big plant ppk

[high life 45]

Just to make things clear, I vegged with 15wpsf and flowered with 50wpsf and ended up with chicks like this one... I can imagine gettind 100wpsf, but my imagination has been growing alot recently.

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This is the backside of the same plant, the part growing into the wall.

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No co2 and temps were up in the 90's, should have that dialed this run....

 

[bobblehead]

 

[420ish]

hey, 420ish, welcome! i think you are good with around a 500-600 gph pump for that as you will only be running about 2.5 gals of medium in each one.

there is no reason you cannot run multiple systems with one big pump.

you should be good if you keep the gph around that 120 gph that you mentioned.

with 12 plant positions and your volume of containers you will need a reservoir that will contain at least 12 gals of water at the height your float will be set at.

in your case because the 3 gal tubs are 7" high but have an indented lid you will set the level about 3" deep. that's not very deep so you will need a reservoir that holds 12 gals at that depth.

when looking at possible containers i take a tape measure and a calculator with me.

length x width x height in inches divided by 231 (the number of cubic inches in a gal) will give you a rough idea.

remember that your plumbing and plant reservoirs add working volume.

if you buy a sentinel drt 1 you will be a very happy grower. a nice, precision instrument. you can walk the dog with one.

i can't help you with cabs as i don't know shit about them.

thank you for the info on how to figure the res size.since the plants will be in cabinets and cabinets will be on bricks(in case basement gets any water)that enables me to go 7 inches depth in res due to the 2 inch thick cabinet base and 21/4 inch thick brick.that allows me to use a 29 gallon rubbermaid storage box instead of a fifty gal and gives me 18 gallon res.what do you think of setting water height by mounting the drain hose (bottom of fitting) at 3 inches in the side of the bottom 3 gal roughneck.i would not be able to adjust the air gap but there is not much adjustment with only 6 inches of height.

 

[RipVanWeed]

Starting to build delivery and drain PVC around the room and saw Forkup's method with a 1/2" male adapter and a short stub of pipe. What size is that stub? Does it work for the 5/8" garden hose? I found a fitting 1/2" Male Pipe Thread to 1/2" barb.....but I'm looking for 1/2" MPT to 5/8" barb so I can use garden hose. I may use the Corlons, but I'm looking for alternative's.

Thanks....Rip

 

[delta9nxs]

So...
A cool tube with say a 600w bulb with plants
touching/surrounding the ouside of the tube.
(Due to cooler temps)
Would be counter productive?

Interesting concept ...

So would 1300-1400 umols be the cherry spot ?

Id imagine its bulb dependent yet...
What might be a optimal range with a BB 600w hps to get 1400 umols?




Golden ..


I picked up a Hydro farm DFM but hadn't got around
to figuring out what ta look for, so it's been collecting dust...

Going ta have to play with it tonight. .

Thanks for sharing the gold, D9....

Rock on....

you can't know the answer without measuring. you may have a strong or a weak bulb. you could have imperfections in the glass or it is really dirty. your ballast may be crapping on you.

with a meter in your hand you walk around checking the light at the target, not the source. this, in turn gives you an education about how to work your plants and lights to maximum advantage.

i can't tell you about a 600 as i have never measured one but i bet HL can as he has a meter and 600's.

i don't think there is a "cherry" spot.

the best way to run your bulbs for max production is to run the very front edge of plant material at about 1800 umols.

you are not close enough to cause inhibition but by driving the closest part at that level you are getting more of the plant mass within range of a decent flow rate.

this is where judicious leaf plucking can help. if you have a terminal bud group with a big fan leaf protruding towards the light you might set the whole plant at the range where that one leaf gets 1800 umols but the rest of the plant is not getting as high a flow rate as if the leaf were removed.

it is more productive to remove that leaf allowing you to move the plant 4-5" closer before the first part gets an 1800 umol reading.

just working the odds.

 

[delta9nxs]

Ok.. I'm not even going to try and grasp this subject. ..lol

I Googled...

are footcandle the same as umols


And my brain hurts after 2 quick reads. .lol

Ya might like some of them...

I almost understood ...
foot-candles, lux, lumens, sunlight, PAR - The Krib


And that's all I gots ta say. ... Peace. ..

the krib is great! it's what happens when a bunch of physicists are also aquarist.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

View Image
View Image

lol bobbles gone all dawg on us !

 

[forkup]

RipVanWeed the pipe stub is 1/2" cpvc which is 5/8" OD. It fits 5/8"garden hose perfectly and I've had no problem with leaks at that point.

I originally threaded the adapters in with teflon tape but they leaked. There just isn't enough pipe wall thickness with schedule 40 pvc for a properly threaded hole. I was careful to test running the tap in to different depths checking the fit of the adapter with a spare piece of pipe but I still ended up with leaks. I ended up taking the adapters out, cleaning off the teflon tape and gluing the adapters in with plumbers goop.....no leaks now.

If you look at the pic I posted I drilled holes for the adapters on a 90 angle from one another because plants will run down both sides of the pipe. I wish I'd used more angle like 120-150 degrees spread because the garden hose doesn't want to lay flat and it worries me about proper drainage. I may end up gluing 1/2" cpvc street elbows onto the ends of the pipe stub so I can have them lay flatter to the floor. HLs method of stacking the supply and return lines may have been a better option for me but I'll live with this for at least 1 run.

To anyone choosing pump sizes, on 8 positions using 3.5 gallon buckets for uppers a 1266 gph ecopump floods them to saturation in about 30 seconds.

 

[DHF]

Thanks for all that scientific jargon explaining the plants needs D9 compared to the only way I had of measuring shit with lumens and lux per my old digital light meter.....and....

Watts per sq ft is subjective at best as you pointed out about what the readings are when the light hits the perimeters of the plants compared to what actually goes through and ends up as after it hits the exterior walls , and THAT will tell yas if they`re getting what they need from front to back for proper canopy development with bare bulbs hangin.....that said....

I live to learn , and you sir always keep me in ponder mode to keep learnin , so thanks for your time , knowledge , and experience.......and.....

Farmari....Horizontal growers ALWAYS run 2 - 1KW`s over 4 x 8 flood and drain tables for 66.6 watt`s per sq ft , but point a meter at em and it`s considerably less than that at canopy level down to the deepest regions of the possible penetration......bottom line....

How close yas can keep the bulbs to the plants without scorchin/bleachin where they`ll produce accordingly and consistently was the ticket for me over the yrs......

I`ve got growbro`s that run beds with almost 100 watts per sq ft horizontal with end to end tables and overlap from the lights to take care of the footprint , but they grow budsicles and don`t worry bout stretch and canopy depth as a problem for lumen penetration with minimal plant height but with super ass dialed ambient temps and RH , so again.......

It`s all in whatchas can dial and produce "consistently"......period...D9......again....Thanks for bringin the scientific end of things to the forefront so all can learn instead of me just preachin over the yrs what works , and do it or suffer.......

I think that`s a lot of where I`ve dealt with so much controversy over the yrs cuz I don`t back down from what works cuz it`s time tested and proven , but your way seems like the most logical approach with ways to back up the findings compared to an old head just sayin do it and reap the rewards.....anyways......

I learned from the best and did what I was told......and benefitted from it greatly I might add , but just wanted to say Happy Independence Day and wish yas were here for the burnt meat and spoiled seafood with all the pitiful fixins ta go with it....

Told FHC I bought enough fireworks ta blow up a third world country , so hit google earth and the gulf coast tonite round dark thirty and I`ll wave to yas as the sky explodes and lights up ...........

Peace.....Freds.........

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9 I'm not sure about a debate existing either just some random discussion, IMO worth mentioning when a new grower might begin to think 15w/sqft being something they should try, regardless of Heath and HL45 possibly doing low w/sq ft tree grows successfully.
I don't know anything about quantum meters... how accurate are they? I don't know anything about this subject but had guessed at their possible overestimation of PAR light intensity... because graphs that I've seen of their sensitivity suggested to me that they calculate all light equally as 100% PAR between the 400-700 wavelengths.

I use a luxometer and convert lux to umol knowing an approximate conversion of HPS light from lux to umol, from Gavita's published data and one or two other sources of general HPS estimates. I'd expect an integrating sphere test results to allow for more accurate estimations using lux than using a umol meter, if testing HPS bulbs.

What I've been seeing is that even at 100 watts per square foot, with a fairly even light distribution, (such as the Gavita DE reflector) the canopy level umol is only going to be around 1000-1500.

Yes the Gavita 1000w DE for instance gives off over 2000umol/sq m, which in theory is 2000umol at 100w/sq ft. But reflector losses, varied angles, losses off of walls, etc, reduce that significantly.

Now, just because a meter says the canopy is getting a certain umol doesn't mean the actual leaves are. They have all sorts of curves and angles, and most leaf surface of a plant is at least partially shadowed by other leafs.

So you can blast a plant with the amount of light that from a point source (like one bare bulb) would be +2000umol which would be wasteful, but that same amount of light could be utilized far more effectively with an effective leaf average below 1500umol due to different leaf angles, canopy depth, reflection of light off of reflectors, walls, and most importantly the use of multiple light sources.

I guess I'm effectively agreeing with you that a blanket interpretation obscures a lot of important details and that what a plant recieves can be far more complicated than what might be inferred by a simple wattage count or a one point light meter estimate.

I'm having trouble concentrating right now and am merely hoping that I'm making any sense but I guess the overall view I have to express is that multiple overlapping light sources and angles from a properly pruned canopy can result in very high yields per square foot. I used to look at the logarithmic looking light intensity to photosynthesis chart and think less w/sq ft the better but real life experience has led me away from that. (though again this is just one person's experience, I'm not saying it's 100% true for everyone! So many variables)

And for growers, possibly flawed or simplistic advice is far better than no advice or ignoring the underlying principle. Professional indoor and greenhouse horticulturalists don't need to be told to look further in depth while indoor growers generally could make great use out of simple advice such as what DHF gives on 50w/sq ft.

we are all on the same track here. we are just discussing terminology and tools.

the times they are a changin'. as the dominoes fall, state by state, it is becoming increasingly clear that plant limits will be the rule.

and precision lighting will become more popular.

i'm sure that a new grower would not go far wrong using the 50 wpsf rule unless they placed plants too close and induced photo-inhibition.

but taking my flower room as an example, i have 266 sq ft of floor space. applying 50 wpsf would require that i use 13,300 watts, which is totally out of the question for me here for a variety of reasons.

so what i'm trying to do is get maximum yield from about 6K total including the veg area.

i will have to live with whatever yield i get at this location.

so, since i can't use brute force i have to use finesse and artifice.

this involves not only working the plants against the lights but flipping up and down right now twice per period to spread total total light distribution out a little more.

defoliating plants at critical times to increase bud mass.

flattening the plants as i approach harvest to get all buds into a decent light field.

and using multi-point lighting.

i'm still working on this and don't have it down to a final form yet but i hope to achieve what i term a "steady state" perpetual producing somewhere around 1.5 lbs per plant average within 2 months from now.

that is probably going to be a practical limit for me.

the second plant i harvested went "out the door" at 18 zips. not too bad for only getting about 500 watts during flower

 

[delta9nxs]

Just to make things clear, I vegged with 15wpsf and flowered with 50wpsf and ended up with chicks like this one... I can imagine gettind 100wpsf, but my imagination has been growing alot recently.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=35933&pictureid=1099868&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

This is the backside of the same plant, the part growing into the wall.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=35933&pictureid=1099873&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

No co2 and temps were up in the 90's, should have that dialed this run....

that's one heavy assed bitch!

 

[delta9nxs]

thank you for the info on how to figure the res size.since the plants will be in cabinets and cabinets will be on bricks(in case basement gets any water)that enables me to go 7 inches depth in res due to the 2 inch thick cabinet base and 21/4 inch thick brick.that allows me to use a 29 gallon rubbermaid storage box instead of a fifty gal and gives me 18 gallon res.what do you think of setting water height by mounting the drain hose (bottom of fitting) at 3 inches in the side of the bottom 3 gal roughneck.i would not be able to adjust the air gap but there is not much adjustment with only 6 inches of height.

hey, yeah, i think that will work with your plants elevated allowing you to get more working volume from the res.

and the raised drain set at 3" below the top container should work too.

just remember those totes have about a 1" indentation in the lids and so your top will sit nested in the bottom.

 

[delta9nxs]

have a great 4th fred, and everyone else too.

i just spent mine trapped up a dead end road with a washed over bridge. rained all day and i just now got power, internet and tv back because a trucker took out a pole up on the highway. took em' all day to fix it but the poor bastards did it in the driving rain on the 4th.

the rain has slowed and the bridge has reappeared so it looks like we may actually be able to get some dinner.

later on

 

[icdog]

Hey D9 I'm getting some leaf droop in my 8 container setup. ph dropped to 5.3ish, i replaced the water today and am waiting for a result. Any suggestions?
At the moment the setup is the same, a 1200 gph pump to a 3/4 in feed line with 4 crosses for each container, i added some valves to control the flow and things seem much more even. But the amazing growth has changed to leaf droop.

 

[disciple]

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9 I'm getting some leaf droop in my 8 container setup. ph dropped to 5.3ish, i replaced the water today and am waiting for a result. Any suggestions?
At the moment the setup is the same, a 1200 gph pump to a 3/4 in feed line with 4 crosses for each container, i added some valves to control the flow and things seem much more even. But the amazing growth has changed to leaf droop.

sounds to me they are too wet. do you have pics?

 

[high life 45]

that's one heavy assed bitch!

Yeah, I seem to have some sort of elephantitis virus.
The plants just get bigger and bigger everytime. The worms have something to do with it im sure.

 

[DHF]

When wpsf is used, is it referring to watts per square foot of canopy or wpsf of floor space?

at one time it was all about horizontal bulbs in reflectors (or vert bulbs in lamp shades)... so floor space fits right into that....

your awesome canopy is of course vertical.... and certainly adequately lit especially with the flipping of different bulbs during the photoperiod

When I first fouind Krusty waaaaay back when , his formula for 3+ lb plants was 50 watts per sq ft of "floor space" not sideways canopy penetration Disciple , and as I`ve said many times in the past I went with 600`s in the corners and 1KW MH in the middle of my 4 plant 5 light setups that only used 34 watts per sq ft , and did well for almost a decade......but....

I never grew in any rooms bigger than 10 x 10 , and when I went with 50 watts per sq ft the rooms were smaller flip rooms turnin on and off every 12 hrs , and the results from a strain I`d run for 12 yrs outside and another almost 10 inside with krusty buckets were as different as night and day with more pronounced nug density and trichome formation/production , and I mean a LOT more.......now....

I completely understand D9`s thoughts and findings on what he`s doin with his lights and sq ftg allowed for each plant , and I`ll defer to his findings and results , but I stand firm in my findings with smaller rooms and 50 watts per for dialed results once environment and strains have been taken care of as well.....

Hell.....Thrillspan`s plants grown with vertical hangin LED hexagonal light array`s impressed the fuck outta me recently , and he`s FAR from dialed in so the times they are a changing , although he was using the equivalent of 50 watts per sq ft in said grow area..but....

All about the knowledge.....and I`m learning more from this tightknit group than I`ve learned in a long time so ya`ll keep up the good work and make an old man proud....

Peace.....DHF..........

 

[disciple]

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

awesome post disciple.
Ive been waiting for this sort of scenario since things became more legal.

im wondering how it applies to myself. I currently have 2 plants and 2 600w lights. The 2 plants are between the 2 lights. Its a change from using a 3 light column.

im noticing that the single 600s arent covering the height of the tree, even tho im pruning away at the bottom of the plant to lessen the vert height of the greenery.

Im wondering if i have plants that are too big for the current light setup (even tho i only vegged 4 weeks)

Time will tell.