organics are slower?

[danthestonerman]

Hello I am new to this forum. I have bean growing my own legal michigan meds for about 3 years now, this last 3 grows switching from chemical to organics and really enjoying it. However I have read and noticed that it seems to be taking a little longer to flower. So I thought I would start a discussion on that. Does is take longer? If so why? Anyone dissagree? and why?

I grow in roots organic soil for veg and subcools recipe slighly modified for flower. I veg under 2 advanced led all blue veg 180w leds... 2 240w blue veg leds....and one 300w full spectrum led. I flower under 2 1000w in xxl cooled hoods and I have a hydro gen pro liquid cooled co2 burner monitored at 1500ppm. Temps are kept at 75 and 45% humidity. I dont believe its my grow rooms. I water every 3-4 days with tea every 3-4 waterings. I dont top bend or otherwise cause stress to them. Usualky they are bright green with no burns or deficiencies. And later in flowering they will fade and change colors some as normal. The only thing is it seems to take 25% or more longer to veg and 25% longer to flower with the same strains ive ran for three years now? Strains are skunk. berry bomb. Afghan/yumbolt. Ny purple diesel. So lets talk any ideas or is it just the way organics are no changing it?

 

[self]

I don't think it necessarily takes longer, but it does take more patience!

 

[danthestonerman]

Thanks for the replys. Do you have any suggestions as to what is wrong with my organics "game" ? I listed basicly every aspect..... when I mix my soil it sits for 30 days. As I said I use the subcool soil with roots organic base. I just use the brands I can buy local but all quality organic meals and such. And last question. What do u mean it doesnt take longer but takes more patience. I go by trichs color like any other med user. Smoke just takes a week or two longer to finish than with chemicals. If thats normal im fine with that im just wondering. More for conversations sake....

 

[xmobotx]

well; the living soil approach is the way to get full benefit of organics

it isnt necessarily a 'recipe' approach ~the key is really good humus inputs as EWC which is still alive as opposed to sitting on the shelf @ a store or good, living compost w/ diverse inputs for your compost tea

barring that it would seem that such products as ful-power and/or TM7 {which are kinda spendy but very concentrated} help to give you good humic inputs in the form of the humic acid and fulvic acid {there are numerous products of this ilk which are worthless} bio-ag is a different category of this particular offering {all of this is just confirming clackamas cootz' advice since i have taken it and applied it}

IDK what 'subcool's recipe' is but; there's more to it than following a recipe & that has a lot to do w/ the nuances you learn supporting your soil as a living organism {some have equated it to keeping a pet}

 

[redneck shogun]

The patience is in self improvement. Recipes may good to start with but one day you will be better than a recipe.

 

[Greenheart]

Living Organics takes months to setup and establish. Too much N will definitely prolong flowering time. When I first made the switch I thought recycling by adding store shelf EWC was easy. After spending a couple months reading ROLS and many of the other organic soil threads I got that worm bin action going on and sourced proper ammendments. Life is getting better and easier. What you need with organics is as stated patience, time, love, and understanding. About like most things in life.

Below was my path to enlightenment on the N factor.

aloha Avalon...I'd like a shot at your concerns...
Im along the lines of what Dansbuds is suggesting...
This is what I refer to as growing Buds..not Flowering buds...
Some say heat stress and I get where that comes from...
but its up to the user to know if thats the actual case...
To me what u have a imbalance of formula for that Type of variety...
If you hit a lets say Haze with heavy N...it will never ever stop flowering..cause most hazes need hardly any N thru bloom even tho they need to be fed low and constant for months with a more 1-4-5 formula...
Indicas for me get a sorta 3-2-4 goin into bloom and a high PPM...then round down to a 1-4-5 then 1-5-6 pr 0-5-6 pending type...
Allot may even imply its genetic but it is in a way..
For Sat doms I start bloom with a low 2-4-6...and by wk 3 switch to a 1-4-5 at a low-med PPM...
Also if you r direct N is equal to P you get a growing Calyx...If P and K are in the proper range you get a Swelling calyx..
Its expressing according to the Food/Room tho...not the actual needs of the plant...as in you gave it to much of something and its out of balance and thus Grew your Calyx's and did not Swell them..
This might all seem a lil diff of a view..think it over..let it sink in...
but I know how ya feel....been there n done that...
See this Stretched out Calyx?.....thast imbalance of N to P ratio in bloom..to much N..vs not enough P...and why did it happen?..cause this strain didnt need much N at all thru bloom..so it s stored it ..and stored it..etc...and soon as it became flush time...
I only used water and it opened up the N reserve an "Grew" the calyx's...anyway its the users call and i think with all the suggestions you def have some options to try...
This pic was a SOL BSat v1 in DWC controlled nutes tested for level reaction...my clawing was a sever N overdose..so I tried to flush it out with a mild P-K solution..but as said it kept growing"...
The SupMFBerry is also a type i tested this idea on and got same or bout same reaction being they are diff types..
When I see chalky stretched out calyx's and not so great resins it perty much is the plant saying it..
Now I do run my room hot and rather Dry...in bloom 78-85+deg/35-45%RH...and heres what osSSH forms like within this hot dry room..no foxes by formula..theres also a ripening point to talk on when it comes to over flowering...I'd def try and get it to express more classically...Then make small adjustment till your happy...sorry for the long post..hope any of it helps..
power to it and keep rollin
FOE20

quoted from this thread. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5646829#post5646829

My 70-75 day time had crept up to 83-90 days. I even had one plant go 140 before I finally just said time to go.

 

[danthestonerman]

Very good input thank you all. The subcool recipe is a organic soil recipe thats starts with a "base soil" i use roots organic. And then using all organic ammendmenrs such as kelp meal alfalfa meal bone beal and i add mico spores also. ..... subcool is the breeder of tga seeds. World renowned activist and such. Has manychightimes arcticles on organic growing and a big arcticle on his soil process. I do use my own ewc from my personal worm bin and i use about 25-30lbs to a batch of soil (55 gallon drum with the other amendments and and base soil. cook 30 days). I understand the living soil thing and Ihavent yet added the bioag tm7 but I just placed an order yesterday for some. It is unavailable locally however i was recomended by many to use it. So it sounds to me like I am on the right track and I just need to make adjustments to things as I learn what work better than others. Anyone like to make any other points?

 

[danthestonerman]

For my compost tea I use composted alpaca manure. I use molasses and kelp and some fish emultion with the compost and a little splash or mico spores to ensure propagation or whatever the word is. Haha bubble it for a day and water with it every 3-4 days. Makes 5 gallons or so.

 

[VerdantGreen]

plants wont fade as quickly if your soil is too rich in my experience. apart from that, organics arent slower as long as your soil is good.

not done the 'supersoil' thing though. i prefer to have my soil well mixed and lighter.

VG

 

[xmobotx]

running mycho spores in your compost tea is just wasting them

a compost tea is more effective as a 'compost tea'/adding nutrients as kelp & fish emulsion more or less makes it a nutrient tea & slows the development of microbial action ~if you are using that tea within 24 hours, you might as well just topdress w/ your compost and water w/ your kelp/fish emulsion

are you bubbling w/ a decent airpump? i use an aquarium airpump {well, 2 of them} but; i run to a single line and run that in to a length of pipe which functions as an air lift



if you like the results you are getting keep using the method you're using {that doesnt seem to be the case though}

it would seem like losing subcool's "recipe" might be a good start if you want to get more from organics
@ some point {within reasonable levels} the NPK approach to organic gardening is flawed
~in nature, plants dont have nutrients measured out to them; they tell the soil what they want and the soil shares a symbiotic relationship w/ the plant providing according to the exudates of the roots

 

[VerdantGreen]

thats true xmo, but it is also possible for plants to overfeed themselves, especially on Nitrogen, if the soil is too rich. that really dark green/almost blue colour is not what you want in canna plants. (although some strains are naturally darker green than others i guess)

VG

 

[danthestonerman]

Well it seems as thow I was wrong in my tea production as well. I was told that the foods, fish emultion and kelp and molasess were to feed the spores and micos to help them reproduce and without the food they would not reproduce. I use two smaller pumps and 2 4" airstones. So can sombody post your tea process and maybe share a little why u do what u do?

I would like to try to get more ideas and more knowledge on the subject. I am relatively unexperienced but somewhat educated..... not a total noob anyhow. It seems to me that there are about a hundred way to grow bud and the only right way IMO is let mother nature do the hard work. But understanding mother nature takes time. I try to keep myself informed and educated but as u can see I have gotten some not so good points of advice. Please feel free to educate me further. I enjoy learning and I enjoy organics.

Btw I should clarify that the super soil is not used alone as a flowering soil. Its basicly supposed to be used in the bottom 1/4 of your flowering pot just befor flowering. The plants slowly grow into it and use the super soil as needed or this is the idea given anyway. It is a very hot soil. Maybe someone could post another soil mix or how you prepare your soils. I would do away with premixed base soil if I knew how to prepare a good quality soil.....

 

[OrganicOzarks]

running mycho spores in your compost tea is just wasting them

a compost tea is more effective as a 'compost tea'/adding nutrients as kelp & fish emulsion more or less makes it a nutrient tea & slows the development of microbial action ~if you are using that tea within 24 hours, you might as well just topdress w/ your compost and water w/ your kelp/fish emulsion

are you bubbling w/ a decent airpump? i use an aquarium airpump {well, 2 of them} but; i run to a single line and run that in to a length of pipe which functions as an air lift

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=11079&pictureid=826646View Image

if you like the results you are getting keep using the method you're using {that doesnt seem to be the case though}

it would seem like losing subcool's "recipe" might be a good start if you want to get more from organics
@ some point {within reasonable levels} the NPK approach to organic gardening is flawed
~in nature, plants dont have nutrients measured out to them; they tell the soil what they want and the soil shares a symbiotic relationship w/ the plant providing according to the exudates of the roots

I am very confused by your post. Fish, and kelp are microbial foods for a compost tea. Leaving them out will most likely result in low microbial count. So are alfalfa meal, molasses, sucanat, etc..

 

[danthestonerman]

First i would like to say that quality densty and potency is not my concern. I always produce quality buds and my question is about length of flower time and how or why it may take longer for my organic grows than it has for chemical grows in the past.

Now organicozarks...thats what I thought. I was told that the reason a soil needs all of the amendments is that they are there for the microbes to eat and thus produce food for the plants to use. However I see a contradiction. If I fed the microbes a good ammount while I brew the tea it may result in microbes that are not "hungry"? And if they arent eating the soil then my plats wont get the proper food. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming this.

I was also under the assumption that microbes multiply when brewing tea and that this is the point of brewing tea. So if I ad microbes to the tea would it be a waste or would it just further populate the soil?

Lets keep this going there has already bean a lot o helpful info. And id like to just say thanks for every one thats had input.

 

[danthestonerman]

The post earlier about the "N" contributing to longer flowering periods seems to be very accurate. My afghan is a very dark green very lush plant thru flower and it is one of the longer ones yet breeder says its supposed to be a 8-9 week strain. And with chemical ferts it held true. Althow sometimes close to 11 weeks lately. as u said some of my strains (skunk for example) has a beautiful fade at 7-8 weeks and finishes up at 8-9 weeks like it always has.

I have heard that lower temps can slow growth also. I keep my room at about 75 and 45% humidity. And I use a co2 burner to keep ppm at 1500. Does anyone see anything out of ordinary there? Night temps may differ some but it is thermostat controlled so not more than 2-3 degrees. however the mumidity tends to climb to the 60% range overnight. Within an hr or two of lights on the humidity is bsck to normal.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

First i would like to say that quality densty and potency is not my concern. I always produce quality buds and my question is about length of flower time and how or why it may take longer for my organic grows than it has for chemical grows in the past.

Now organicozarks...thats what I thought. I was told that the reason a soil needs all of the amendments is that they are there for the microbes to eat and thus produce food for the plants to use. However I see a contradiction. If I fed the microbes a good ammount while I brew the tea it may result in microbes that are not "hungry"? And if they arent eating the soil then my plats wont get the proper food. Correct me if I am wrong in assuming this.

I was also under the assumption that microbes multiply when brewing tea and that this is the point of brewing tea. So if I ad microbes to the tea would it be a waste or would it just further populate the soil?

Lets keep this going there has already bean a lot o helpful info. And id like to just say thanks for every one thats had input.

Let's look at what a compost tea is, and the process of making the tea. The entire point of the tea is to "grow" more microbes. The mechanical process of the compost tea brewer will knock loose the microbes. As long as conditions are right in the water, temp, oxygen levels, food sources, the microbes that you knocked loose will now "multiply", or "grow." Thus creating a shit ton of microbes from not to much compost.

Without a food source the microbes will not "multiply" as you want them to. These food sources include molasses, sucanat, kelp meal, liquid kelp, alfalfa meal, humic acid(I know this one is contested by some, but I find it good to add it when brewing for better mixing in your liquid)Fish hydrolysate, etc, etc.

Also as has been discussed without the proper aeration you will have problems with microbial multiplication.(if that is a term)

I suppose since I have always done the bigger is always better, I have not ran into a situation where I have not had enough air.

With respect to temperature even when I brew in hot temperatures I have not had quality teas in an extremely faster time. The 18 hour brew was still not as good as the 24 hour brew. When I have brewed in the mid to low 60's I have had to up that to 48 hours to get something that resembled a quality brew.

Now that I think about it I don't really know why I just went over all of this as we have microbeman on this forum. I don't think some people realize how lucky we are to have "personal" access to someone with his knowledge on a subject.

Even on twitter, or facebook I have not had such direct access to someone at the top of their field.

Lucky we are, young padawans.

 

[danthestonerman]

Just about excactly what I was told as well. Now were on to something. I will try to add a better air pump to the brew in the near future. If nothing else they are cheap and it cant hurt. Can anyone touch on my questoion about grow room climate? My room is 12'x 12' I have a 1'tall 10'x10' table that keeps plants off the cement floor room is 75 deg 45% humidity with night humidity around 60% at times. Night Temps are very close to day temps probably within a couple deg. I use a co2 burner at 1500 ppm durring the day only. Does anyone see a problem with any of this? Any reason to have slower growth? Prior grows temps have bean 85-90s at times but recently got a split ac. Ac does not directly blow on plants at all. Just keeps a nice 75 deg and helps with humidity as well.

 

[Microbeman]

thats true xmo, but it is also possible for plants to overfeed themselves, especially on Nitrogen, if the soil is too rich. that really dark green/almost blue colour is not what you want in canna plants. (although some strains are naturally darker green than others i guess)

VG

If using soluble nutrients, which a living soil should have very little of.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi microbeman, so you think it's impossible to burn or overfeed plants with organic amendments like alfalfa etc? i thought alfalfa could burn plants.

comfrey can definitely burn plants, ive seen that one for myself.

surely there are lots of microbes in the soil that arent under the direct 'control' of the plant's roots? organic amendments can get used up and leached out even in soil that has no plants in it.

VG

 

[Microbeman]

I am very confused by your post. Fish, and kelp are microbial foods for a compost tea. Leaving them out will most likely result in low microbial count. So are alfalfa meal, molasses, sucanat, etc..

If one uses fish emulsion (as mentioned) rather than fish hydrolysate, one can easily stifle microbial division and growth. I managed to do this in a double blind experiment conducted for a fertilizer company.

If one uses kelpmeal in ACT be prepared for the full microbial population to be somewhat delayed (IME), especially if using high grade or soluble kelp rather than regular feed grade.

Small amounts of alfalfa meal are good for promoting flagellates and fungi, as is sphagnum peatmoss.

We have been satisfied with getting full microbial populations in our activities for some time using only vermicompost and black strap molasses.

You can find more information on ACT here;

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#More_on_Compost_Tea_2013_