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eggshells for calcium? and more???
- Thread starter al-k-mist
- Start date
Where does the phosphorus come from? Not being a chemistry expert, I am not challenging your answer, but I just don't see any source of P in there. Calcium carbonate (calcium, carbon, and oxygen) plus acetic acid (all carbon and oxygen)... somehow produces something with phosphorus?
I still don't see where the Phosphorus is coming from unless it's trace amounts in the eggshells. Haven't studied chemistry in 30-odd years, but elements don't just appear out of nowhere, right? So if we are combining calcium, carbon, and oxygen with more carbon and more oxygen, the P is coming from... where exactly?
Oregonism
Active member
floral - I believe it is because of hydroxyapatite, which is a calcium phosphate mineral and makes up 70% of bone structure. Egg = soft bone.
I have some homebrew solution and I use it around pre-flower thru midflower, 1 TBSP/Gallon once a week and don't experience end rot, especially in the vegetable garden.
Thanks. Interesting. The articles I have found on hydroxyapatite and eggshells discuss a complicated process of getting hydroxyapatite from eggshells by cooking it at 900 degrees C (hotter than my oven LOL) and processing it with phosphoric acid. But you're saying there's already some in there?
O
OKD
Just cooked some eggshells in the skillet and was wondering where the phosphorous or phosphate comes in...
Well from personal experience in the matter, eggs shells are a VERY hard substance. They rate a 7 on the hardness scale...which is a variable simply because the diet / health of the laying hen has a direct effect on shell thickness and hardness, however, 7 is a generally accepted number. Which is quite hard, indeed.
Egg shell as a form of calcium and pH adjustment ONLY works when the shells are ground up VERY fine...ie to a dust. At this point, shells are not only a direct 1:1 substitute for traditional liming methods, but egg shell is effective in soils 3x longer than your standard lime application.
University studies show that liming is effective for 18 months while finely ground egg shell lasts for 54 months. IF the shells ARE NOT GROUND, the tests concluded there was NO measurable effect on soil chemistry / health, ie a waste of time...
Another thing that MUST be considered, is that eggs contain a protein membrane which by all rights SHOULD be be removed. This membrane can cause salmonella and other such diseases. Anyone taking the time to use eggshells, SHOULD take the time to remove the membrane from the shell...and trust me, this is NOT an easy task and requires a bit of patience...
I've been playing with egg shells over the past three years now in various experiments - and I've found high temperature steam is a perfect way to not only sanitize but also loosen the membrane. At which point, they can be mildly crushed and boiled - which when agitated during boil, helps to separate the membrane completely.
This is a MUST - you do not want to risk pathogens / disease in the process of recycling waste. I'm very surprised this issue has not been brought up yet...
dank.Frank
Egg shell as a form of calcium and pH adjustment ONLY works when the shells are ground up VERY fine...ie to a dust. At this point, shells are not only a direct 1:1 substitute for traditional liming methods, but egg shell is effective in soils 3x longer than your standard lime application.
University studies show that liming is effective for 18 months while finely ground egg shell lasts for 54 months. IF the shells ARE NOT GROUND, the tests concluded there was NO measurable effect on soil chemistry / health, ie a waste of time...
Another thing that MUST be considered, is that eggs contain a protein membrane which by all rights SHOULD be be removed. This membrane can cause salmonella and other such diseases. Anyone taking the time to use eggshells, SHOULD take the time to remove the membrane from the shell...and trust me, this is NOT an easy task and requires a bit of patience...
I've been playing with egg shells over the past three years now in various experiments - and I've found high temperature steam is a perfect way to not only sanitize but also loosen the membrane. At which point, they can be mildly crushed and boiled - which when agitated during boil, helps to separate the membrane completely.
This is a MUST - you do not want to risk pathogens / disease in the process of recycling waste. I'm very surprised this issue has not been brought up yet...
dank.Frank
canna woop!
Member
Bump, also
Df the membrane is easy to pull off after boiled, as I am sure you know. I just thought I'd add that it seems more similar to uncooked eggs when the boiled are left out for over a few hours
Df the membrane is easy to pull off after boiled, as I am sure you know. I just thought I'd add that it seems more similar to uncooked eggs when the boiled are left out for over a few hours
And for the record, I have no IDEA at all why Gil is getting all this credit - I guess because someone said he should...lol...sigh. (Much like no one ever talks about Masanobu Fukuoka, yet no-till soil is discussed all the time.)
ANYWAY - without getting to pointed - search for patent #8056844 or Vladimir Vlad - and then we can all thank Gil for taking the time to make such a concept more end-user friendly - but to say the base process is HIS method or idea - is without merit.
dank.Frank
ANYWAY - without getting to pointed - search for patent #8056844 or Vladimir Vlad - and then we can all thank Gil for taking the time to make such a concept more end-user friendly - but to say the base process is HIS method or idea - is without merit.
dank.Frank
unhelpful, really ?!? ^ how is that unhelpful?
Maybe hard boiling egg first and then removing shell as you normally would when making hard boiled eggs for deviled eggs or something... is the membrane still intact in this instance D.f?
Maybe hard boiling egg first and then removing shell as you normally would when making hard boiled eggs for deviled eggs or something... is the membrane still intact in this instance D.f?
Hey dank.frank, great post! My grandmother is the one who taught me to use eggshells in soils and mediums. She also baked them the same, and powdered the shells by hand (and a rolling pin). I always left the membrane on, and it browns up, and flakes off most times, but I never deliberately removed them. Will do so now, as I always thought the nasty stuff was on the shell itself. Thanks for the tip! 
Sour - any sort of heat combined with moisture, does help for removing the membrane, yes, as in makes it easier, but still does not entirely remove it. More often than not, the shells that are processed for recycling in different industries are not originally handled in a manner that takes into account they may be reused. Often the shells are discarded and the membrane dries on the shell making it very hard / nearly impossible to remove with any sort of ease. This is why separation methods have been developed and patented to make the process easier...and really, more economically feasible to processes in large quantity.
IF you are using eggs and taking into consideration they will be re-used from the onset, then in all reality, the process is NOT so difficult. When you are only working with a couple dozen eggs, it's not such a big deal...when you are looking at 2 tons of shell matter, and it is in chunks and pieces upon arrival...well, that is a completely different story.
Again...when I use egg shell, I steam them first in a colander, double boiler type of set up, with a lid over the colander to catch the steam better, to loosen the membrane (usually 1/2 shells, from cracking an egg open). From there, I crush them GENTLY, but not so they break apart into individual pieces, but remain a 1/2 shell, cracked and split, but still mostly held together by the membrane. Then I boil them, while agitating the water, stirring heavily and using the side of the pot to continue crushing them up further. During this process, the shells tend to separate a bit and sink, while the membrane floats along the top of the waters surface, which I then begin to use a sieve to skim the surface and remove it. This takes about an hour total. From there I pull at the remaining membrane which does come off MUCH easier as long as they stay rather warm / hot and do not cool or get dry. From there, I bake till they brown a bit...then I pulverize full to a dust / power. Coffee grinder works rather well for this. It takes about 20-24 large eggs shells to make a cup....
Hope that helps / clarifies things a bit and allows others to try different methods of playing around with shells as a liming agent.
dank.Frank
IF you are using eggs and taking into consideration they will be re-used from the onset, then in all reality, the process is NOT so difficult. When you are only working with a couple dozen eggs, it's not such a big deal...when you are looking at 2 tons of shell matter, and it is in chunks and pieces upon arrival...well, that is a completely different story.
Again...when I use egg shell, I steam them first in a colander, double boiler type of set up, with a lid over the colander to catch the steam better, to loosen the membrane (usually 1/2 shells, from cracking an egg open). From there, I crush them GENTLY, but not so they break apart into individual pieces, but remain a 1/2 shell, cracked and split, but still mostly held together by the membrane. Then I boil them, while agitating the water, stirring heavily and using the side of the pot to continue crushing them up further. During this process, the shells tend to separate a bit and sink, while the membrane floats along the top of the waters surface, which I then begin to use a sieve to skim the surface and remove it. This takes about an hour total. From there I pull at the remaining membrane which does come off MUCH easier as long as they stay rather warm / hot and do not cool or get dry. From there, I bake till they brown a bit...then I pulverize full to a dust / power. Coffee grinder works rather well for this. It takes about 20-24 large eggs shells to make a cup....
Hope that helps / clarifies things a bit and allows others to try different methods of playing around with shells as a liming agent.
dank.Frank
No, it's not the same. Any protein based from an animal, when DECOMPOSING can attract / give rise to various pathogens. It would be like saying you cooked a steak it is good to eat and therefore while it decomposes should not attract anything unwanted.
Sterilized at the time in which you remove them from the process, sure. You can touch it and not transfer anything unclean from one surface to another...but you have to consider the decomposition process and what it can give rise to AFTER the fact...
There is a REASON when shells are used for various commercial applications they remove the membranes. There is a reason there are 3 major patented methods for such removal...
dank.Frank
Sterilized at the time in which you remove them from the process, sure. You can touch it and not transfer anything unclean from one surface to another...but you have to consider the decomposition process and what it can give rise to AFTER the fact...
There is a REASON when shells are used for various commercial applications they remove the membranes. There is a reason there are 3 major patented methods for such removal...
dank.Frank
Thanks DF, for the info. Back in my/our grandparent days, food born illness wasn't even a thought to them, pretty sure she toasted the shells only to make them brittle for pulverizing. Great to know this stuff though... it only takes one time to get sick. Curious on what you think about storing "raw" eggshells though? I keep 'em submerged in water with a splash of bleach until I have enough to grind after they were rinsed very well... would you also say this is a dangerous practice? Should they be processed immediately?
I would think any bleach that remained would be detrimental to the beneficial microbes in the soil. You'd certainly want to have them clean of that before crushing and adding to dirt / compost. Otherwise, I really don't treat them as some super special thing. I don't use them all the time as I have a lot of various liming agents around from tinkering with various formulations over the years, but when I do use egg shell, I just kept them in a paper bag after rinsing them out really well so they weren't all gooey / sticky and attracting gnats.
dank.Frank
dank.Frank
Thanks.
Would the same worries apply to fish meal, feather meal, crustacean meal, etc.?
I don't use any slaughterhouse or overfishing industry ingredients in my soil mix for ethical reasons (and because making and using plant-based ingredients is fun, cheap, easy, and effective), but am now curious if pathogens might be another reason to avoid animal-sourced soil amendments, esp. when growing medicine that will be inhaled into the lungs.
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Some have suggests that various bloods and such CAN transfer...people have expressed concerns over guanos in much the same way people do over say "green manure" - I have wondered as much myself...
However, there is no science I have ever found that PROVES such. It might be the difference between what the concern is - ie salmonella can and does transfer to food crops...so therefore I think it is of much higher concern.
good question! I don't have the full answer unfortunately, but I have LOOKED many times, especially since the "ROLS" method (ie and the specific ingredients) surfaced and began being promoted...however, that group also used crab / crustacean meal - and how it differs from bone or whatever, ethically or pathogen promotion, etc, I'm truly not sure.
I've never gotten sick from using all these different things...so, safe?? lol
dank.Frank
However, there is no science I have ever found that PROVES such. It might be the difference between what the concern is - ie salmonella can and does transfer to food crops...so therefore I think it is of much higher concern.
good question! I don't have the full answer unfortunately, but I have LOOKED many times, especially since the "ROLS" method (ie and the specific ingredients) surfaced and began being promoted...however, that group also used crab / crustacean meal - and how it differs from bone or whatever, ethically or pathogen promotion, etc, I'm truly not sure.
I've never gotten sick from using all these different things...so, safe?? lol
dank.Frank
