols, they all use dry material, most use a bud manicured to the level it is consumed at, if it is bud.
If Gert wants to help he could suggest how to tell if the lab you use is giving real numbers. Or he could organize sending the same sample to 5 or 10 labs and see if you get the same results or close to it.
Random moaning about THC testing does not help anyone, if it is true lets fix, it if not then shut-up already...
-SamS

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=1377297&postcount=6

11-24-2007, 08:48 PM #6
Gert Lush


Join Date: Dec 2005


Look guys and dolls - this isn't the first time I've said this, and something tells me it won't be the last!

Percentages of THC mean absolutely DIDDLY SQUAT, unless you specify percentage of WHAT... and even then it can be pretty meaningless. (Smoke68 put it quite nicely )

The ONLY people who have something to gain from THC %ages are
1) Prohibitionists, who want to scare the hell out of gullible dumbasses with stories of "new" 1000x stronger pot.
2) Seed sellers who rely on hype to boost sales.

=====

For a THC percentage to mean something, it needs a context:
Is it, say, 27% of the whole plant? - obviously this figure can vary wildly...
Is it 27% of an "average" bud? - who's to say what an average bud is? Two different buds off the same plant can have wildly varying THC levels, based on growth conditions, proximity to light and several other factors... so, we have another meaningless measurement.
Is it 27% of the resin? Well this is the one measurement with some chance of credibitlity, although this too, can vary wildly. Plus, most people don't smoke the resin pure... which in any case is far more likely to give percentages of 35% to 65%. IOW, I could take some really crap bud, and say that it had 30% THC, and I wouldn't be telling a lie!

 

[GrassMan]

AOAC (Association of Official Analytical Chemists) has published methods for moisture determination in plant material and a desiccator is the final step in the process (cool down) but it is not the sole technique (i.e. just placing in a desiccator and waiting).
Standard procedures include vacuum oven drying at 95 to 100 C (AOAC 934.01), forced air oven drying at 103-104 C for 5 h (AOAC 935.29), drying at 135 C for 2 h (AOAC 930.15), and 105 C for 3 h (NFTA 2.2.2.5).

None of the procedures metioned are based on dessicator. Did you tried AOAC 930.15? Because I did and the sample wasn't in conditions to further analysis. All thricomes were melted and essecial oils and wax end up on the alumium plate. I personall use the same parameers as NFTA 2.2.2.5 but with IR moisture analyzer similar to this one
http://www.denverinstrument.com/denverusa/moisture-analyzers/IR60.php
It is not my preffered method but until I'll get a Karl Fisher titrator, this is my tool

I'd like to ask GrassMan, who also seems to be involved in hands-on testing, whether he thinks that 25% THC - by weight - is a reasonable figure for a bud (Reasonable enough that so many seed banks seem claim it - IOW an everyday occurrence, given the right strain).
Specifically,
1) what percentage of the resin would be be pure THC, and
2) what percentage of the bud (by weight) he'd expect to be pure resin.

25% THC by weight means that 25% of the sample is THC by weight. Nothing more, nothing less.
It is a reasonable figure for a bud, not for a whole plant (talking just about all the buds in a plant)
I have no experience on resin analysis so I cannot give an answer to the other questions.
Sam already gave you an answer and I have no reason to doubt about his affirmations.

Gert knows that most labs use the same or similar protocols, they all use dry material, most use a bud manicured to the level it is consumed at, if it is bud.

That's the main problem I have found. Which is their protocol? Is UN protocol?
http://www.unodc.org/documents/scientific/ST-NAR-40-Ebook.pdf

Because if it is this one, there is room for some variation. Drug sampling and sample preparation can make a considerable difference on analytical results.
http://www.unodc.org/documents/scientific/Drug_Sampling.pdf

UN recommend humidity contend of the sample between 8 and 13% which is humidity contend similar, if not identical, to user use. Not 0% humidity

Sample weight is 200mg of cannabis floss

So lets hypotezise.... one seedbank grows, let say 100 individuals of the samec ultivar and picks up the top of the 5 most resinous ones. Dry to hell the samples, analyse the 5 samples and chooses the highest result (in terms of higher thc%). Then he publishes that his cultivar is X% thc.
That's not for me a representative number of the average population. Is the maximum potential of the cultivar.

To give an average of the harvest, sampling should follow methods as Bayesian approach and sample preparation should be grind all te samples, homogenize and analize a deecen amont (200mg as UN recomend). In my opinion this should be the most accurate result when you want to know what are you consuming.

There are studies regarding the potency of diferent parts of the same plant. Lumir Hanus has made some and variation is huge aswell.

Hazecamp has published a study where same samples were sended to different labs and results differ.

So, in my opinion, analytical chemistry had, has and will help hugely on cannabis investigations but there is also demagogy marketing.

Peace

 

[Gert Lush]

As you can see Gert has been singing this same tune for many years,

If you call the asking of a repeatedly unanswered question a "tune", well, what the hell, so be it.

it is not really that he thinks the analysis tests are bogus anymore, it is that he thinks the labs doing the testing are bogus.

I've already stated what I think, I think the results are being misinterpreted or misunderstood (e.g. post#75, 12/9/12 3:33 PM). You seem to not have understood a word I said. Or for some reason want to put words in my mouth. Ho, hum. My apologies if I overestimated your bona fides.

If for you it is acceptable that a method which can vary by up to 100% in its results (your own words, not mine) is the standard in use, well that's interesting standards you've got there.

As for your irritation at my questions, even if they are insistent, well, sorry, but that's how debate works. I don't know if it happens much in your version of the cannabis universe, but I'm all for everyone asking as many question as they need answered. Over and over if necessary.

Thanks to everyone for any answers they have given.

 

[Green Supreme]

Biting the hand that feeds you, hmmmm. I believe that rarely works too many times. We see how that works out for you. Peace GS

 

[ayatayo]

wow very good thread....Gert, I always thought exactly like you about these 25% thc claiming....but when Sam_S explained that the samples were dried to almost zero, it becomes more realistic, because once dessicated to that degree, the plant (cellulose) material mass must be trumendusly reduced...plus Grassman confirmed the numbers and what they mean...anyway I'm whith you on the fact that a weed dessicated to that degree is certainly not representative of what we, average smokers/growers are interessted in...a weed dry to that point would just crumble in a powder at the slitest contact...could be good for the Volcano though....

 

[BigSteve]

I super dry all my weed so that I can volcano it properly.

<3

 

[kamyo]

if it were as simple as THC percentage or visible resin, then the difference (when smoked) between a 20% THC sample and a 10% THC sample is simply the size of the dose. We all know that this isn't the case. There's a lot more in-depth info of how this stuff works in this thread already, but that's how I always look at it. Let's say you take a decent pull with some pot that's been tested at 20% THC and a bigger (maybe 2x) hit of some 10% THC pot. The math says that they should affect you equally, but that obviously does not happen. Like other folks have said: terpenes, among other things play a large role as well.

 

[ThaiBliss]

Thai look for Ethan Russo's paper on the Entourage Effect of terpenes. Peace GS

Green Supreme,

Thanks for pointing me to this wonderful paper. It is a summary of other peoples work regarding terpenes in cannabis and other sources. It is filled with contradictory evidence about the effects of terpenes on THC.

In the beginning, it talks about how many terpenes are an antidote to the intoxicating effects of THC:
"Scientific evidence is presented for non-cannabinoid plant components as putative antidotes to intoxicating effects of THC that could increase its therapeutic index." This supports the postings of others in the water curing method thread that removes terpenes and enhances the effects of THC.

On the other hand, papers are cited that could make the case that some terpenes can enhance psychoactivity. For instance, limonene and pinene are shown to act as an anti depressant and stimulant, with increased serotonin and dopamine level in the brain. Like the Thai weed I love so much! It also lists mrycene (mango) as sedative. This is considered potent for some people, but that makes me not want to try the mango experiment. Screw that effect!

"myrcene is a prominent sedative terpenoid in cannabis, and combined with THC, may produce the ‘couch-lock’ phenomenon of certain chemotypes that is alternatively decried or appreciated by recreational cannabis consumers"

It also cites studies of many, many, therapeutic effects of terpenes. What stood out to me are the pain relieving effects often associated with CBD, but some terpenes are very powerful in this respect by themselves. Some studies suggest that terpenes are anti-inflammatory, and analgesic.

What is even more interesting is that THC alone is anti-inflammatory. "and has 20 times the anti-inflammatory power of aspirin and twice that of hydrocortisone." This supports my statement in my post above how I think we are making a mistake by breeding for CBD in the belief that this is the only component that relieves pain. I am a medical card holder for my knee pain, and this supports my preference for high THC and low CBD strains. I often thought that energetic strains at least got me off the couch despite my pain, but it could be that my swelling was also reduced and helped allow a desire for physical activity.

Here is an interesting quote about memory:
"Perhaps most compelling, however, is its activity as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor aiding memory (Perry et al., 2000), with an observed IC50 of 0.44 mM (Miyazawa and Yamafuji, 2005). This feature could counteract short-term memory deficits induced by THC intoxication (vide infra)." Whoops, I missed grabbing the sentence that identified which terpene they are writing about. Sorry.

Another interesting note: "CBD is the most common phytocannabinoid in fibre (hemp) plants, and second most prevalent in some drug chemotypes."

Citations regarding my notion that most growers are over fertilizing their plants. See my signature below. I suppose for strains I like, with limonene and pinene (Thai), and even perhaps for strains that others like, then the growing techniques that I promote are valid: "As observed for cannabinoids, terpenoid production increases with light exposure, but decreases with soil fertility (Langenheim, 1994), and this is supported by the glasshouse experience that demonstrates higher yields if plants experience relative nitrogen lack just prior to harvest (Potter, 2004), favouring floral over foliar growth." Again, see my signature, "Bright Light and Low Nutrients".

That's all for now. I apologize for the post not being very organized. I'm up at night because of insomnia, and need to get back to sleep. I guess it would be beneficial to have a sedative strain now.



All the Best,

ThaiBliss

 

[Rinse]

ThaiBliss, I have found a definite increase in resin production, including terpenes and potency, with "bright light low nutrients".
In fact I have never found a plant to be deficient in anything if grown in the ground in plain earth, even if fed nothing extra, although I usually dig a little compost in for a boost in veg.
Only in pots do I see any signs of nutrient deficiency.
I also like to let the soil get as dry as possible in the last weeks of flower.
I think it would be worth experimenting with soil that is low in NPK, but high in trace minerals, this could be the sweet spot, similar to the old equatorial sati's grown in volcanic soils?

 

[Carbon.Chains]

Hey,

This thread overall has been very informative and maid me remember, once more, how little I really know!

But I'd like to share what small revelant knowledge I have to some questions.

In fact I have never found a plant to be deficient in anything if grown in the ground in plain earth, even if fed nothing extra, although I usually dig a little compost in for a boost in veg.
Only in pots do I see any signs of nutrient deficiency.
I also like to let the soil get as dry as possible in the last weeks of flower.
I think it would be worth experimenting with soil that is low in NPK, but high in trace minerals, this could be the sweet spot, similar to the old equatorial sati's grown in volcanic soils?

Just wanted to point out that some soils in "plain earth" are a lot more fertile than regular potting soils, their contents vary wildly.
What is your logic behind drying the soil? Have you noticed any difference in the buds? My assumption would be that it'd be detrimental to the soil more than anything.

And if a plant were grown in a media low in macronutrients and high in micronutrients, wouldn't the lowest available nutrient limit the growth despite the increased availability of the other nutrients?
As per Liebig's law of the minimum.

Also would like to point out volcanic soils are high in K because of the high content of ashes

Hope I'm comprehensible, quite tired atm.

 

[headband 707]

Although soil is very important I don't think it's the soil that determines the subtle's of the cannabis. I think it's the strain itself ..stay frosty headband 707

Hey,

This thread overall has been very informative and maid me remember, once more, how little I really know!

But I'd like to share what small revelant knowledge I have to some questions.



Just wanted to point out that some soils in "plain earth" are a lot more fertile than regular potting soils, their contents vary wildly.
What is your logic behind drying the soil? Have you noticed any difference in the buds? My assumption would be that it'd be detrimental to the soil more than anything.

And if a plant were grown in a media low in macronutrients and high in micronutrients, wouldn't the lowest available nutrient limit the growth despite the increased availability of the other nutrients?
As per Liebig's law of the minimum.

Also would like to point out volcanic soils are high in K because of the high content of ashes

Hope I'm comprehensible, quite tired atm.

 

[Rinse]

Hey,

This thread overall has been very informative and maid me remember, once more, how little I really know!

But I'd like to share what small revelant knowledge I have to some questions.



Just wanted to point out that some soils in "plain earth" are a lot more fertile than regular potting soils, their contents vary wildly.
What is your logic behind drying the soil? Have you noticed any difference in the buds? My assumption would be that it'd be detrimental to the soil more than anything.

And if a plant were grown in a media low in macronutrients and high in micronutrients, wouldn't the lowest available nutrient limit the growth despite the increased availability of the other nutrients?
As per Liebig's law of the minimum.

Also would like to point out volcanic soils are high in K because of the high content of ashes

Hope I'm comprehensible, quite tired atm.

For pots I normally use the same plain earth mixed with garden center soil/compost and home made compost.

I haven't yet gone deep into the science of soil but I do know I get better results from feeding nothing from flower onwards,
smaller yeild of course, but better tasting buds.

To me the best pot is harvested from a plant that has mostly yellowed fan leaves and 95%+ rusty pistils, not 75% like the books say.

Bright light and dry soil towards end of flower always rewards me with extra resinous buds.

I only grow organic so don't really need to flush, instead I let the plant get plenty of water in the first couple weeks of flower, gradually drying to the end of flower, I grow mostly hashplants that are used to dry conditions anyway, Affies, Marocs etc.

Good call on volcanic soils being high in K, does anyone know a good supplier of volcanic soil? Would like to try it.

 

[Carbon.Chains]

Although soil is very important I don't think it's the soil that determines the subtle's of the cannabis. I think it's the strain itself ..stay frosty headband 707

Yes the soil, what the plant is fed, and it's environment along with its genetics does influence the subtleties its high and flavour.
This applies to any plant really, the "terreau" of wines for example.

But of course, which cultivar is grown is of importance too.

For pots I normally use the same plain earth mixed with garden center soil/compost and home made compost.

I haven't yet gone deep into the science of soil but I do know I get better results from feeding nothing from flower onwards,
smaller yeild of course, but better tasting buds.

To me the best pot is harvested from a plant that has mostly yellowed fan leaves and 95%+ rusty pistils, not 75% like the books say.

Bright light and dry soil towards end of flower always rewards me with extra resinous buds.

I only grow organic so don't really need to flush, instead I let the plant get plenty of water in the first couple weeks of flower, gradually drying to the end of flower, I grow mostly hashplants that are used to dry conditions anyway, Affies, Marocs etc.

Good call on volcanic soils being high in K, does anyone know a good supplier of volcanic soil? Would like to try it.

What do you feed the plants usually if I may ask? Or do you only water and consider that feeding them as it indirectly does?

I don't know a supplier of volcanic soil but if it is of any interest to you I do know a german supplier of volcanic ashes.
I can't PM as my post count is low so I hope it's okay to post sources outside of a dedicated thread:
http://www.vulkatec-onlineshop.de/Dachbegruenung/Tuff/530000087.html

It does make a certain amount of sense in my mind that an Afghani/similar would prefer a drier environment but I'd be afraid of hurting the microbial population of the soil by drying it too much.
Then again a high thc content isn't natural and it comes with the intervention of humans from what I read. And I have read too that stress can enhance cannabinoid/terpenoid production. So who knows.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

To me the best resin increaser is big plants, organic soil that does not have to much nitrogen at the end of flowering, I have never found no watering to be so helpful, try the same clone, the same size with and without watering and let me know what you think.
Think what soil grows the best tomatoes or organic vegetables. I find that increases resin and terpenes and besides THC it is massive terpenes that increase potency.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Cannabis is very different then wine, in that the best wines are not fertilized and are grown in what is very poor soil for most crops and not really watered, as well as pruning the vines to reduce yield and improve quality.
-SamS

Yes the soil, what the plant is fed, and it's environment along with its genetics does influence the subtleties its high and flavour.
This applies to any plant really, the "terreau" of wines for example.

But of course, which cultivar is grown is of importance too.




What do you feed the plants usually if I may ask? Or do you only water and consider that feeding them as it indirectly does?

I don't know a supplier of volcanic soil but if it is of any interest to you I do know a german supplier of volcanic ashes.
I can't PM as my post count is low so I hope it's okay to post sources outside of a dedicated thread:
http://www.vulkatec-onlineshop.de/Dachbegruenung/Tuff/530000087.html

It does make a certain amount of sense in my mind that an Afghani/similar would prefer a drier environment but I'd be afraid of hurting the microbial population of the soil by drying it too much.
Then again a high thc content isn't natural and it comes with the intervention of humans from what I read. And I have read too that stress can enhance cannabinoid/terpenoid production. So who knows.

 

[BushyOldGrower]

I think THC most important but I have always doubted testing. It does seem that some CBG and CBD potentiate the THC. CBG helps pain killing and makes it last longer while the CBD is very relaxing. The best combination of these factors makes differing types of medical marijuana but the individual must find what he or she prefers for whatever reason.

This is why testing just doesn't do justice to the determination of Quality.

Quality can be hard to define but you know it when you have it...

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sorry I meant to quote you not edit you I did not change your post.
Analysis can be done that will easily predict the potency and effects, but you need to test for any 80+ Cannabinoids as well as the 130+ terpenes found in Cannabis. That and you need to do the work so you know the effects of each Cannabinoid, how they modulate each other as well as the THC+terpene combos all 130.
The problem is not the analysis, it is the lack of knowledge of the testers, this will change...
-SamS

I think THC most important but I have always doubted testing. It does seem that some CBG and CBD potentiate the THC. CBG helps pain killing and makes it last longer while the CBD is very relaxing. The best combination of these factors makes differing types of medical marijuana but the individual must find what he or she prefers for whatever reason.

This is why testing just doesn't do justice to the determination of Quality.

Quality can be hard to define but you know it when you have it...

 

[guineapig]

Is that list of the 80+ cannabinoids and the 130+ terpenes in a journal somewhere?
I believe that information is known to certain researchers, but I have never seen a
complete listing available to the public.

Maybe this information is proprietary, or to protect patent or intellectual property?

kind regards from guineapig

 

[ThaiBliss]

Analysis can be done that will easily predict the potency and effects, but you need to test for any 80+ Cannabinoids as well as the 130+ terpenes found in Cannabis. That and you need to do the work so you know the effects of each Cannabinoid, how they modulate each other as well as the THC+terpene combos all 130.
The problem is not the analysis, it is the lack of knowledge of the testers, this will change...
-SamS

Wow! The possible combinations of 80 cannabinoids and 130 terpenes are probably in the millions. I'd have to dig out my old calculator and learn how to use it again to get the exact number, but I guarantee that no one in their lifetime could ever learn all the possible combinations of effects.

But... I volunteer!!


This is one of the reasons why smoking and growing is an art, a science, and so much damned fun!

ThaiBliss

 

[waveguide]

every pic i've ever seen of the strain "ice" is seriously over the top.

even though it's been around forever, hardly anyone seems to grow it or talk about it much.

something to think about