Too many S1's

[The iD]

in that example, one has already reversed 5 individual females. no reason not to take 5 clones from each individual female and produce fem ICs alongside the S2s. this would increase the lines from 5 to 25, and also help allow one to perform linkage analysis on the 5 parents. i do not disagree, just believe it does not go far enough. no need to go to s3 to determine homozygosity w/i a line's population if one can IC and BC and collect phenotypic data from the progeny to determine likely parental genotypic values. the end goal is the same; to determine which lines to combine to promote hybrid vigour while retaining the desired phenotypic traits. the only difference is in his example it takes 3 breeding seasons to determine and produce the desired line cross, while in mine i am popping and testing the desired line after the first season, although i do not know it until they are grown out and all the data collected and analyzed. stay frosty,

-iD

 

[floralheart]

Thanks for the conversation. learning a lot, as usual. (around here)

 

[StayBlazinDawg]

I still need to back and do some reading on breeding to get a grasp on the nuts and boltz and lingo. All the seeds I make I get to play with this winter and have a few friends pop and see what we get. The strains I'm trying to fem are cuts I collected over the last year or so Hashberry, DQ, ECSD, NL5xHaze, Blueberry HeadbandxRipped Bubba. I also hit most of those strains with The Purps pollen also to see if it gives more vigor and more desirable attributes, we can compare after those seeds are grown out as well. I have a few more males getting ready to drop pollen Urkle Bubblegum Bubba Chunk, Deadhead OGxFusion OG, BBHBRB that will keep me busy for a while I think. Going big outside so I can mess around with seeds in the grow area after she is cleaned out. Any help is appreciated fellow human bodies

 

[CrazyKoala]

if i'm looking for a clone in seed form then give me an S1 any day rather than a cross or bx.

VG

Why not go further and say a D0 or D1?

 

[CrazyKoala]

I'm new, kind of.

Let's take, Connoisseur Genetics Seeds Grandaddy Purple S1 for an example.

How many times can I use a product such as tiresia's mist on the plant before stress becomes an issue that carries through genetics or affects sexual stability in the next generation?

Would using TM on the Connoisseur GDP fems likely produce a next generation full of hermies, misfits and other unknowns?

Basically, how far can you push (how many generations) making beans from forced fems and reverses through products like TM?

Reverses of reverses of reverses, I was always told not to do it.

I'm just getting hip to preserving genetics the more it becomes legal. Never cared about quality or longevity before, as it was always so disposable. Now I can be more attached to the plants because it's state legal.

I'm preserving now with straight breeding practices, but want to see if I'm missing out on a better, faster way of saving genes. I want to refine the stuff I like and save a copy.

If you start with a strain that is heterozygotic for many traits, you WILL lose 'hybrid vigor' on selfed progeny.

But as to your question of future progeny having more and more problems, I want to say this nicely. It shows you have not read or understood Mendellian genetics because you're talking about changing the environment, you left out the selection part, and you're saying the successive generations will have new acquired traits. This is Lamarckism which is essentially incorrect and has been disproven unless you get into nascent sub-field of epigenetics and possible inheritance related to epigenetics.

To be precise, the concern with selfing is in doubling/pairing up a 'bad' gene to put it in simple terms. If that happens to be something related to intersex tendencies (hermie tendencies), then that will show up down the line.

So the 'correct' way to make 'feminized' seedstock is to first stress females in ways that might be expected in your typical growing program. Root constriction might be an idea. Letting plants get droopy before watering (drought) might be another stressor. Re-vegging might be another. Light leak another.

Then you would eliminate the plants that show staminate (male) flowers on these stress tests. Now you have a population of females that don't easily turn male flowers.

Now you CHEMICALLY force male flowers on female plants, and self. This increases the chances you're not passing on 'bad' 'hermie' genes.

It's more work than anyone cares for. The truth of the popularity of female seeds is that the Dutch breeders invested a lot of money into it. The lesser reason has to do with massive fields and it being easier to buy all-female seedstock rather than identifying and killing male plants post-veg.

The Dutch sell newly-outcrossed female-only seeds so that you have to go back to them to buy from them because reversing traditionally was not easy. Now that gardening-purpose STS or colloidal silver are readily available retail, I suspect the retail popularity of female seeds will drop.

Selfing still has great usefulness. But just know if you're starting with a hybrid or poly-hybrid, or for that matter any plant with desirable phenotype (loosely observable trait) which desirability has to do with a heterozygous (non-matching) pair of genes, then you may lose that desirable heterozygousity by selfing.

You also should look up heterosis.

Getting a plant to 'do' itself doesn't mean you get a clone seed. For example you got half your genes from your mum and half from your dad. If you then 'self' yourself, then it is like picking a random half set of your genes, picking another half set of your genes and pairing them up.

Now if you use colchicine or oryzalin (Not recommended), and obtain a double haploid plant, it would be like picking a random unpaired set of your genes and pairing every single gene with itself. Rather than 6-7 generations to achieve near homozygousity (homo = same), you achieve it in 1-2.

Note, with the gametes (sex genes) if you self a male with say ethephon, you should get XX or XY or YY, and there is little info on YY. With selfing a female you get females because XX can only contribute X.

________

Backcrossing is also something you should look at. The uses of it are multi-fold. It could be used to fix recessive traits in one of the parents. Compared to selfing, the benefit of outcrossing then back-crossing could be in maintaining the male half starting from a clone-only.

Some people attempt to outcross to change flowering characteristics of a clone-only (or the successive generations to be more precise), and they might backcross once or a few times to 'regain' some of the original plant's characteristics.

If you got all that, then there are other ways to maintain genetics. First and easiest is pollen. Then beyond that, cloning. Then beyond that micropropagation.

 

[CrazyKoala]

Also note that some people stress test then see staminate (male) flowers but continue breeding after they determined there was no viable pollen release. Well, if successive people working with your genetics don't know that, they may freak out and pull the plug when they see anthers late into flowering. This is not pure theory. Some chem lines, thai lines, etc. have this where people are screaming hermie but it turns out it's not too serious.

 

[CrazyKoala]

We all get sloppy, but just know just as there is a common usage of steroid and a much more precise chemical definition of steroid which doesn't necessarily have to do with athletic performance but can be in hair products, plants, etc., there is a loose lay use of hermaphrodite and intersex vs a precise definition. Same goes for vigor. Lay term means general growing strength, but you want to look up heterosis or the older term hybrid vigor to understand the precise meaning.

There is a lot of confusion out there because of loose lay usage and very precise scientific terms which don't overlap.

 

[frankenstein2]

As long as were on the subject of reversing plants. I understand that it's best to reverse a plant that has no hermie tendendcies at all, and to reverse plants that come from regular, not feminized seeds. Now what about auto's? I had really good luck this year outdoors with fem auto seeds. So instead of buying a bunch of beans again, I wanna make my own fem auto's this winter. I have the tiresia's mist and I wanna reverse a female so I can have my own fem auto's. Should a buy a couple packs of reg auto's and spray a confirmed female, and let her pollinate the rest of the girls. Or should I get a couple packs of fem auto's and do the same thing? I really wanna cross two different varieties too. Any thoughts/comments are welcome. This will be my first reversal.

 

[CrazyKoala]

If you have an exceptional plant that is an F1 hybrid (a cross of distinct inbred lines), what one MIGHT do, is outcross that exceptional plant, say plant A to varietal B (male), and separately you might cross plant A (a clone) to varietal C (male). Then you might run 100s of AB plants, 100s of AC plants, select, backcross to A. Then you would select again. If your selection criteria are different on these two branches, in very imprecise lay terms, you're 'emphasizing' different desirable qualities about the original plant A. At the same time you are 'fixing' traits and increasing homozygousity (paired up same genes).

More homozygous USUALLY means more inbreeding depression. So after a few backcrosses you would re-establish heterosis/vigor by crossing the best plant that came from the B-side to the best plant that came from the C-side. As long as there is enough genetic separation, you should see 'hybrid vigor' meaning the benefit of having mixed kids.

Doesn't mean 'mixing' is better than in-breeding or vice versa. It means there is a specific program you want to follow for optimal results. Like certain Ancient Greek Royalty, or Jewish groups or Japanese groups or the Egyptian or British royalty, inbreeding may have conferred certain advantages. And yet multiple problems can show up: 1. loss of heterosis, or 2. pairing of undesirable genes. Results might be a skin condition for Egyptian royalty, or a higher incidence of cancer or this or that disease.

So outcrossing may help here.

So why not outcross all the time? Well, because then it is easier to have genetic drift. You can't be sure your observations of a plant are correlated to underlying DNA, and so you may not be fixing/breeding desirable traits at all. A more assured way of breeding for particular traits is by inbreeding. For example, in a given population, picking the darkest purple plants. Or picking the plants with a particular leaf arrangement. I'm not saying successive outbreeding with less inbreeding cannot work. In fact, I believe some TGA strains are from polyhybrid to polyhybrid crosses.

In the end if you have many offspring to choose from on a cross, you can do with a lot less strategy and still achieve spectacular results because the numbers dictate you will get something special. Cross a random great strain to a different great strain, and regardless of whether they were more or less homozygotic or inbred, if you chose the best of 1000 offspring, I do venture to guess you will have a special plant, strategy be damned.

 

[CrazyKoala]

As long as were on the subject of reversing plants. I understand that it's best to reverse a plant that has no hermie tendendcies at all, and to reverse plants that come from regular, not feminized seeds. Now what about auto's? I had really good luck this year outdoors with fem auto seeds. So instead of buying a bunch of beans again, I wanna make my own fem auto's this winter. I have the tiresia's mist and I wanna reverse a female so I can have my own fem auto's. Should a buy a couple packs of reg auto's and spray a confirmed female, and let her pollinate the rest of the girls. Or should I get a couple packs of fem auto's and do the same thing? I really wanna cross two different varieties too. Any thoughts/comments are welcome. This will be my first reversal.

If you read about vigor, I think you have at least part of your answer. Don't memorize sayings of stoners. They may or may not be correct.

Reversing plants grown from selfed/feminized seedstock means you're probably going from S1 to S2. 2 issues that I repeat: Overlapping 'bad' genes, and loss of 'heterosis'.

Really guys, please look at a maize presentation on heterosis. One with graphics. You will understand why people go back and buy seed again, and how this can be avoided if you understand just a tiny bit of genetics. I have no degree in genetics I can tell you that.

 

[CrazyKoala]

Unless I'm missing something the auto vs. photoperiod is irrelevant to our discussion as to 'what you will lose' when you try to avoid going back to the seedbanks.

Information is power. I see now why year after year people keep going back to Barneys and Greenhouse.

 

[CrazyKoala]

And there is no need to donate money to TM unless you want to blow $30 on not being lazy! wire + 3 boxy batteries + water + a tiny bit of silver = all the TM you need. Just keep it in a dark container, and don't stain your clothes or hand, and don't ingest it unless you want to be a smurf!

 

[CrazyKoala]

Hope I saved you guys some money. If you look into what I wrote, it hopefully helped you.

 

[frankenstein2]

I read everything you wrote, but had a hard time understanding some of it. I already "wasted" my money on the tm. I don't care if my auto seeds I make are all the same, or if I find some super plant that out does the rest. All I want is to make a bunch of fem auto's so I can grow a few hundred outside. I can deal with mutants and lesser quality plants that come from fem s1's due to weird gene recombination. I just wanna know if my plan will work. I'm always up for trial and error. I also plan on having a few packs of "store" bought auto's just in case I have germ problems or what not. Plus I love being able to tell people what they are smoking came from a project that I made happen.

 

[StayBlazinDawg]

I drink silver .9999 everyday and don't look like papa smurf, but had a dream the old lady was smurfette and very sexy. I've definitely got a lot of reading to do lots to ponder.

 

[Aardwolf]

I have been growing home made seed for a long time now. If you have the corresponding male to breed to the female of interest, regardless this backross/ single cross/ top cross will garner 99.9% better representation of the female clone your trying to replicate than any amount of S1 than can be produced. The s1's by way of procreation/ propagation will segregate leaving you with little hope of what you were looking to accomplish, for meiosis to happen in this instance would be a miricle. Some people are propper stupid that you can't help them. This is how we make breeders seed to further resistance and environment issues. s1's are for muppets.

Saying otherwise without the numbers and documentation is an un investigated waste of your and our time. Learn the fundamentals before you try to talk the talk and for now walk the walk.

There is a reason that nobody to date has a clone in s1 form is because it's Impossible!

 

[Adze]

Tom Hill said this regarding reversed females:

"With zero doubt in my mind I can tell you that you will make overwhelmingly more genetic progress by using pollen donors of known phenotypic worth (reversed females) than by using pollen from the same number of individuals of unknown phenotypic worth (males) with regards to the matter at hand (drug type cannabis).

It is a question of efficiency as well as the overall likelihood success, as well as the height of that success imo. There's not a whole lot of traditional breeders re cannabis only traditional hacks, the more you learn about actual selection methods in plant breeding the more you will come to realize this. There are no known minuses that's the whole point. There are folks badmouthing these techniques that have been utilized to great benefit for several decades going on a half century or more. Ever eat a seedless watermelon or cuke n your salad? Of course you have, same exact tech. Proceed with your lunch, I promise you will not die lol. "

Take advice from people you trust.
Adze.

 

[foomar]

Cucumbers are relevant , this short pdf is worth reading.

The use of gynoecious lines in hybrid cucumber seed production has many important advantages.The most obvious is the absence of male or hermaphroditic flowers that require emasculation or flower removal.
Additionally, female lines are more productive and seed yield is higher.
Despite these advantages, there are problems that must be addressed.For example, how are the gynoecious inbred lines maintained if no pollen is produced?
Another question is how to use a gynoecious line as the male parent if it produces only female flowers?

 

[floralheart]

SO much good information here. Much karma needed. Just browsing while I wait for the weed store to open up. My stash has ran the frick out, as of last night.

 

[floralheart]

^^^ Testing is key. Seems like there are a lot of companies out there that get a hold of a clone only, self it, and ship the seeds out without running a bunch themselves. Its lame.

I guess it's that race to get that GSC or Cherry Pie or whatever to the global marketplace fastest, for the sake of being first and making a mint.

What was that line from Margin Call, be first, be smarter or cheat?

I guess it'd add a whole 4 months and 600 watts to their turnaround. At a minimum.

I'm with the why spend $100 to test defective products, camp? I just don't say much about it.