Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[MEnSouRdeeZ]

"senor coconut", hello and welcome if you're new..
i think you should go with the 315w elite agro for a number of reasons... dimmable for your space and newer tech with slightly more usable light for your plants watt for watt.. but something to remember also.. since you are running vertical/coliseum.. you are not reflecting I. e. doubling the light... so I would think you could use more light in the area.. you definitely would use more per square area than someone using traditional lighting method... my 2c

 

[tenthirty]

In my experience so far.....
2 Elite Agros replaced 1k of various led and HPS with no loss in yield,
with better health and quality in my pretty much dialed sog.

 

[GreenThumb14]

In my experience so far.....
2 Elite Agros replaced 1k of various led and HPS with no loss in yield,
with better health and quality in my pretty much dialed sog.

Yea, but you're in the Matrix, Neo.

 

[Illumination]

I see quite a bit more blue in the 400 retro compared to the 860w Allstart.

Therefore, the Allstart has more yellow/red overall. The SPD graphs are relative intensity which means in the Allstart there is relatively quite a bit more yellow-red wavelengths making it a better flowering lamp.

Just because the 400w retro shows that it has red up to 700nm and beyond does not make it a better choice for the spectrum.

Overall, there is a higher quantity of the 630-650nm region that is good for flowering in the Allstart even though the spectrum doesn't go much further than 655nm, it's the overall spectral balance that leans on the red side that makes it the better choice.

The 330w Allstart lamps probably have the same SPD as the 860w.

This works in theory, but a person would have to do a side by side test to confirm although with the higher amount of blue in the old Retro white I would definitely say that it is the poorer choice.

I will be flowering with the 860w Allstart in the near future and I can compare the way the plants flower as I have the same strain also flowering under the 400w Retro white at the moment.

Yes, I know the fact that the lamp is twice the power it's going to grow bigger buds, but it's the WAY the bud grows that I will make the determination of which spectrum is better for flowering.

When I compare the plant growing right now under the 400w retro white to the same plant growing under the 1000w HPS, the bud under the retro white is much leafier/airier/not as dense as the HPS bud. This is photomorphology at it's best. The extra heavy blue light in the retro white is making the buds grow leafier/airier and also larger, but not nearly as dense as the red heavy lamp.

Oh the 860 watt has a to die for spectrum. The 330 all start spectrum is not like the 860 as the link with it shows. I agree the 860 spectrum superior to the retro but retro superior to the 330...but the 330 will definately do well

 

[senor coconut]

Hi,
thanks to all for the replies
in my case vertical and cooltube were chosen mainly for security and practical reasons... with a small 150 watter the glass remain cold to the touch so leaves are free to touch it without getting burned.. yes, with pyrex glass you will lose about 10% (if I remember right) of the lamp output but also blocks a lot of unwanted IR and permit to get the lamp closer to the canopy...
Practical because I have a very limited cabinet height to deal with and I like mostly Sativa hybrids... with a classic horizontal setup I think I would have more problems to manage the stretch of the plants...


Returning to Elite Agro CMHs, I read somewhere that running in a dimmed state for more than 25% of the time is not good for both means lumens and life, and also that lamp could be dimmed only 10 minutes later from the initial ignition start, do you confirm that?
Sorry for the dumb questions but I have no experience with dimming, I have always run bulbs at full power
A last question... how much noisy and hot could get these ballasts? I know HPS electronic ballasts run cooler and are almost silent versus magnetic ones, it's the same with these dedicated electronics for CMHs from Philips and other manifactures you listed before or there are differences?
Thanks in advance

 

[rives]

Senor, I've read similar about dimming and the effects from it, but it appeared to be restricted to the 210w lamp. I have also read that dimming does not impact the lamp life or spectrum. Dunno.

With the Philips ballast, at least, it goes to full brightness for the first 10 minutes of operation.

From the Philips CDM Elite Design Guide - "The MasterColorCDM Elite MW 315W system is designed to be able to dim the lamp using a 0–10V interface. The system will always operate at nominal power during the first 10 minutes of operation, after which it can be dimmed. The lowest dimming level is 50% of nominal power. Dimming the lamp has no impact on lifetime of the system. Light technical properties of the dimmed lamp will not be according to the nominal specifications specified in this document. Upon switching to nominal power, the lamp will again perform as specified.

The MasterColor CDM Elite MW 210W system is similarly dimmable to 50%. Dimming for more than 25% of the time is not recommended as this will reduce the maintained (mean) lumens over life."

 

[MEnSouRdeeZ]

View Image<---860w SPD

Oh the 860 watt has a to die for spectrum. The 330 all start spectrum is not like the 860 as the link with it shows. I agree the 860 spectrum superior to the retro but retro superior to the 330...but the 330 will definately do well

I am no more an expert on spds than anyone else...but I have to stick by the CMH on this one, too much missing 650nm-700nm output for the 860w to say that it is more effective than the retro for me just yet...also appears to have more 535-560nm...which is good light of course...but just dont need much of it imo...
the 315w elite agro on the other hand

 

[greenwithenvy]

How can this not be Amazing?

http://dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_900_spec.pdf
http://dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_330_spec.pdf

 

[tenthirty]

I just have to question the fullness/smoothness of the spectrum graphs.

Here is a graph of the Elite Agro.


Note the peaks.
Each peak represents an element or the combination of elements being excited into a plasma.
IMHO, it would be quite a trick to get such a smooth spectrum from a plasma technology lamp.
Leds on the other hand..........

 

[rives]

I just have to question the fullness/smoothness of the spectrum graphs.

^Nailed it. I think that what they are doing is using the graphs generated by the hand-held instrumentation that they were using in the videos rather than the manufacturer's SPD charts. The less-sophisticated instrumentation probably rounds off the peaks, resulting in a graph that looks a great deal more like sunshine than they should.

The 330 lamp graph looks more like the Philips 930 to me rather than the Agro.

 

[Fonzarelli]

^Nailed it. I think that what they are doing is using the graphs generated by the hand-held instrumentation that they were using in the videos rather than the manufacturer's SPD charts. The less-sophisticated instrumentation probably rounds off the peaks, resulting in a graph that looks a great deal more like sunshine than they should.

The 330 lamp graph looks more like the Philips 930 to me rather than the Agro.

You are correct. DNA is using an "outline" of the SPD. Their instrumentation is most likely used in photography or something to give you an idea of the color that is present in a particular light source.

Only a blackbody light source would emit such a large "full-coverage" type of spectrum like the Sun for instance.

I have a hard time believing that 900w TruSun spectrum. I think if they were to use the proper type of spectral analyzing equipment it would read otherwise.

Unfortunately, I think companies can get away with alteration of their spectrum charts a little when advertising a lamp.

Also, I don't see how it would be possible for this company to have an exact copy of the Philips lamp and have offical rights to it. Therefore, it must be the 860w Allstart they are using. Perhaps driving the lamp at a higher wattage would increase the amount of red output they are claiming. Who knows.

 

[greenwithenvy]

What dont you believe about this? He takes a eye hortilux with the same meter in this video watch the spectrum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowe6wfwtGg

And in this video he take the same meter and measures the 900 and the sun. Whats not to believe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvKQ69NYldY

 

[rives]

What dont you believe about this? He takes a eye hortilux with the same meter in this video watch the spectrum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowe6wfwtGg

And in this video he take the same meter and measures the 900 and the sun. Whats not to believe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvKQ69NYldY

If you take a look at the spectrum at 3:08 on the first video and compare it to the EYE SPD chart in the bulletin linked below, you will see what we are talking about. HID lamps tend to have extremely jagged spectrum peaks, and the meter that they are using is showing a much smoother profile. Even if the meter itself is capable of accurately sensing the light source, I would doubt that a 320 x 240 LCD screen is capable of accurately reproducing it.


http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/TechnicalBulletins/lu1000bhtlen.pdf

 

[tenthirty]

Definitely not laboratory grade equipment.
Yup, looks 930ish to me too!

Rhetorical question.
How many bulbs would you have to buy to get Philips to make you a custom mix?
How many tries would it take to get it close enough?

 

[greenwithenvy]

Would you agree that the test he did was the same with both bulbs? If it were lab grade equipment would the 900 not be the better spectrum? I don't know anything about this light or spectrums for that matter, but its the same meter with both bulbs.

 

[tenthirty]

I can't speculate on what the absolute spectrum is........
But, I'm willing to make some assumptions.
The bulbs that they are selling are probably standard Philips bulbs maybe re-branded.
That is not a bad thing!!!

Philips needs to realize that there is a market here, and be willing to put forth research, time, and money.
The Elite Agro bulb is sumwhat of an anomaly according to my current understanding of how and why it ever got made.
As far as I'm concerned, either of the DNA bulb lines should work and work well.
As far as efficiency goes, I believe the 315w series of lamps produce the best heat to light ratio per watt, with a damn good spectrum to boot.

Ya, a 315 is not a 1k, but......

This porridge is too hot.
The 1k hps was too hot and didn't fit my rectangle very will.

This porridge is too cold.
The leds worked great, but it will take a shit load of them to do a good job and it would be damn expensive and complex.

This porridge is just right.
2 315w seem to do a great job of covering my little 3x6 area.
If I want to change spectrum, a hundred bucks a bulb and there are a number of choices of spectrum/peak locations.
Try doing that with leds. Neither cheap nor easy!

 

[rives]

Would you agree that the test he did was the same with both bulbs? If it were lab grade equipment would the 900 not be the better spectrum? I don't know anything about this light or spectrums for that matter, but its the same meter with both bulbs.

Yes, it looked like a very similar testing protocol and the same meter, and I've no doubt that the 900 has a better spectrum than the Hortilux. However, for people that are used to looking at SPD charts, the smoothing makes the lamp look far better than it can possibly be. HID's just don't put out that smooth of a spectrum.

 

[Fonzarelli]

It's simple, only a blackbody light source would have a smooth peak outline. CMH is not a blackbody lightsource. Neither are MH or HPS.

If DNA really wanted to be honest and show how great their lamps are, why wouldn't they invest in the RIGHT type of instrumentation to give an accurate measurement?

 

[Fonzarelli]

And in this video he take the same meter and measures the 900 and the sun. Whats not to believe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvKQ69NYldY

The "spectrum" they produced with their meter on the HPS Hortilux confirms what we are saying here. Compare that spectrum to Hortilux's and any other HPS spectrum that exists and it proves that their meter is not taking the correct measurement.

Here is what the Hortilux HPS spectrum looks like when the correct instrumentation is used.

here is the spectrum of the 860w Allstart CMH when run at 1000w with magnetic ballast m47.

DNA is using the 860w Allstart and the 330w Allstart and relabeling it as their own lamps.

I don't have a problem with a company using the Philips lamp and relabeling it to catch the horticulturist consumer's eye. What I have a problem with is when a company states that THEY developed the lamp. It's dishonest.

 

[MEnSouRdeeZ]

good exchange happening here...ten thirty..getting philips to cater a bulb to your needs is not going to happen, however there are some decent manufacturers in China that will communicate with you and even tailor to your needs. Check Alibaba... I found one supplier thru alibaba that I went back and forth with for over a year making a UVB producing halide...they now sell it as a pet lamp though I was never satisfied with it...cant really beat arcadias for their coverage and efficiency... though one day maybe a UV-B led... I found a manufacturer of UV-B LED's in South Korea... they do not advertise them and call them "research LED's"....reason being... price per 1w unit was $1,500.00USD...

I agree that the more evenly a lamp produces colors...with less spikes in output... the better the plants' Photosystems I&II can utilize.... in our case esp, [that the universities and their PPF overlook,] I really think it (a smooth SPD) produces a fuller terpenoid profile and more complex stone... I would consider keeping my retro whites around! Not so easily can we jump to newer tech bulbs without taking into consideration that smooth output of the retro white... but Im tired of the noisy magnetic ballast that loses that extra 10%+ of power etc... I think the 942 elite agro is worth the money and the switch despite the noted (slight) "spikey-ness" in sPD... at least for a flower chamber. For me (maybe not for all) it means the end of HPS altogether. I would really like to add in a few 100w 6000lm 655nm peak LEDs to go with