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Teaming with Nutrients by: Jeff Lowenfels - discussion
- Thread starter boobs
- Start date
I have not tried it.
Maybe not quite as sophisticated but I simply use Cootz sprouted barley seed deal to supply enzymes to both my soil and leaf. I honestly like it better than compost teas...maybe cause I hate making teas. But I have not fed a tea this yr and doing just fine.
So for me Cootz formula is a cup of barley seed sprouted in a 5 gallon bucket...let the tails grow out an inch or two and then mostly fill the bucket with water and let it sit 24-48 hours. Filter that into 55 gallons of water and use it as a spray or a drench. Watch your plants perk up like you have never seen
But yea...you hear the Micro 5000 is fantastic to.
Maybe not quite as sophisticated but I simply use Cootz sprouted barley seed deal to supply enzymes to both my soil and leaf. I honestly like it better than compost teas...maybe cause I hate making teas. But I have not fed a tea this yr and doing just fine.
So for me Cootz formula is a cup of barley seed sprouted in a 5 gallon bucket...let the tails grow out an inch or two and then mostly fill the bucket with water and let it sit 24-48 hours. Filter that into 55 gallons of water and use it as a spray or a drench. Watch your plants perk up like you have never seen
But yea...you hear the Micro 5000 is fantastic to.
I have the a bit of the Tainio lineup in my fridge now. Havent busted a seal on anything yet. Ive got a half gallon of pepzyme clear, Biogenesis, Micro 5000, and Spectrum Extra on hand. Enough to do a few acres, heh. Then Ive got some of Bionatural Blooming Blossom's nutritech, nutrifoliar, and Bioplin. I plan on doing a full documentation and possibly do a yard without any N at all just using the Azotobacter and see if it can be done. Not sure yet but Im leaning that way pretty hard as it seems if it can be done it would be a breakthrough for me. Imagine soil mixes with no N..? Wow, hard to do..
FE
FE
Steve says on page 132 that he believes when gardeners import organic matter they are bringing in more potassium than any of the other elements, comparatively.
here is a quote from the next page, "Carbohydrates and fiber are constructed from potassium, carbon and hydrogen. Plants get plenty of carbon from the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Hydrogen - no shortage on that, every drop of water in the soil contains hydrogen. So, if potassium is abundant, and there is sunlight and moisture, the plant makes an abundance of carbohydrates, sugars, fats and fiber. But to make proteins, enzymes and vitamins - the important stuff - plants need the other, often scarcer, elements: nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur, zinc, copper, iron, manganese, magnesium, etc. If these elements are not critically scarce, plants can still produce carbohydrates. When they aren't scarce, plants make valuable nutrition in balance with their carbohydrates. And when potassium is just a little bit scarce, plants make the highest concentration of nutrition, which is what we need to eat in order to be healthy."
he explains it in more detail and mentions Albrecht in the next paragraph, he then goes onto provide a chart with recommended levels based on TCEC.
but, I think his generally lower recommendation is for the average gardener, who he apparently thinks is someone, who is importing lots of "compost" which is probably woody-er compost.
I believe I will just set back and see what you come up with Father Earth.
On Solomon...what difference does compost make. If you take a soil test that K will show just like K from K2SO4...He is talking about a total lower than Albrecht recommended.
I am not understanding his reasoning at all. I totally agree if you use much good compost you probably have all of the K you need...but I am curious why he recommends less.
Tainio always pushes for more, at least during flower. I get that one given his devotion to a sap pH of 6.4. When you reach the flower stage the K is in the sap, transporting sugar...so you need to raise sap pH, K is the fastest way possible.
Anyways...maybe I need to read the book. I do love his forms for figuring how much of what to use.
Or maybe compost K does not show up on a soil test...that would actually explain it.
And maybe I need to head down to the pub and have one and shut the fuck up...yep.
On Solomon...what difference does compost make. If you take a soil test that K will show just like K from K2SO4...He is talking about a total lower than Albrecht recommended.
I am not understanding his reasoning at all. I totally agree if you use much good compost you probably have all of the K you need...but I am curious why he recommends less.
Tainio always pushes for more, at least during flower. I get that one given his devotion to a sap pH of 6.4. When you reach the flower stage the K is in the sap, transporting sugar...so you need to raise sap pH, K is the fastest way possible.
Anyways...maybe I need to read the book. I do love his forms for figuring how much of what to use.
Or maybe compost K does not show up on a soil test...that would actually explain it.
And maybe I need to head down to the pub and have one and shut the fuck up...yep.
Im still super skeptical it can be done with only using microbes to add ALL the needed N via leaf and roots. Maybe I need to start a thread and get a collective think tank on the parameters that should be set in order to truly test these microbes. ..
SpicySativa
Member
What's up fellow organic heads?
I just finished reading Teaming with Nutrients the other night, and I figured I'd share my thoughts...
First some general thoughts... Was it as eye-opening and mind-boggling as Teaming with Microbes? Probably not. Was it worth reading and worth every penny I spent on it? Absolutely, 100%. Having read the book jacket, I went into this knowing that it was a book written for people without much background in organic gardening. It's not a big, dense, textbook or a cutting edge university research paper. There's only so much knowledge you can cram into a book of that size without making it utterly unreadable.
The biggest take-away message for me was the importance of getting my soil tested in a laboratory (a serious DUH moment for a guy with a hard science background). Now that I'm remixing and recycling my soil each round, this is especially important. I know what I have added to my soil each remix, but I DON'T know what (and how much) my plants have taken out, or what exactly my soil microbes have cycled. This book has motivated me to ACTUALLY collect a sample of my soil and send it to a lab. That motivation alone is worth the $25 or whatever it was I spent on the book.
The second takeaway for me wasn't quite as clear; Ineed to up my understanding of the dynamics of phosphorus and other anions in soil. It'll require some further research. That's alright though, I wasn't expecting this book to have all the answers.
Overall, I'm happy with the book. It gave me a nice big-picture view of how plants use nutrients, and gave me the tools and vocabulary that I'll need to muddle through some of the more dense reading materials on the subject.
To those of you who may have been expecting more of a cut-and-dried "Add X ammount of X nutrient for X result", I think you actually got exactly what you were looking for, you just need to look at it a little differently. Armed with some lab results, you will have actual numbers for what's missing from your soil. Join that with the actual numbers for nutrient content in various organic fertilizers/amendments, massage with a little math, and you've got your answer.
Anyway, that's all I've got for now.
Cheers,
SpicySativa
I just finished reading Teaming with Nutrients the other night, and I figured I'd share my thoughts...
First some general thoughts... Was it as eye-opening and mind-boggling as Teaming with Microbes? Probably not. Was it worth reading and worth every penny I spent on it? Absolutely, 100%. Having read the book jacket, I went into this knowing that it was a book written for people without much background in organic gardening. It's not a big, dense, textbook or a cutting edge university research paper. There's only so much knowledge you can cram into a book of that size without making it utterly unreadable.
The biggest take-away message for me was the importance of getting my soil tested in a laboratory (a serious DUH moment for a guy with a hard science background). Now that I'm remixing and recycling my soil each round, this is especially important. I know what I have added to my soil each remix, but I DON'T know what (and how much) my plants have taken out, or what exactly my soil microbes have cycled. This book has motivated me to ACTUALLY collect a sample of my soil and send it to a lab. That motivation alone is worth the $25 or whatever it was I spent on the book.
The second takeaway for me wasn't quite as clear; Ineed to up my understanding of the dynamics of phosphorus and other anions in soil. It'll require some further research. That's alright though, I wasn't expecting this book to have all the answers.
Overall, I'm happy with the book. It gave me a nice big-picture view of how plants use nutrients, and gave me the tools and vocabulary that I'll need to muddle through some of the more dense reading materials on the subject.
To those of you who may have been expecting more of a cut-and-dried "Add X ammount of X nutrient for X result", I think you actually got exactly what you were looking for, you just need to look at it a little differently. Armed with some lab results, you will have actual numbers for what's missing from your soil. Join that with the actual numbers for nutrient content in various organic fertilizers/amendments, massage with a little math, and you've got your answer.
Anyway, that's all I've got for now.
Cheers,
SpicySativa
C
Carlos Danger
That book's topic is the biggest gap here, in regards to knowledge. We've the basics of compost making and soil building here, but there has been a lack of chemical understanding of plants. I'm glad this book arrived.
R & D formula
R & D formula
Creating the best soil base with the highest CEC and microbe/fungi nurturing capacity (MFNC) x Using numerous Organic amendment list(s) collected from the internet x Aiming for Albrecht ratios x lab testing = ...
R & D formula
Creating the best soil base with the highest CEC and microbe/fungi nurturing capacity (MFNC) x Using numerous Organic amendment list(s) collected from the internet x Aiming for Albrecht ratios x lab testing = ...
C
Carlos Danger
Sounds like a balanced soil approach that should lead to balanced healthy soil. I think the Albrecht ratios and the lab testing are really important if you're attempting *big* plants. Easier to get things off balance when you've primed the soil to its maximum.
StayBlazinDawg
Member
I have been collecting amendable plants to start combining them to some new compost and the stuff I got rolling now. I'm going to start with a organic certified super humus for a base them combine nutrient accumulating plants for what ever style I want to grow with. It takes a lot of work and time just finding everything you need to get admending but that is growing.
C
Carlos Danger
SBD - what humus source are you using? Most of the humic products I've seen have been for supplemental use and not in anything like building a compost.
StayBlazinDawg
Member
The name throws people off it is from Casella Organics, I stumbled on to it looking into local organic sources. It is working lots better then the coir bitch mix I had going and it grows mycelium like a boss. It is made from broken down organic matter, wood chips, rocks probably other stuff. Google casella organics should be right their.
SpicySativa
Member
Got a worm bin or two going? Now that mine are up and cranking, I don't think I'll be paying for any more humus. Red wigglers are food scrap eating MACHINES. It still amazes me how fast they turn my food waste into pure black, crumbly goodness.
C
Carlos Danger
I think we're dragging things off the topic of book discussion. In the interest of keeping information consolidated for ease of access perhaps we should be conversing about these issues in the community thread.
SpicySativa
Member
Good old tangents...
Jeff (if you're still out there)- Can you elaborate on what kind of lab tests we might want to run on an organic soilless mix? Or what results we might shoot for from this test? My mix is roughly 1/3 Alaska Peat, 1/3 perlite+pumice, 1/3 worm castings (approx half home made, half store bought). To that I've added a full gamet of organics (alfalfa, fish bone, various guanos at various times, etc, etc). It's been reammended and reused several times now, and SEEMS to be improving each round. I just want to make sure I'm not over/under doing it with each reammend.
Thanks again for all te hard work you put into these books. They have been priceless.
Cheers,
-Spicy
Jeff (if you're still out there)- Can you elaborate on what kind of lab tests we might want to run on an organic soilless mix? Or what results we might shoot for from this test? My mix is roughly 1/3 Alaska Peat, 1/3 perlite+pumice, 1/3 worm castings (approx half home made, half store bought). To that I've added a full gamet of organics (alfalfa, fish bone, various guanos at various times, etc, etc). It's been reammended and reused several times now, and SEEMS to be improving each round. I just want to make sure I'm not over/under doing it with each reammend.
Thanks again for all te hard work you put into these books. They have been priceless.
Cheers,
-Spicy
C
CT Guy
If you do a lab test with Logan Labs and send the result to these guys (www.kisorganics.com), they will send you back recommended rates of application and can help source anything that you may have trouble finding locally in small quantities (eg. zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, etc...). It's based on the latest book by Steve Solomon, "The Intelligent Gardener"
C
Carlos Danger
Those kis guys know what's up. Must be one cool happenin cat taking care of business over there.
Does anyone know what ENR really is and can you explain it to me...Jeff?
I had a soil test from one of the Albrecht consultants. Humus content 34.4 and an ENR of 148. Solomon talks about maybe 20 lbs/acre N per % organic matter...mine did not come anywhere close to that. Why did I need N at all with that much humus...but I did, about 1/2 lb per yard and that only took me to a soil EC (ergs if you prefer) of 0.5.
I get that it is the N stored in the humus content of your soil that can (maybe) be released during the grow season. I just don't get how it is calculated...is voodoo involved? Cause I would be down with that
I had a soil test from one of the Albrecht consultants. Humus content 34.4 and an ENR of 148. Solomon talks about maybe 20 lbs/acre N per % organic matter...mine did not come anywhere close to that. Why did I need N at all with that much humus...but I did, about 1/2 lb per yard and that only took me to a soil EC (ergs if you prefer) of 0.5.
I get that it is the N stored in the humus content of your soil that can (maybe) be released during the grow season. I just don't get how it is calculated...is voodoo involved? Cause I would be down with that
Millyjoe, N can't be reliably tested via the usual test that soil labs do. It takes a special test.
I read an article in Acres mag a couple of months ago where Hugh Lovel talks about the different soil test and how they differ.
Unfortunate I can not find the article right now and do not remember of the top of my head. I am up early before work and don't have the time to search right now but after work I will get back to you on they types of soil tests and what they explain.
I wouldn't want to put don't the wrong info, but will get back to you if someone else doesn't first.
Timbuktu
I read an article in Acres mag a couple of months ago where Hugh Lovel talks about the different soil test and how they differ.
Unfortunate I can not find the article right now and do not remember of the top of my head. I am up early before work and don't have the time to search right now but after work I will get back to you on they types of soil tests and what they explain.
I wouldn't want to put don't the wrong info, but will get back to you if someone else doesn't first.
Timbuktu
