The New & Improved [ROLS MEGATHREAD].

[MrSterling]

I've been doing some research and reading and wanted to amend something the coot said regarding Greensand. Coot always corrects people regarding the name, that it's actually glauconite. I've been doing some reading and it does seem greensand is not just glauconite, but glauconite mixed with a variety of ancient sea life deposits.

 

[BlueJayWay]

i've seen 'texas' greensand, i think 'jersey' greensand also.....maybe that just refers to origin.....i think the 'texas' greensand i saw was actually brown........i dunno, i had 5 lb box from the nursery 2 years ago, it's in the mix......somewhere in the 1000gal or so of ROLS

i've only read it being 'ancient sea floor deposits'

 

[dogfishheadie]

sharing is caring right? gogo greensand google...say that three times fast.

Greensand is a naturally occurring mineral mined from ocean deposits from a sedimentary rock known as "Glauconite". It is often an olive-green colored sandstone rock found in layers in many sedimentary rock formations.

Origin of Greensand

Greensand forms in anoxic (without oxygen) marine environments that are rich in organic detritus and low in sedimentary inputs. Some greensands contain marine fossils (i.e. New Jersey Greensand). Greensand has been found in deposits all over the world.

The greenish color comes from the mineral glauconite and iron potassium silicate that weathers and breaks down releasing the stored minerals. The color may range from a dark greenish gray, green-black to blue-green depending on the minerals and water content. It often weathers easily and forms nodules that have been oxidized with iron bearing minerals that has a reddish brown or rust color.

The major chemical description is ((K,Na)(Fe+3, Al, Mg)2(Si,Al)4O10(OH)2)

General chemical information:

Iron (Fe) 12-19%
Potassium (K) 5-7%
Silicon (Si) 25.0%
Oxygen (O) 45%
Magnesium (Mg) 2-3 %
Aluminum (Al) 1.9 %
Sodium (Na) 0.27%
Hydrogen (H) 0.47%
Over 30 other trace minerals and many micronutrients.

Types of Greensand

Glauconite is the name given to a group of naturally occurring iron rich silica minerals that may be composed of pellets or grains.

When glauconite is mined the upper layers that have weathered and become oxidized and minerals are released. These sometimes form pyrite a iron sulfide (FeS2) when oxygen is absent. In the deeper layers or reduced zone pyrite crystals often form. Other minerals found by magnetic separation are Zn, Ni, Cu, and many trace minerals and micronutrients.

The potassium (K) is often found in potassium saturated layers of mica, vermiculite and montmorillonite. Greensand is often considered a clay mineral due to the presence of chlorite, kaolinite, vermiculite, and other clay minerals that may be present.

Greensand is a very heavy mineral with a density of approximately 90 pounds per cubic foot (over 1 ton per cubic yard). The minerals are normally released slowly over time but occur much faster in organic rich soils full of beneficial microbes (microbes produce organic acids as they break down organic matter which facilitates the release of the minerals for plant absorption).

The pH of greensand varies from slightly acidic to slightly alkaline depending on the source and has little effect on soils.

Sources of Greensand

Greensand deposits are found all over the world with the largest and most numerous deposits in the United States and in Great Britain. The original deposits used in Horticulture were from the New Jersey area. In recent years several deposits have been found scattered from East Texas near Lufkin to West of San Antonio and in Arkansas.

Uses of Greensand

Greensand has been used for over 100 years as a natural source of slow release fertilizer and soil conditioner. The slow release of potash and phosphate does not burn plants and the minerals improve the moisture holding properties of soil. The best deposits of greensand contain at least 90% of the mineral glauconite and less than 2-3% clay minerals.

The cation exchange capacities (CEC) of soils were found to increase as the weathering of the greensand increased. The mineral glauconite is used as a water softener and it very beneficial to fight chlorosis in iron deficient soils.

Greensand often has the consistency of sand but is able to absorb 10 times more moisture which makes it a good amendment for use in agriculture and horticulture for many soils types. Greensand does not burn plants and helps for beneficial microbes to grow in the soil. It also has been found to be a good conditioner to help loosen heavy and tight soils and help bind loose soils.

Greensand is often used in compost piles to increase the nutrient content and diversity of beneficial microbes.

Recommended application is 2-4 pounds of greensand per 100 square feet or 1 ton per acre. For potting soils 5-20 pounds per cubic yard can be beneficial.

A field test by Rutgers University in a sandy loam soil with greensand applied in the row at the time of planting, found that the application of greensand increased the yield of potatoes by 16%.

The benefits of greensand, largely unexplained by scientific research are far more than a laboratory analysis would indicate. However numerous greenhouse and field studies have shown significant improvement in the growth of plants. Other studies have shown that the use of greensand improves the taste, color, nutritional value, the health of plants and the health of soils.

References:

"Chemical Weathering of Glauconite", G. Abudelgawad, A. L. Page, and L. Lund, Soil Science of America Proceedings, Vol. 39, 1975, p. 567-571

"A study of Glauconite", H. Schneider, Journal of Geology, No. 35, p. 289-310

"Chemical and Mineralogical Properties of Glauconite Soil as Related to Potassium Depletion", M. El-Amamy, A. Page, and G. Abudelgawad, Soil Science of America Proceedings, Vol. 46, 1982, p. 426-430

"Pyrite and Trace Minerals in Glauconitic Parent Materials of Maryland", M. Rabenhorst and D. Fanning, Soil Science of America Proceedings, Vol. 53, 1989, p. 1791-1997

"Chemical Composition and Genesis of Glauconite and Celadonite", American Mineralogist, Vol. 26, p. 683-708

"Micaceous Vermiculite, Glauconite, and Mixed Layer Kaolinite-Montmorillonite Examination by Ultramicrotomy and High resolution Microscopy", S. Lee, M. Jackson and J. Brown, Soil Science of America Proceedings, Vol. 39, 1975, p. 793-800

"Crystalline and Amorphous Soil Minerals of the Mississippi Coastal Terrace", L. Demumbrum, Soil Science of America Proceedings, 1960, p. 185-189

"Studies of Glauconite and Celandonite", USGS PP 614-F, 17 pp.

"Greensand", Wikipedia Encyclopedia, 2007

"Interpretation of Mossbauer Spectra of Nontronite, Celandonite and Glauconite", Clays and Clay Minerals, Vol. 35, p. 363-372

"Alternative Soil Amendments, ATTRA Publication #IP054

"Glauconite in Early Tertiary sediments of Gulf Coastal Province", E.G. Wermund, AAPG Bulletin; October 1961, vol. 45, no. 10, p. 1667-1696

"Notes on Greensand Deposits of the United States", USGS Bulletin 660 "Stages of Glauconite formation in Modern Forminiferal Sediments", A. Ejlmann, N. Hulings, and E. Glover, Journal of Sedimentary Research, March 1963, Vol. 33, No.1, p. 87-96

"Soils Formed In Marine Sediments Containing Glauconite", USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service

"Mineralogical and Compositional Variation of Glauconite", Geological Society of America, 2004 Annual Meeting, Paper No. 89-2

this part...

The best deposits of greensand contain at least 90% of the mineral glauconite and less than 2-3% clay minerals.

I guess would answer our question then? in any event, the stuff looks sexy. what should my application rate be for about 30 gallons of soil? it's been cooking for three weeks now, okay to add in while it's still setting up?


also, found what looks to be a good use of the coconut water i bought but forgot the recipe. cheers cootz :friends:

Not in an AACT but I make a 'tea' using 1 cup of coconut water, 1/4 cup aloe vera extract and 1 oz. BioAg pure Fulvic acid and fill with water to make 1 gallon and that is applied every week through veg and a couple of weeks into the flower cycle.

CC

 

[MileHighGuy]

I've had great results with the CalSul at my local feed store. $9 for 50lbs of prilled gypsum.

Also, today, I found pond sealer sodium bentonite for $6 a 50lb bag.

 

[MrSterling]

I think in my last mix I was using 1 cup of Jersey Greensand for every cubic foot of soil. Works down to 2T per gallon I think.

 

[Cann]

MHG i think you want calcium bentonite not sodium bentonite....maybe I am wrong...

sodium just sounds like bad news in soil

 

[Microbeman]

Calcium bentonite is good to get but very difficult to find. Sodium bentonite is beneficial to the soil, it just swells up with water. It is not like huge proportions are being used so the amount of Na is minor and will not negatively impact microbes. It radically boosts CEC.

 

[TwistedPistils]

TACOS are OKAYee
View Image

MMMMMmmmmm drippy tacos.... don't let those juices get away!

 

[MileHighGuy]

Calcium bentonite is good to get but very difficult to find. Sodium bentonite is beneficial to the soil, it just swells up with water. It is not like huge proportions are being used so the amount of Na is minor and will not negatively impact microbes. It radically boosts CEC.

Thanks for this info. Was thinking that way, but was planning on asking before I mixed it up.

I'll be using a very small amount with my gypsum.

 

[John Deere]

MMMMMmmmmm drippy tacos.... don't let those juices get away!

 

[xmobotx]

i have always used greensand but now i m in favor of exercising caution w/ it

i think it is the primary example of an amendment which should be composted/worm eaten before use on account of the main issue is solubility

secondary issue is its texture/it is essentially a fine sand & when nurseries/growers emphasize sand in a potting mix they are referencing course sand

fine sand compacts your medium

after all that however, it is a diverse source {which we like}

 

[vonforne]

look if your posts are gonna include attacks every few sentences you should not complain if they start getting deleted. you ask what you did, that is exactly it, your attacking other posters in this thread continuously and calling them out. how can you expect that situation to grow well?

your post has been replaced.

And yes the trolls posts were removed from this thread and it returned to normal.

 

[Cann]

MM thanks for that clarification! where would one find calcium bentonite?

 

[FunTimesIndeed]

I've got a half bag of jersey greensand and haven't added it for the last couple batches of soil i've made, although I still add a bit to the wormbin just to have a variety of sizes in the rock dusts being fed-----strictly mechanical reasons. Using a mix of volcanic rock dusts and crab shell meal, i feel greensand doesn't have much to add and i'm a little concerned about an overkill of magnesium.

 

[MrSterling]

Nooooo way does greensand compact soils. It lightens clays and binds sands. Treat it like any other rock dust. It's immediate role is the way it alters soil texture.

 

[xmobotx]

i'll go w/ U then sterling; haven't had any probz myself but there are those who say 'ixnay on greensand' ~just kinda buy'n in to the general wisdom of ROLS guys w/ more experience than me i guess

like i say i have always used it & it is in the nutrient-cycled compost i m currently running in my recycled pots

 

[vonforne]

I never stated that greensand was no good but rather ineffective in the short term. If a new grower uses it in his soil and is not recycling then it is a waste of time and money as the greensand takes a very long period of time to break down and become effective. And it was added to soils as a source of K and if you are not recycling your soil then there are better sources to just add K to the soil.

In the long term if one is recycling it is an effective part of diversity to add it if it is found locally which is one thing I stress.....find what you can locally and use it. Like my source of coral calcium etc.

 

[MrSterling]

For those of us on the east coast Jersey Greensand is my go to suggestion. Basalt is mostly unavailable on this coast, and greensand is plentiful and cheap. I think much of the naysaying came from coots understanding of it as a branded form of glauconite.

 

[RicoT]

On the note of bentonite..

Been looking for sources locally, and while there's a pottery place selling it a couple hours away for about .78/lb for 50#.. Not including shipping..

Many searches have led me to all natural(organic) cat litter as an easily found source for it.. And a much smaller quantity for those that don't need 50#..

Here's a couple of interesting links regarding it(found by google:kitty litter ingredients)
http://www.instructables.com/id/KITTY-LITTER-FACIAL-MASK/
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Cat-Litter.html

And this one was a little off-putting...
http://www.care2.com/greenliving/the-dangers-of-clumping-cat-litter.html



Pretty cool,
Sepiolite.. found in some litters..
-Mined from only a few sources worldwide, sepiolite is a type of clay that absorbs 2.5 times its weight in water - that's more absorbent than any other known mineral, or any manmade material.
-In practical terms, that equals out to 20 grams (0.64 oz) having a total internal surface area equivalent to that of a football field.
"Today, no synthetic clay surpasses natural sepiolite"

http://www.gizmag.com/synthetic-sepiolite-kitty-litter/19214/

 

[vonforne]

For those of us on the east coast Jersey Greensand is my go to suggestion. Basalt is mostly unavailable on this coast, and greensand is plentiful and cheap. I think much of the naysaying came from coots understanding of it as a branded form of glauconite.

Greensand is widely marketed by Espoma and available at every Lowes.

Basalt is unavailable in the Midwest but Azomite is not and this is what I use as a replacement. But Ebay and Amazon is a good place to search for someone closer to your area to cut shipping costs. Not to buy it from there but to find the company and locate something nearer you for a local retail source.