U know what really pisses me off

[JacFlasche]

All the seed banks and seed hunters that make such a big deal about tracking down the holy grail of landrace strains and then you look in their catalogue and they do not sell even one of them. Oh I know that Ace and Cannabiogen, and Mulberry sell a few landraces, but really where is the Punta RoJa? Cannabiogen, had one one on sale for like five seconds, and Greenhouse made a big production about finding the real red spot seeds, but where are they? Obviously they are keeping the finest landraces to themselves, because if they were available then everone could develop F1s and that is were the highest hybrid vigor is diplayed. Strains are mostly bull anyhow, just the same few sorry genomes being enlessly mixed, until for all the apparent diversity, everything ends up being the same. It's like wine, everytime that the experts are presented with a double blind test in which cheap wine is put in expensive bottles and vice versa, even among the world experts the cheap wine will win the blind taste test, if it is in a good bottle. That is the state of MJ today, all hype and very little real standouts, despite what the experts say. Good help the noobs that are lost in the forest of fantasy names which tell you nothing and only confuse the issue.

 

[saluki]

I am one of those noobs. How can they bank off these strains they are holding back?


The only useful insight I feel I have which I picked up from your post is the bandwagon. Shortly before leaving Canada it was PK, PK, PK. Purple kush and every crop worst than the other. Just got worse and worse. Everyone is always conforming trying to copy what the masses are doing. No originality. In the late 90s and early 2000s it was everyone pumpin out jack herer. Now its the purple kush fad.

No true pioneers left in the world.

 

[charlie garcia]

Hola

I thought it was opposite, few people in fact get and grow landraces. Retailers here in Spain dont want or are not interested in those as there is not market. If someone pays the bills its ok to work with landraces today. I dont know what any other ppl think about, you should ask one by one. There are Africans sativas in marker too, GN collections of Thais, Laos, Mazar, etc

About Cannabiogen, who told you Punto Rojo stock is finished? We got a letter lost (intercepted in some point) but we have got supplied once again and THIS SITE has stock , right here an am still working with
https://www.seedboutique.com/catalo...=1389&osCsid=58c15edcdd3ab4f959eba159646c7802 35euros

Mangobiche https://www.seedboutique.com/catalo...=1369&osCsid=58c15edcdd3ab4f959eba159646c7802 35euros

Pakistan CHitral Kush https://www.seedboutique.com/catalo...id=43&osCsid=58c15edcdd3ab4f959eba159646c7802

Jamaica Blue Mountain is been on stock and soon back again
Ghana is been on stock and soon back again
Mexico Jarilla are in stock 35euros
Guatemala Quetzalita maybe available soon, depends on smoke tests

Sponsorized collective UNDERGROUND SEEDS Col (USC) is working too and releasing different varieties and hybrids based on landraces

Guess for my side (Cannabiogen) this question is replied.

buen dia
kaiki

 

[JacFlasche]

Hey Suliki,

Well I can't say that I thought of my origninal post as being illuminating, more like just bitching on my part. I am so sick of not being able to get what I really want unless I make it or go get it myself. Not just in weed seeds but almost everything. You want to buy an ounce or so of nanodiamonds, you have to import them from China or take out a morgage to buy them here in the USA, you want a computer that is any good, you have to build it, there are only so many hours in a day. You want to buy some of the 3m coating that was used on the America's cup yachts, you can't buy it, you want an engine form liquidPiston, you can't buy one, you want a damn high milage ultra-lite reverse trike, you are either waiting for an Elio, which has all the credibility of production of the flying car, or you are anteing up over a hundred grand to VW to get a car that saves you a few bucks on gas. The thing that gets me is that all this stuff could and should be available for a modest price. I mean any fool could build a car that goes 250mph for two million dollars a piece, or one that gets good mileage for a few hundred thousand, anyone could do that, the genius is in producing a 200mpg car that costs less than 10k. And it could be done, at a profit. Just like some kid in the highlands of north Columbia could send some North American or European some real Punta Roja seeds, and it would cost like a few dollars. Or we could have the present situation, unavailable or sold for montebank prices by some prick pretending to be a hippy. Just bitching, but if there is some insight to be had here, perhaps it is that if you have a Columbian penpal you should educate them about landrace strains, and find the holy grail Punta Roja if it is still around, after the Dutch threat to homoginize all genetics. Even in these fools own video of their Columbian "expedition" (vacation) they finally find the real Punta Roja with the red dots on the seeds and what do they pay for them? They trade some of their hybrid Dutch seeds for them, so that is the end of that strain of real Punta Roja right there, the farmer will switch to a hybrid indica/sativa because of yield and hardiness, it will be lost, and the only one with that particular strain of Punta Roja is now the millionare Dutch businessman who doesn't sell it, but used it to produce F1s that he wins awards with and then sells the seeds for an F2 generation to the nieve dupes that we are. for incredible sums, for seed of which the offspring will not be as vigorous as the original F1 cross.

Alternately he could have been line breeding that landrace, and selling the pure landrace so that everyone could produce the F1 hybrid generation with the charactoristics that they most like. I kind of sympathize with someone new to cannabis that gets into it thourgh the hype that is spewing out of the business side of growing and marketing. There are thousands of really meaningless variations of a few varieties that could appear in a single strain in a single planting if other factors such as nutrients and environmantal factors and drying, curing, or post grow manufactoring techniques are used. A good 90% of what is claimed and said by those in the business aspect of weed is hype or at the very least puffery.

 

[JacFlasche]

Hi Charlie, and thanks for the link, I saw that there were two listings that Cannabiogen had for Punta Roja. The first one seemed to be a pure landrace, and also I only ever found it on their own web page. The problem here is that they do not accept credit cards or any easy form of payment like paypal. So they may have some, but I cannot buy it directly from them, wish I could. The form of punta roja that was for sale at other sites that were selling Cannabiogen seed was not the same as the one for sale at their own site, it was a mixture of several Columbian and I think also a Panamanian strains. Do you know if the seeds on the page that your email links to are the original single malt landrace or the one that was produced for "todays market"?

 

[kamyo]

You have to understand that companies like Ace and CBG do not want to offer something in their catalog unless they can 100% stand behind it. Limited releases are often where you can find that stuff that you're bitching about, but they're not in the business of "here's some f1's. Good luck and I hope you find something you like." Why other breeders do what they do? I don't know, man. But I would probably refrain from bringing up Ace or CBG when bitching about the availability of landrace genetics.

Also, the scenario can easily be that maybe they did find a legendary landrace and decided that it really wasn't up to par as far as growing conditions go. Thai landraces showing intersex traits or whatever the case may be.

Edit: and ordering through the breeder is entirely possible. It might not be as simple as PayPal or a credit card, but its worth it in the end.

 

[MJOFMJ420]

''YOU KNOW WHAT REALLY GRINDS MY GEARS'' (PETER GRIFFIN VOICE)

 

[Cannfucious]

That is the state of MJ today, all hype and very little real standouts, despite what the experts say. Good help the noobs that are lost in the forest of fantasy names which tell you nothing and only confuse the issue.

I think you are completely off base here, there are some amazing genetics available today (as well as many hard to find landraces) more so than any other time I can recall actually. How many strains have you actually grown? Referencing greenhouse seeds looking for seeds with red dots on them does not give you much credibility I am afraid. Just sayin

 

[charlie garcia]

Colombia Punto Rojo (2 punto rojos mixed from different colombian areas (seeds were brought from Sta Marta and from Colima)

Punta Rosa (Panama x Colombia Punto Rojo male)

To start breeding the and from landraces should take you some time, wish you have it and enjoy the adventure
best
kaiki

 

[JacFlasche]

Well my credibility has never really been up to snuff, especially regarding myself. I have only been growing weed since 66' which really means nothing since I could have been doing it wrong all along. On the other hand there is the little factor called the placebo effect, and it comes into play in the strangest ways and times. Such as when they run one of those double blind tests in which world expertsare asked to rate the wines they have tasted, which unknown to them have had the contents switched into different bottles. The cheap wines was put into expensive bottles and vise versa along with control bottles, and the test givers themselves did not know which was which. Guess what? Every time, and this has been done on more than one occassion, every time, the experts extolled the wine in the expensive bottles as the best -- everytime -- and evertime it was the cheap one. Look it up. Of course we have an objective aspect in the percentage of THC if known, and if true, and if it corresponds equally to all plants of that variety and all different parts of all plants (it doesn't) But at least it's something, sort of. Nonetheless I personally label each plant both when alive and as packaged, some are outstanding compared to others of their strain. The marijuanna experts seem to think that the way a particular herb burns or the color of the ash it leaves is a sure way to tell it's quality, the quality of the grow and the knowledge of the grower. It tells you none of these things, all it tells you is if if burns well for use in joints. However in order to get pot to burn well, you have to clear it at a point that is well ahead of it's need for nutez. With two clones were one is cleared for otimal taste and the other is fertilized for optimal vitality; gram per gram the noncleared plant will be more psycho-active, though it will burn funky and probably not be able to stay lit in a joint, and have a slightly harsher to somewhat harsher taste when burned. It's entirely a trade-off situation. Unless you vaporize. Then it doesn't matter that you fertilize right up until you harvest if necessary for highest psycho-activity, because you leave all that dross in the bud in your bowl and only vaporize the goodies. If you want cannabis that actually tastes good when smoked in a joint then you have to get into curing to get rid of that sour milk green taste that even the best dried nugz have as an aftertaste. Of course anything you do to cure the plant reduces its potency, even if it makes it taste better.

I really can't answer you question about what strains I have grown. For most of my growing life, there were only general terms like Hawaiian, or Jamacan, of couse even back in the sixties there was some hype and meaningless names, like wacky weed, which most of the time had adulterations on it but when it didn't it was sometimes positivily catastrophic in effect. Right now, I have a backyard full of Standardized Messiah, which is a stabalized form of Mutant Messiah, which is a X between Mother's Finest, and a Tuvan landrace procured from a Tuvan medicine man in the late nineties. This cross was linebreed for seven generations before it settled into one phenotype. I also have a few each of Blackberry Kush, Green Crack, Cherry Pie, Sour Diesel, and XXX keeping the Standardized Messiah company. I would like to add some Malawi and Punta Roja to my ongoing breeding program. I always grow from seed, but have done clones in the past. I always grow outside in the dirt all organic, but also have an indoor system for supplmental.
I have a liscense to grow, of course, and were I live you can buy a clone of almost any of the standard commercial strains for a buck or two. If you go to Creigslist you can pay as little as a dollar for a clone of something like plantinum/Girl Scout, which seems popular right now, all the way up to fifteen dollars at a dispensary for a clone of Blackberry Kush if you don't know anyone at all. Seeds run from free to eight dollars a piece at a dispensary, Greigslist usually about a dollar for a seed. And though I saw one ad for Panama Red seed the other day, I am actually looking for a very specific type of Punta Roja seed, or clone to cross into a few Standardized Messiah females. I would also really like to cross it to something like Aces Zamaldelica or CANNABIOGEN's destroyer. Unfortunately I only have the Tuvan in hybrid form at this point and if there is anyone with a pure landrace of a Tuvan drug plant or more importanly a Punta Roja of distinction I am very interested.

 

[charlie garcia]

There are different Punto Rojo or Roja, variations and so, some are very strong and nervious, some other instead were more mellow and contemplative, some red hairs some not, some in north others in south or central, each farmer may have kept his own seeds, some may be quick, others late. Related lines were mentioned in Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia or Brazil. Old mango rosa, old paraguayan dont seem to exist anymore. Also Central america, Mexico or Caribe are interesing areas for funny sativas

To talk about "the punto rojo" may be a wider concept today than before. Wish you find what you look for, this CBG release is not the strongest but one of most elegant and delicious high/stone and aromas.
best
kaiki

 

[JacFlasche]

No doubt, there are many things that are called Punta Roja, I always thought that it was simply a referrence to red points, like would be evident on dried buds as red hairs, I guess. It is difficult to determine just how much of the taste that I associate with Punta Roja is the reslult of specific genetics and how much of it was the result of the handling of the products as regards curings and packing and shipping, that it may have a long slow ferment after being packaged in a variety of manners may have important effects on the smoke, and even to a lesser extent to the smell of the bud. There was a parade of Columbians after they first appeared in my area about 69-70, but there was one that was so outstanding. I remember one specific offering of Punta Rosa from the mid seventies that was so unique in every way. The high was transcendental, and you could get as high as you wanted with neither ceiling or the least paranoia, it was clear yet at the same time it was very resonant of opium and had definate narcotic effects. It made smoke of ultimate smoothness, the kind of smoke that hangs heavy in a room for a long time. The kind of smoke that smelled like a nuggmeg spice, and tasted like pancakes and baking muffins. I would say it was the most unique smoke I have ever experienced and though the herb that I now produce is definately stronger on a toke per toke basis, the Punta Roja was an overall superior experience even though it would take a joint of Punta Roja to equal one or two tokes of Standerdized Messiah which is a extremely sativa dom brid, with a fine taste in herself, but still there is really no comparison. You are qute correct that Punta Roja has pretty much always represented a whole upper class of marijuanna in Columbia, but it is this one particular earthy mello spice, that is the herb I am after.

 

[JacFlasche]

I think I will try the one you recommend Charlie. Maybe that and some Malawi or some Golden Tiger. Who knows were "the taste" will show up really. . . .

 

[Siever]

Hi,
B.T.W., making f1's is not just crossing any landrace. You'll have to find the very best from 1 strain and then cross it with the very best of another.
In order to do so, you'll need perhaps a couple hundred plants.
Perhaps it's possible with less plants. It would be cool if anyone here could answer that.

Greetings,

Siever

 

[JacFlasche]

Hi,
B.T.W., making f1's is not just crossing any landrace. You'll have to find the very best from 1 strain and then cross it with the very best of another.
In order to do so, you'll need perhaps a couple hundred plants.
Perhaps it's possible with less plants. It would be cool if anyone here could answer that.

Greetings,

Siever

-- Actually Siever producing an F1 is exactly what you say it is not: crossing any two linebreed landrace strains that are of different subspecies, such as a sativa or indica, that is exactly what F1 means: the first generation of a hybrid, it has nothing to do with selecting the best plant, though I am sure everyone selects the best as they are able.

Take this as a fact from a fomer breeder of exotic cats who helped establish a few of the domestic/wild hybrid spotted breeds for pets.

 

[Cannfucious]

I believe he is talking best practices, and the "very best" of parents is all relative to your selection skills and the perceived traits they may or may NOT pass on to the progency.

 

[Raco]

Inbred Moño Rojo (n+5) started from seed (late in the season) guerrilla style ...yesterday

heyy Kaiki



sorry about the crappy pic LOL

 

[JacFlasche]

I believe he is talking best practices, and the "very best" of parents is all relative to your selection skills and the perceived traits they may or may NOT pass on to the progency.

Yes I was aware that what was meant was that this is how a DESIRABLE F1 was produced.

You bring up a good point about the selection for traits, as obviously in a Mendalian sense any recessive trait is capable of skipping one or more generations and then expressing when two recessives combine at another time. So at best when one of these strain hunters walks into a field of tens of thousands of plants and selects plants, they are only going by what is expressed in the current generation, which in any particular plant may itself be an expression of one or more resessive traits that may or may not reemerge further down the line, depending on the breeders practices.

As far as the need for a hundred or more plants to make an informed selection from a population, the situation is not as bad as it may seem, as we know from statistical sampling that a small sample has a probability of representing a population that is determined by the relative distribution of that population along a bell curve, and the size of the sample relative to the size of the population, that is why public opinion polls have a margin of error that is determined by the same factors.

 

[JacFlasche]

Nice. . . . I hope it ends up with the magic taste I remember. I love those thin leafed etherial sativas.

 

[satva]

The high was transcendental, and ........... had definite narcotic effects.

Had a friend who loved the 1970's Red Colombian. I like transcendental highs without the narcotic effects. I recall Highland Mexican stains with a transcendental effect - a clear state of mind, with heightened sensory awareness.