Advice for my Malawi breeding project

[Lammy]

I've got 12 Ace-Malawi regular and 11 OG Rascal's- Fire OG BX regular is on the way.

I could use any advice from anybody that has any experience as I don't really have any experience with pure sativas.

I want to cross Malawi * Fire OG. That may seem offensive to some people. the Malawi certainly doesn't need any improving. I would like to infuse the Malawi experience into the familiar / popular OG's. most importantly I want to: retain the smell of the OG, the stone of the Malawi, increase vigor / yield of the OG, keep the flowering time to 10wks or less and have good bag appeal. is this asking too much?

it should be noted that I have never smoked the Malawi. I've probably smoked some OG, but its not my thing.

the fire OG says it flowers for 60-70; I guess I could live with a cross that went a little bit longer if I had to. I can accept that the stone might/will not be quite as potent as the Malawi. which again I've never even tried. I just think it would be cool to mix exotic land race into the heavily inbred OG line

my end goal is not to make a bunch of seeds that meet my criteria but to find a single elite mother plant out of the F1's. I am planning on growing out both packs of beans to find parents. and to make/label every possible cross between the fire OG and the Malawi on my first run with both of those. then most likely only grow out the seeds from the best females after I harvested and had a chance to judge them.

I feel like I'm not really qualified to judge a male very well. and I'm willing to grow out the cross of every single male against the selected female(s). so maybe I should concentrate on a single cross of a male fire OG times the best female Malawi considering there should be less genetic diversity in the OG so the selection might be less important?

I've heard that different traits are inherited from the male or the female. I believe it said the smell comes from the male. does anyone think that that is true? if so then I should probably try to cross with the male OG.

I wanted to try to avoid storing pollen. so I'd like to be able to directly pollinate and I was wondering when the male Malawi's would be ready to release pollen? also what is the time window for pollinating a Malawi female?

If you are looking for good sativa mix without heavy body effect I'd try a hybrid between Vietnam Black, Thai and Haze. Malawi is very strong body effect but sometimes you can get very strong speedic effects without body heaviness crossing malawi with other pure sativas (for example Golden Tiger).

do you I think I could find a good body effect if I crossed the Malawi with an indica hybrid such as an OG?

how likely might it be, that I would get the speediness with the body effect?

would there be a possible benefit to using the feminized Malawi as well as regular Malawi to find a mother plant? and would it be worth the extra trouble? because I only have so many square feet to dedicate to this when I'm making seeds. but I'll have more room and time and resources to dedicate when I grow out the f1 seeds.

how much variation in these f1 seeds could I expect? okay I don't expect anybody to be a fortune teller or anything. I was hoping there would be enough variation in these f1's that I could find a single female that meets my criteria if i grow out 20-100 females. but I'm hoping they would not be as homogeneous as most seeds for sale. I would think with more homogeneity I would have to look through more seeds to find what I'm looking for?

I'm also wondering how important it would be to grow out seedlots from different parental combinations? originally I figured if I grew out some seeds from each of the seedlots. I could then try and figure which seedlots appeared the most promising. then I could do a second round focusing on the seed lots that seems the most promising. (NOT F2'S).

but that seems like a lot of work and I just wonder if it might be just as good. if I grow out a bunch of seeds from a male OG to the female Malawi with the best effect.

i welcome anybody's opinion on any of these million questions and topics that I brought up. for the pollination part of the breeding I'm trying to just keep it as simple as possible by just thinking it out thoroughly ahead of time and starting the plants at the right time.

congratulations if you made it this far I know I exceed the attention span of most stoners.

thank you
Lammy

 

[g0vnaa]

Mixing Malawi with some OG can`t be bad man.
Maybe select both Male and Female from the 2 strains and mix them up.
Fire OG x Malawi and Malawi x Fire OG.
Then grow lots of them side by side.
Shout be tons of nice phenos popping up.
I bet you will find your keepers.


Sounds like a really interesting project man.
There are lots of unexplored gene combinations.
Good luck and keep us updated for sure

 

[Lammy]

Mixing Malawi with some OG can`t be bad man.
Maybe select both Male and Female from the 2 strains and mix them up.
Fire OG x Malawi and Malawi x Fire OG.
Then grow lots of them side by side.
Shout be tons of nice phenos popping up.
I bet you will find your keepers.


Sounds like a really interesting project man.
There are lots of unexplored gene combinations.
Good luck and keep us updated for sure

thanks for the positive vibes!

 

[The Hatter]

I'm not a breeder, well other than a little pollen chucking, but I have done a lot of reading on the subject. From what I have read from other's who have done crosses with Malawi, it tends to be quite dominant in the offspring, particularly in the effects category. Just look at the various crosses Ace has done with the Malawi and you can see that crosses always have a lot of Malawi traits.

The Malawi that Ace has is often described as a very heavy and even paralyzing Sativa. Some reports I have seen even describe its effects as powerfully narcotic after a long cure or after the initial electric sativa head rush passes.

It should definitely make for an interesting cross. With a little luck you will bring down the flowering time by crossing it with the OG and I imagine it will improve the bud structure a bit although Malawi looks like it already has a pretty good bud structure for a pure Sativa.

As far as picking a male goes I'm no expert but when I do it I look for traits in the male that I would like to see in the offspring such as very rapid flowering, good structure, a good smell and nice fuzzy trich covered stems or other signs of frosting. As a general rule its not wise to cross all your females with the same male unless he is already a proven stud since you can degrade your entire seed line with a single bad male that way.

Best of luck with your project. Hopefully a real breeder will chime in with some better advice beyond the generic newbie info I have.

Oh, one last thing. You should give the seeds plenty of time to ripen, at least 5 weeks, and don't flush the plants you are seeding prior to harvest. The seeded mothers will also tend to like more nitrogen than normal, or at least that has been my experience.

 

[Lammy]

thanks for the advice hatter. your descriptions are making me think this is a really good idea.
I want to make something that will really give the hardcore OG smoker a new experience.

 

[Lammy]

As a general rule its not wise to cross all your females with the same male unless he is already a proven stud since you can degrade your entire seed line with a single bad male that way.

hatter. do you mean if I pollinated the females in such a way that I did not know which seeds came from which male?

although I've never done it before I was planning on pollinating specific branches on the females and marking them as to what male they came from. that way both parents would be known for any seeds.

 

[inquest]

Been sampling my own Malawi/indica cross. The high on mine is great! The malawi brought some sweetness to an otherwise skunky, funky bouquet. I pulled them before the trichs turned amber and they are not "stoney" at all. Which IME was a malawi trait.

Go for it! and good luck on your cross!

p.s. the cross had way more vigor than either parent.

 

[Lammy]

inquest.
I was curious as to about how many plants you grew out? ( just a few or quite a bit) and the amount of variation in the type of high. or just in general.

I'm wondering if I would need to select different parents to find a different type of high or possibly I'll be able to find different types of high inside of a sibling population.
it will probably change quite a bit if I take it to the amber stage, it will be a lot more Stoney?

from my personal smoke I like chopping down before the amber really sets in but this isn't for personal.

 

[Lammy]

if anyone can tell me when the male Malawi's will be ready to release pollen? of all my numerous ponderings this is probably the most important for me I just want to know how to schedule the fire OG's flowering cycle to the Malawi's.

it seems with the previous hybrids I've grown the males are ready to release about week 3. I would think it would be a lot later with the Malawi.

the OG says it flowers for 60 to 70 days and the Malawi flowers for 11 to 14 weeks.
maybe if I schedule them so that the 70 day harvest and a 12 week harvest would come on the same day? ( I'm not necessarily talking about harvesting them at 12 weeks if they're not ready)

 

[The Hatter]

hatter. do you mean if I pollinated the females in such a way that I did not know which seeds came from which male?

although I've never done it before I was planning on pollinating specific branches on the females and marking them as to what male they came from. that way both parents would be known for any seeds.

I simply meant that its a good idea to cross your females with at least a couple of different males rather than just one that looks good because until you test the male's offspring there is no way to know if he will is going to be a good dad or not.

I do the same thing you do which is pollinate a specific branch for each male and then I mark the branch with a bit of color coded tape to keep track of the parentage.

As for the flowering period of male Malawi I really don't have a good answer beyond the general rule that males tend to flower more quickly than the females of the same strain. My one Nep Jam male flowered and dropped pollen so fast that it was still in the room with the females when the first flower opened because I was taken completely by surprise. It was only in about week 3 of flower. (I flip the lights gradually so its hard to give an exact time period.)

 

[Lammy]

thanks hatter.
I have no faith in my ability to select a male. so I would definitely pollenate from multiple males.

but I guess I was hoping somebody would tell me that with F1's I don't need to grow out seeds from a bunch of males just a bunch of seeds MAY give me enough diversity to find what I want.

I guess I was just being lazy though. I guess if I don't put much effort into it I shouldn't expect a whole lot out of it. so I believe I will try to pollinate every single cross and keep each cross labeled and grow 10-20 females out of EACH of the most promising 5 to 10 seed batches. use that grow to select the best seed batch and then grow out 99 females from the selected batch.

man I'm getting tired just thinking about that. now I know why I just purchase seeds all the time. lol

 

[Lammy]

I am going to reread Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clark.

 

[The Hatter]

If you are just looking for a single elite mom from the F1s you shouldn't need to grow out that many seeds. Usually if a hybrid is made using solid genetics then growing out a couple dozen seeds should give you some nice keepers.

 

[botrytiscinerea]

It isnt as complicated as it first seems, but your stud will show itself.. and you need a completely separate space preferably very far away from your girls, have a space ready once they show their nuts; you should still collect/save pollen from some males (i use bindles) to test just in case but The One will usually present itself - or one will have traits better for one mom while one male has traits you want to mingle with another cut.

When it comes to males, ive seen in growing and harvesting males for some time now, that certain traits translate to female offspring and when you what to look for culling mass selection gets easier.. but mainly male flower structure, overall plant uniformity, and stalk scents are what i mainly look at, and trichs are never a bad thing but its more uncommon.
When it comes to stud flowers, compact nut clusters that look like drooping grapes opposed to ones all spaced out translate to dense compact bud in females; and nuts that open faster ive noticed make faster girls.

In my opinion with the malawi.. have a tropical dialed environment (at the last 2-4 weeks 10/14 lighting) and pick the most sativa leaning girl (most euphoric and racy despite structure and flowering time) just to breed with the OG and the most well rounded malawi girl just have as your keeper of that kind, but also breed with it the OG and or a backcross of what you make the first time around, to concentrate the traits of the malawi (like racy malawi X OGf1 X keeper malawi) though im sure youll have reached your goal by the first time but backcrossing helps if you feel you havent enough of what you want flavor or function wise.

 

[Azmodel]

I wanted to try to avoid storing pollen. so I'd like to be able to directly pollinate and I was wondering when the male Malawi's would be ready to release pollen? also what is the time window for pollinating a Malawi female?
Lammy

All I've head is male's matue faster, a week or 2 I'm guessing.

I've also wondered at the degredation rate of pollen. I'm apprehensive when the thought of freezing pollen comes to mind. But stored dry in a dark cool place in some paper for a couple weeks shoudnt be too bad right..?

And as far as when to pillinate your female. That is a great question. When is the best time?

I know you should let the seeds mature and cure in the bud. Letting them fall out so to speak, or harvesting while crumbling, not picking them.

I wonder if you could get some better results with your maturation rate's by letting the bottom buds you pollinated go a little longer i.e. far after amber..?

I'm interested to see how it goes, love all this discussion on males some great stuiff in here.

Good luck with your project Lammy

 

[Lammy]

All I've head is male's matue faster, a week or 2 I'm guessing.
I've also wondered at the degredation rate of pollen. I'm apprehensive when the thought of freezing pollen comes to mind. But stored dry in a dark cool place in some paper for a couple weeks shoudnt be too bad right..?

And as far as when to pillinate your female. That is a great question. When is the best time?

I know you should let the seeds mature and cure in the bud. Letting them fall out so to speak, or harvesting while crumbling, not picking them.

I wonder if you could get some better results with your maturation rate's by letting the bottom buds you pollinated go a little longer i.e. far after amber..?

I'm interested to see how it goes, love all this discussion on males some great stuiff in here.

Good luck with your project Lammy

I believe if you properly dry the pollen you can store it in the refrigerator for quite some time. perhaps a year or more. I don't have any confidence in my skills at that. that's why I would like to do a direct pollination. I do plan on trying to store some pollen. that way I could do a back cross.

I'm aiming for pollinating the female Malawi at 6 weeks into flower that way they should have about 6 weeks left.

I plan on it scrogging these plants. I plan to only pollinate tops. I do like the idea of letting them go a little bit longer. but if the seeds fall off on their own it's probably good. in the book marijuana botany, Robert Connell Clark gives a way of making a breathable bag you can put over the male pollen sacs to collect all of the pollen without letting it get contaminated. you can label that sack and then store in the refrigerator pull it out later and then slip it over a branch on your female to pollinate. if I can muster up the motivation that's what I'm going to try.

 

[Lammy]

hatter.
thanks for telling me what I wanna hear! I think I'm going to grow out a dozen or so beans from a few different parental combinations. if I'm happy with the cross and one of the parental combinations seems to really stand out then I'll probably grow out a few dozen of that cross.

botrytiscinerea, thank you for the solid advice. I guess once i identify a plant as male it doesn't get as good of light or taken care of as well and it doesn't look as beautiful as some of the pictures I've seen. I think I'm going to try to collect pollen from all the mails and then use the ones that I think are the best.

 

[OKD]

Cool project, Lammy! I'd like to lurk & learn! Lotsa good thinking that will be resolved in the weeks to come, I bet

 

[Lammy]

welcome OKD.
just have some patience because the Malawi is scheduled for harvest in January 2014. I still need to do the reverse math to figure out when I need to start the beans. maybe I can't even make it that soon

hopefully my Malawi Fire cross will be ready for release Christmas of 2014. with a few different select pheno's.

I'm thinking of going the somewhat lazy route and just crossing 2 or 3 male fire OG times the top 3 or so female Malawis. I figure the OG is so inbred it won't be as critical of a selection. because I figure they will all have approximately the same genes to pass on. for the mother Malawi's I'm going to have to select based on effect and probably based on the flowering time. I will wait and see how the different female Malawi turn out before I decide on exactly how many I'm breeding with.

 

[dubi]

Hi Lammy,

Im not familiarized with OG and her positive traits so i can not predict about the outcome of the cross, malawi has already a very heavy effect, mixed with an indica dominant line guess it will produce a very narcotic hybrid of short/moderate flowering time. I have heard that the OG elite clones have an uplifting indica effect and very nice taste, therefore this could improve the rudeness/wildness of the malawi.

The first and main tip that comes to my mind is to grow first both lines, learn what you like and what you dont like of them and lastly, start to think how would be the best blend of both.

It's quite easy to pollinate sativas and get a good number of seeds, and malawi is a good example. The time window for pollination is quite wide (8-10 weeks), malawi won't certainly reflower and reflower like a haze, but she still blooms in waves, producing new fresh fertile flowers in quite separate moments, making easier the pollination.

Pure indicas could be very easy and fast to grow but indicas doesnt produce so much quantity of flowers and their window time for pollination is very short.

Good luck with the project and let us know if you have any doubt during the process.