Everybody a breeder ?

[offthehook]

Like I said, on 12/12 from seed they can be rather usefull still.

'Grower beware' sticker certainly not a bad idea.

I'm still wondering who was the asshole giving me a thumbs down on my previous post and for what reason?

The White Russian male I used had pollinated 5 different strains, and their offspring behaved all the same as I described earlyer.

 

[stickshift]

No, I'm not saying that.

Once a hermy, always a hermy.

What I am saying is that you should definatly get rid of those 'early hermies', but that the good thing is that all other females will not turn into hermies later on. (my peticular batches, several hundereds of plants, were 100% consistent in that when no false light was comming in)
Normally if you get a hermy phrone batch of seeds, there will be no telling when the bananas will pop up. > Usually half way bloom or near the end, wich will fuck up your whole crop ofcourse.

The good thing about my hermies was that they all would show already in the first two weeks of flowering > so you have ample time to notice them and kick them out before wasting more precious time on them.

Seeds like this will be most effective when starting from seed straight on 12/12.

I'm curious on these early intersex forms, where they lower down on the nodes ie first few branches at the node? are you assuming by doing this that the remaining females will not hermie later on but those def would of?

 

[offthehook]

I'm curious on these early intersex forms, where they lower down on the nodes ie first few branches? are you assuming by doing this that the remaining females will not hermie later on but those def would of?

Yes & yes.

Some would have a tendency to freak even later on when false light was allowed tho.^^ ( but never when in total dark)

I'd say you get like 75% females, and like 25% of these females would be phrone to freak under influence of false light.
Remainder would be 12.5 % males, 12.5% early hermies.

NB. In my batches. ^^ ( I can't know the genetic make up of others ppls plants ofc.)

Plants I bred him out to where: Mindbender, Californian Orange, Cannabia, White Russian, Bubbelgum.

 

[gloryoskie]

Started my first ever S1. CS method, dosing 3 chosen ladies.

Glad to see this thread open again!

 

[Tom Hill]

Yes, thank you mods for reopening. I know it's heated, but there are only so many ways to tell somebody they are full of crap. Thank you for seeing the bigger picture as it were, for bridging these gaps makes the best case for this site to exist. Next let's explore Homebrew420's clear and valid (from a point of view) thoughts, as many have gone to that planet with me, so let's go ahead and explore it together.

 

[Raco]

Gracias a ti tio
You are the driving force behind this thread and your input and efforts are highly valued by many

However, this thread gave us (mods) a headache
Foucault´s Pendulum is comparable LOL

Everyone: please, DO keep civil, learn and share...hold your tongue

Next time I wont hesitate... this thread is going to be heavily moderated by me and others

No hard feelings at all

this is a great thread IMVHO

 

[Tom Hill]

Homebrew420, no offence taken, and you don't sound like a dick, it's a valid question one which many of you may have to and do answer for yourself sometimes. No, my job as a breeder is not much dictated much by customer wants. To say not at all may be a stretch, for art (still hate that word lol) in breeding does indeed bring in the realm of taste, and who I am in regards to cannabis, will indeed be reflected in my product.

But here's the thing, I understand a thing or two about genetics, I understand that the pure lines I have maintained are worth something and worth effort. The average customer does not understand why it is so very important to maintain divergent germplasm as I do. So I am torn in my eyes between what I know to be right and a bunch of rah rah rah from a peanut gallery that doesn't know really what they say at all, and to hell with what is right for cannabis just gimee gimee now.

So capitan, what do you do in that scenario? Do you side with what you know to be right for cannabis, or do you take the money and run? Even as I go into the exploration of elite cuts, I will still hold dear the thought of preservation and separation. I know that most all Trainwreck hybrids for example will grow better and mask intersex traits better, but I will leave that to my peers, because I want it separated, because this is what I believe to be best for cannabis. If you are interested in remnant seed from such endeavours then I'll be here. If you seek heterosis, then let me introduce you to my friend Chimera et al.

Look at what we have now, mass confusion, where is breeding concepts, where are the selection methods we didn't read off the damn cereal box, have you fucking heard what breeders tell you they're doing and what their goals are? Do you believe a damn word of it? Or does it sound like a bunch of bullshit to you too? We need to take the time I think to all get up to speed as a community and try to get on the same page regarding what's really happening, otherwise this unbelievable ignorant direction will prevail. For me, this is what this thread is about.

 

[Tom Hill]

I understand Raco, I do, do you understand, that this is a pretty heavy topic, and that we are all big boys here? You guys do what it is that you think is best for cannabis, none of could possibly ask for anything more...,.

 

[Raco]

I understand Raco, I do, do you understand, that this is a pretty heavy topic, and that we are all big boys here? You guys do what it is that you think is best for cannabis, none of could possibly ask for anything more...,.

This thread is reminiscent of best old Overgrow threads 10 years + ago IMO and I´m following it with great interest

 

[Tonygreen]

Tom I spoke with you briefly once about single seed descent method.
As per the reading you suggested. I know at the time you said it was perhaps not best suited for cannabis.

But it seems if I simply self 2 separate lines 3 or 4 times without regard to any selection at all, then cross the two final results it seems like a viable method of producing a true f1, and a method that may be more suited for small breeders at a disadvantage already by having limited numbers to work with.

"The main objectives of single seed descent method is to rapidly advantage the generation of crosses and at the end of method a random sample of homozygous genotype is obtained."

To me it seems like I would be better of making selections when I actually have some homozygous material to work with. The blind selfing might seem counter productive, but I am thinking a homozygous baseline is the best place to start, especially for a new breeder/chucker.

So is a random homogynous genotype better for me as a beginner to work with than a mixed up poly-hybrid?

 

[Tom Hill]

Single seed decent (SSD). My Friend Chimera spoke of this in Jorge's book and I am not sure whether or not this is where you learned of the method. Many folk misunderstood him (imo) and took ssd to be the only definition of repeated selfing. The fact is, ssd does employ repeated selfing, but so does many other other selection methods more suitable to cannabis. SSD is mostly employed when you have very few seeds per plant, like say coconuts, or even wheat. But with cannabis, the number of seed is such that phenotypic evaluation among many individuals is not wisely skipped or passed over, dig? Realistically, if these plants all selfed themselves automatically, then ssd would be an option maybe worth pursuing, being that they don't, and furthermore they are not coconuts, there are more appropriate methods to be considered, imo.

Where you are absolutely correct (imo) is to seek out some homozygosity before attempting to evaluate lines as a whole etc, I just feel there are more appropriate ways/methods to get there when dealing with this particular species.

 

[Tonygreen]

I read it in Selection methods in plant breeding.

I thought it would be good for me since I have very few plants to work with.
If I make my own homogenous line of whatever it seems like a better start then picking out of a 10 pack... With small plant numbers I could do it that way in a years time and get two lines selfed 4-5 times without too much trouble. Without getting in trouble going ove my numbers...

 

[Raco]

This unrefined finger pressed resin powder picked from the bottom of the can wasn´t that bad after all...no rolling papers left (remember?) 4:30 AM in the middle of nowhere LOL





I cant wait to read new Clarke´s book

 

[Tom Hill]

Tony you should have also read in the same book when and why a breeder might use that technique. It is used when there are few seeds, not few plants. I can guarantee you the best 5 of 100 will do better than 5 of 5. Unless you can seek through 100 of 100 selfed (X).05 seed, then the method fails maths wise in comparison to others.

 

[Tom Hill]

hehe Raco, that reminds me of surf trips to Mexico in my youth, thank you kuya (brother)

 

[Tom Hill]

Anyway this is exactly what we are doing, is revisiting the very same topics of the old. It is surreal and extremely unfortunate that the conversations never were allowed to absolve themselves of their own damn fruition back then. I am quite sure well meaning mods were involved then just as they are now, but consider actually doing something worthwhile for cannabis' sake and stand aside for a moment, or speak, and just maybe, we'll get somewhere finally for a damn change. Because poking fingers from behind the curtain about crap you do not even understand is just as useless today as it was back then.

 

[xmobotx]

well a little spirited discussion can draw a crowd too

seems like giving the thread a rest from time to time is a good strategy as well though

 

[Nunsacred]

The assumption that inbreeding is a good start is like saying 'take your biggest risk first' which I don't agree with.

When you self a plant or backcross an individual you are enriching a lot of traits and mutations which you can't detect, along with your chosen ones.
Simply put, this is a very bad start.

If you instead work with a small pool of parents, and avoid re-using any individual where possible, you can select and inbreed without the same risk of dud factors being 100% prevalent along with your chosen ones.

Single seed descent is an appalling method to use.
It is essentially the most crude and cheap form of accelerated breeding and it's inappropriate to passage crop generations through unrealistic environments/stresses in order to select parents. This is so obvious.

Furthermore I don't believe that you can reasonably judge what a phenotype passes on in a hybrid cross, by looking at selfed progeny.
It might give you a hint but that's rubbish compared to making the cross instead and testing the progeny you are otherwise guessing about.

As I said before sometimes art/intuition is the same thing as science, particularly when it's really about the ways our brains work - the instinctive 'feel' for a plant as a parent is often based on observation of many diverse traits which add up to an evaluation of it being a good bet.
The best examples of this scientific-but-seemingly-artistic processing is often shown by smell.
We say something 'smells right' or 'smells wrong'.
Experiment shows humans can pick their most diverse sexual partners by sniffing sweaty gym kit and choosing their favourite. That's some pretty damn intricate processing of complex molecules going on almost completely unconsciously.
Complex processing posing as a 'like'.
Science as art.

I'd go so far as to say if a breeder works with a line for a few years
They may well be able to 'smell' or get a subconscious 'feel' for their chosen transcriptomes.

If you don't know what a transcriptome is, look it up.
It's what we need to understand and design marker kits for, before we can claim to make any scientific breeding selection to beat our own noses.

 

[DamnUglyDogE]

Oh the whole front of my brain hurts.. Just from the last 2 pages of reading.. (in a good way)

Great thread.. Great read... Great contributions. ..

And I can almost understand whats being said/shared... Almost...lol

Keep sharing the wealth.. Some of us in the crowd (really) need the knowledge thats being accumulated here...

Peace...




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[Jbomber79]

Tom- how long have you been doing your thing?