Decarboxylation and medical properties???

[Guest 26753]

Last week I was in touch with Professor Manuel Guzman, and with particular regard to using cannabis as a topical treatment for skin cancers (and other cancers), his best advice was:

"We do not know how THC-COOH affects tumor growth. Although the body can decarboxylate THC-COOH, I believe it would be safer to proceed to its decarboxylaton before application to the patient.
Greetings,
Manuel"

Now, in regard to using a non-decarboxylated tincture to treat patients, in Australia Tony Bower (Mullaway) is having significant success with his tinctures. His tincture info is here:

Mullaways Medical Cannabis
Tincture Certificate of Analysis 1
Tincture Certificate of Analysis 2

Direct NMR analysis of cannabis water extracts and tinctures
and semi-quantitative data on D9-THC and D9-THC-acid

Unheated Cannabis tea revisited: a systematic evaluation of the cannabinoid composition of cannabis tea.

Journal of ethnopharmacology 2007;113(1):85-90.

Abstract
Cannabis is one of the oldest known medicinal plants, and a large variety of biological activities have been described. The main constituents, the cannabinoids, are thought to be most important for these activities. Although smoking of cannabis is by far the most common way of consumption, a significant part of medicinal users consume it in the form of a tea. However, not much is known about the composition of cannabis tea, or the effect of different parameters during preparation, handling or storage. In this study we used the high-grade cannabis available in Dutch pharmacies to study the cannabinoid composition of tea under standardized and quantitative conditions. Experimental conditions were systematically varied in order to mimic the possible variations made by medicinal users. During analysis there was a specific focus on the cannabinoid tetrahydrocannabinol and its acidic precursor, tetrahydrocannabinolic acid. Also the role of non-psychoactive cannabinoids as components of cannabis tea are discussed. The results obtained in this study provide a clear quantitative insight in the phytochemistry of cannabis tea preparation and can contribute to a better appreciation of this mode of cannabis administration.

 

[madscientist81]

Last week I was in touch with Professor Manuel Guzman, and with particular regard to using cannabis as a topical treatment for skin cancers (and other cancers), his best advice was:

"We do not know how THC-COOH affects tumor growth. Although the body can decarboxylate THC-COOH, I believe it would be safer to proceed to its decarboxylaton before application to the patient.
Greetings,
Manuel"

Now, in regard to using a non-decarboxylated tincture to treat patients, in Australia Tony Bower (Mullaway) is having significant success with his tinctures. His tincture info is here:

Mullaways Medical Cannabis
Tincture Certificate of Analysis 1
Tincture Certificate of Analysis 2

View Image

Direct NMR analysis of cannabis water extracts and tinctures
and semi-quantitative data on D9-THC and D9-THC-acid

Unheated Cannabis tea revisited: a systematic evaluation of the cannabinoid composition of cannabis tea.

Journal of ethnopharmacology 2007;113(1):85-90.

Abstract
Cannabis is one of the oldest known medicinal plants, and a large variety of biological activities have been described. The main constituents, the cannabinoids, are thought to be most important for these activities. Although smoking of cannabis is by far the most common way of consumption, a significant part of medicinal users consume it in the form of a tea. However, not much is known about the composition of cannabis tea, or the effect of different parameters during preparation, handling or storage. In this study we used the high-grade cannabis available in Dutch pharmacies to study the cannabinoid composition of tea under standardized and quantitative conditions. Experimental conditions were systematically varied in order to mimic the possible variations made by medicinal users. During analysis there was a specific focus on the cannabinoid tetrahydrocannabinol and its acidic precursor, tetrahydrocannabinolic acid. Also the role of non-psychoactive cannabinoids as components of cannabis tea are discussed. The results obtained in this study provide a clear quantitative insight in the phytochemistry of cannabis tea preparation and can contribute to a better appreciation of this mode of cannabis administration.

Hey Moose, glad to have you in on the discussion. Thanks for posting that link to Mullaways-I'd never heard of them before but I'm going to check it out.

Very interesting to hear you were talking to Guzman. If I recall correctly, he's the guy who studied cannabinoids in squamous cell carcinomas and melanoma in mice (for anyone who hasn't checked out his work I highly recommend it- it's some of the only quality research on the topic of cannabinoids and skin cancer. I think he also did the study in humans with THC for Glioblastoma). So I'd love to know what else he may have said on the topic because I never bothered contacting him- just assumed he didn't want to have people contacting him and asking cannabis-related questions.

A few such questions I have (that you may know or already asked him) include:

1.) His studies they injected cannabinoids subcutaneously near the tumor. So with us applying topicals I assume this is a close enough and convenient analog to what they did.

2.)The big question of dose. What is the optimal dose? My reasons for asking are

A.) While they tested THC in cell cultures, I think they used WIN for in vivo and since THC is a partial agonist while WIN is a full agonist/higher efficacy etc.

B.) Mice aren't humans. Is inter-species dosage scaling an issue?

C.) Biphasic and dose-dependent effects. In some models and conditions, cannabinoids have biphasic effects. In Guzman's review paper on CB's for various cancers, he said some evidence seems to suggest low doses of CB's are not as good as high doses or may even make the situation worse.

3.) What enzyme(s) in the body decarboxylate THCA into THC?


As far as cannabinoid acids for cancer treatment, I would agree with Guzman in that thus far there are few known mechanisms by which they would be beneficial- whereas we know neutral THC and CBD can be. Of course there are some exceptions...

 

[coquelicotreve]

people who right bump or poo on others ought to find a life

 

[dociron]

Bump!!

 

[danut]

3.) What enzyme(s) in the body decarboxylate THCA into THC?

Enzymes are not involved. Heat is. Body heat is enough to do the job, slowly.

When eaten, about 10% is converted before the rest is excreted.

 

[Truthman]

Enzymes are not involved. Heat is. Body heat is enough to do the job, slowly.

When eaten, about 10% is converted before the rest is excreted.

No, enzymes are involved. Your body is not hot enough to boil off the thca. That happens at around 240f.

Your body heat is enough to activate the enzymes which do decarboxylation, but you need vitamin b6 to get those going.

As far as excretion, I don't think that is a factual number. Food plays a part. High fat foods will slow excretion, high fiber foods will speed it up. Then you have to take into account how much b vitamins are in the food. That 10% number can be lower of higher depending on what you eat, as well as you intestinal health, and blood flow.

 

[danut]

No, enzymes are involved. Your body is not hot enough to boil off the thca. That happens at around 240f.

Your body heat is enough to activate the enzymes which do decarboxylation, but you need vitamin b6 to get those going.

As far as excretion, I don't think that is a factual number. Food plays a part. High fat foods will slow excretion, high fiber foods will speed it up. Then you have to take into account how much b vitamins are in the food. That 10% number can be lower of higher depending on what you eat, as well as you intestinal health, and blood flow.

Wonderful .. So I guess that if you have an extract without any enzymes, you can't decarb it. Is that what you are saying?

BTW .. we test for that all the time ..

We extract and then decarb .. That's the way we have been doing it for the last four years. We also get the results tested to ensure it has been completely decarbed. The testing requires HPLC testing to determine the completeness of the decarb step.

 

[danut]

Plant enzymes ARE required to degrade THC into CBN.

The degradation that produces CBN is considered a method to determine the age of the plant material. To prove it, someone stuffed some freeze dried ground up whole plant in a cool dark place for storage. Then tested the crap and found out that heat and light caused the crap to degrade. Exactly how it was determined that heat and light caused the degradation is a complete mystery as it was stored in a cool dark place.

It WAS noted that if you made an extract of the cannabis, no degradation would take place in the extract.

 

[Truthman]

Wonderful .. So I guess that if you have an extract without any enzymes, you can't decarb it. Is that what you are saying?

BTW .. we test for that all the time ..

We extract and then decarb .. That's the way we have been doing it for the last four years. We also get the results tested to ensure it has been completely decarbed. The testing requires HPLC testing to determine the completeness of the decarb step.

No, I'm saying the enzymes in your body decarbs it, but you need certain nutrients to activate them, and those are b vitamins, in this case b6.

As far as cbn, you don't need enzymes to do that, heat, light and oxygen, can do it. The heat speeds up the oxygen that will be available to the oil, since most oils loves oxygen. It is the oxygen that is turning the thc into cbn. If you have thc-a in your herb, the rate will be much slower then if you had pure thc. I see thc-a as something that helps preserve the thc.


The extract can still turn a lot of thc into cbn, if it is a dry one like hash/oil. I have seen, and heard of good "up" type hash turning into "lethargic, lazy" type hash, and that is from the thc turning into cbn. It just takes much longer for the hash/oil since it is so dense. A liquid extract won't turn the thc-cbn so easily because the liquid will protect it from having a lot of oxygen getting into it.

 

[danut]

No, I'm saying the enzymes in your body decarbs it, but you need certain nutrients to activate them, and those are b vitamins, in this case b6.

There is zero in literature that supports that. Nothing at all.

Human enzymes decarb THCa ??????????????

 

[oldchuck]

Interesting thread. Please keep it going.

 

[Truthman]

There is zero in literature that supports that. Nothing at all.

Human enzymes decarb THCa ??????????????

Yes, there is no literature on this, but I figured this out, myself. It all makes sense once you think about it, in it's whole context. You need b6 to activate the enzymes that metabolize fat, and protein, yet b6 is water soluble. The body makes up for this by making bile, which helps everything blend together to be digested. This so why lecithin is good to take, it helps the fat, and water soluble substances to blend together even more.

Thc-a is water soluble, so I figured adding b6 to your cannabis containg food will help release the water soluble thc-a into the fat soluble thc, which will then attach to the fatty food you have eaten such as an avocado or some type of nuts or seed. B6 is most likely the reason why eating raw cannabis with foods like nuts, seeds, or avocados can still get you high, as these foods contain a nice amount of it, along with a lot of good fats.

 

[dociron]

bump! :~)

 

[jump117]

Thc-a is water soluble,

I think they are not water soluble.

 

[Truthman]

I think they are not water soluble.

Thc-a IS water soluble, thc is fat soluble. It is well known that thc-a is water soluble.

 

[jump117]

That is why rain washes them out from flowers? lol!

Thc-a IS water soluble, thc is fat soluble. It is well known that thc-a is water soluble.

Please explain the origin of the opinion that THCa are water soluble, from where it is well known to you?

 

[Truthman]

That is why rain washes them out from flowers? lol!

You're forgetting that the waxy coating protects the trichome, so the water will just slide off of the trichome which protect the compounds within the trichome. Just like a waxy coating protecting the contents inside the leaf.

Thca is a carboxylic acid, and they are water soluble.

 

[jump117]

Did you ever try to wash your hands after the work with buds when they are sticky because covered with thca resin?
Plain water dissolves thca?

no...

 

[Truthman]

jump117, you are not understanding how things work even though I explained it to you. The waxy coating is protecting the contents inside the trichome, you can't just wash it away off your hands. If you heat up some water that will allow the waxy coating to melt, you will have access to the thc-a, which will allow the thc-a to dissolve into water. This has been proven already with cannabis tea. Here's a video on it:

Go to 15:00 to see how much thc-a vs. thc that is in the water. Watch the whole video to learn how the thc is soluble in water, and some other fun things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99xK_T3kdXA

 

[jump117]

Thanks for the explanation!

Do I understand that the source of your opinions on THC-a solubility in water is a video on u-Tube?
Unfortunately, this is not enough competent source brought you into error.

Correct knowledge of the solubility THC-a confirmed by practices of various chemical extractions of THC-a and THC from the plant material.

To expand your erudition about the subject visit the forum "concentrates", it will also be useful for correcting erroneous ideas.