Everybody a breeder ?

[Weird]

fascinating article on The Effects of Climate Change on Medicinal and Aromatic Plant from The Journal of the American Botanical Council

http://cms.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/issue81/article3379.html

i read some interesting things like plants seek their preferred climate and that many 3rd world countries rely on medicinal plants as a primary source of healthcare among other things are mentioned in there.

I am not using it to draw any conclusions or make any points, it is just an amazing read I thought people might enjoy.

 

[clovethee]

fascinating article on The Effects of Climate Change on Medicinal and Aromatic Plant from The Journal of the American Botanical Council

http://cms.herbalgram.org/herbalgram/issue81/article3379.html

i read some interesting things like plants seek their preferred climate and that many 3rd world countries rely on medicinal plants as a primary source of healthcare among other things are mentioned in there.

I am not using it to draw any conclusions or make any points, it is just an amazing read I thought people might enjoy.

Hey yeah that is an interesting article, I'm glad you posted the link.

 

[symbiote420]

Nice read!

In my mind ...everyone's a breeder!
If said person makes a strain, he or she bred it, right?! Now what separates the hobbyist from the more experienced/professionals is knowledge. (some hobbyist have it too!) I like to spend my $$ with peeps who have a lot of experience and a good chunk of knowledge!

 

[xmobotx]

say I am selecting "best of" from a hearty strain (i want to preserve its natural phenotype variations) that on average produces a 8' plant and plant sizes range typically from 6' -10'and I put them indoors even in great numbers but the environment only supports a 4' plant wont this make it real difficult to distinguish difference based on that trait?

Does selection on that trait still become a factor if it will not be bred for any other environment?

i think the grower/breeder's knowledge of how they may have accommodated plants which tended to exceed the grow space will still give significant insight

for instance; a micro-grower adapts plants to the space using veg time, pruning, and training

if; in spite of these efforts in concert, certain individuals are running into the lights anyway; the grower/breeder knows these express the height pheno AND; the degree of effort they may have made to control that expression

 

[Scottish Research]

IE if I told you that it was weird's soapbox would the 5 guys been repping me all thread believe me? If he told you it was mine would the 5 guys been repping him all thread believe him? As glands on our nugs, so are the days of our lives.

I got some glands on my nugs dude that sweat alot...

If I was in Cali or back home in CO, I would be breeding my ass off. I got tons of ideas based on great combinations, but I'm stuck in the deep south where one plant can get you time without bail opportunities.

R.Fortune

 

[Morcheeba*]

just b/c a female produced seeds doesnt make you a breeder any more that fixing a plumbing leak makes you a plumber.

and as all this played out it never felt like anything was pre-planned on Tom and Wierd's part but anything is possible as much Canna-Drama there is.

 

[xmobotx]

exactly

i built my own house ~but am not a carpenter
wired and plumbed it too but am neither an electrician nor a plumber

the house isnt going to fall down and the wiring and plumbing do work

but; a pro would look @ it and laugh @ me {in fact; one has <from the framing/roofing aspect}

i also do some work on my own cars ~but; again, not a mechanic

AND; if i wanted to do any of that stuff for some one else?

I would defo have to 'pick up a book' {really i'd have to go to school}

 

[bombadil.360]

can't believe some people took the comment about the exchange having been premeditated seriously hehehehehe....

 

[stickshift]

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on our definition of "quality."

as far withstanding the test of time.....you are aware the current discussion is about how abysmally shitty the current cannabis breeding situation is? clearly "standing the test of time" does not carry anywhere near the same meaning here as it would if the world was full of excellent cannabis strains.



lol. because incrossing it is a waste of fucking time? it's already been incrossed so damn much and in so many crazy ways, which is why literally 80% of the plants in a given pack of DJ Short seeds are absolute shit.

No, because a plants legacy is what it passes on, it passes on quality and hence improves in the out cross.

how many people do you see out there releasing dj short F2s? nobody? i wonder why that is?

well since you were gifted your f2s, ask the person who gifted you them. And ask mosca!! or why DP still release his stock and many more....

i mean you are aware of the story of how all his strains started, right? he got some a tiny bit of bagseed decades back, obviously from some afghan line which had already been bred over generations for the traits in question. dj short the pollen chucker then sought to multiply that seed by inbreeding and backcrossing to infinity and beyond, and in the process basically raped the chromosome of those plants to death. that shaky foundation has been the basis for ALL "his" strains he has created....ALL of which give us those same crazy mutants in ridiculously high proportion to "good" plants.

dj short is a one trick pony, a pollen chucker extraordinaire. the fact that people actually consider him a good breeder is nothing more than a testament to widespread ignorance.


I guess i'm ignorant then

to rescue the few good genes from their sad, mutated lineage, by combining them with another line that is not 98% garbage?

dont take my word for it, im just a guy growing out a pack of f13 f2s right now, literally 90% of which are horribly mutated. its not the grow environment so dont be trying to blame the grower as usual. 100% of all my other plants are happy and healthy. with these, ugly goes straight to the bone. yeah im sure ill eventually find a good keeper out of one of these 60+ seeds. and yeah, you bet im gonna outcross it. and then i'll spend years inbreeding that line for many generations trying to get out all the fucked up mutants. such is life.
if the inbreeding caused the mutations why would you have them in the outcross? also you didn't even grow the originals so how would you know what enviro they like?

^^^^^

 

[Tom Hill]

Please don't take it as a detraction or an attack on value. I won't even bring this topic into breeder value. I found a book that poses the question and poses the answers to the questions I asked. You can't read it unless you want to spend the dough. This title seems the most straight forward title correlating to it.

Annicchiarico, P. (2002) Genotype x Environment Interactions: Challenges and Opportunities for Plant Breeding and Cultivar Recommendations..

I would love to understand the challenges and opportunities in regards to cannabis.breeding

Reptile cultivars replicate ecosystems and exploit cues. Some species need specific environmental replications to breed. The indoor grower putting plants on a 12/12 schedule is an manipulating an environmental cue. How does our control over these cues effect our ability to express or suppress pehnotypes/chemotypes in selection

here is an example of what might cause challenge breeders, the regression of phenotype expression indoors and I am curious of the ramification

say I am selecting "best of" from a hearty strain (i want to preserve its natural phenotype variations) that on average produces a 8' plant and plant sizes range typically from 6' -10'and I put them indoors even in great numbers but the environment only supports a 4' plant wont this make it real difficult to distinguish difference based on that trait?

Does selection on that trait still become a factor if it will not be bred for any other environment?

If i am the said breeder and those seeds are JUST for me and all i want to do is have something that likes the environment I provided I ASSUME no big issue

BUT

If I am breeding for others and someone wants seed for outdoors and I am going by the numbers YET haven't gotten the phenotypes to express right so I can select based on them will I have the same success as someone who grows in an environment that the phenotypes in the example i gave above (8' plant average 6'-10') range express more readily?

I think environment in this example could shoot the breeder in the foot REGARDLESS of plant numbers, because the trait the person buying the seed may desire the breeder could not see expressed thus could not select based on it

or am I incorrect in my way of thinking?

I am sure glad to hear that it's not a detraction or attack on value (anymore) because that's exactly how I felt you were attempting to use the argument earlier.

Anyway search and read up on terms such as penetrance, expressivity, thresholds etc. The ramifications will vary from trait to trait, line to line, and individual to individual. Some traits within some individuals/lines will express themselves in a broad range of environments, and some will not. Instead of some kind of plus in the hack column, it is an area to be taken advantage of by knowledgeable breeders.

An example might be if we were breeding for purple but could only grow X amount of plants to completion each cycle. Well we can sprout 30X plants in trays, then manipulate the environment to aid in expression of auxiliary pigmentation. Eg, we can place freshly sprouted trays in the refrigerator over night for a week or so, and narrow down our prospects by only growing the purple stemmed individuals out to completion, thereby greatly increasing our odds of success.-T

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.syngenta.com/global/corp...f/publications/our-industry-2013-syngenta.pdf

pages 62-63

 

[xmobotx]

penetrance, expressivity, thresholds etc.

so will you help me see if i understand this?

let's say in a pairing where 1 plant expresses a trait and the other is homozygous and does not have the trait {how about 'dense buds'}

50% of the offspring could have dense buds {and the other 50% are heterozygous for dense buds}

penetrance would be how many of those 50% actually express the trait?

expressivity would be how dense the buds were?

 

[Tonygreen]

Tray in the fridge, loving it.

Whats the difference between a farmer a gardener and a grower?

 

[GeorgeWBush]

some interesting side conversations going on in here no doubt,nothing that is earth shattering rather founded in common sense.that said this particular thread kind of rubs me the wrong way,maybe it was just the 1st post.Anyone who say's "I mean no disrespect" means disrespect.but anywho you can talk all the fancy science talk you want and it won't change the fact that humans are really no closer to fully understanding the cannabis plant than they were 1,000 years ago.so as far as breeding pick plants you like and combine them to see what comes up you can predict with moderate accuracy the kinds of expressions you will get.so everybody a breeder.yea pretty much.short answer.and there is nothing wrong with that.to say there is is just founded in petty jealousy.canna breeding is not a practicle science its real world common sense.integrity is another thing all together that has nothing to do with cannabis or breeding and shouldn't be lumped in with them.Just cause a regular guy has a great female plant and crosses it to a male,collects seeds and sells them is not a sign of no integrity. or just cause a guy works a particular plant for years and notes everything is not a sign of upmost integrity.the common denominator is both guys made seeds and at the end of the day.breeding IS making seeds.

 

[Tom Hill]

If it rubs you the wrong way it's probably because some of you desperately want to believe that it's no big deal to continue on hacking away without any knowledge of what it is that you are doing. But it is a big deal, it's a big deal because cannabis gets the short end of the stick in that scenario.

 

[blue green]

I don't get it?

How does cannabis get 'the bad end of the stick' if hobbyists play around with pollen making their own crosses?

 

[Tom Hill]

While it is true that the more folks working with cannabis, the better (imo). It holds doubly true that the more of those folks that are knowledgable, the better. So don't walk the other way or make excuses/arguments against the book end of your educations if you please, in doing so you are only doing a disservice to the plant. Best case scenario is that folks have all the tools necessary to increase the odds of their own crosses kicking ass. -Tom

 

[Weird]

Based on what I have been reading on genetics, it seems that breeding has and will continue to take at least two courses in time to come. One hand scientists will use genetic science to aid them in growing very specific chemical phenotypes, and on the other hand there will be people breeding to preserve natural cannabis lines. And while I appreciate the desire to preserve genetic diversity, as a med patient, I do not think one has more virtue than the other, but rather relative applications.

The indoor cultivator, by proxy of environmental control has more control over expressing traits through the use of environmental controls but sacrifices the dynamics of a natural environment. Some benefits and some detriments could be assumed. Giving a plant its preferred environment will ensure health secondary metabolite production which indoors could allow for accentuation of chemical phenotype.

So the indoor environment seems best suited for searching chemical phenotypes and not environmentally effected phenotypes.

This is not to say that outdoors it is converse, breeding in the natural dynamics of the outdoor environment are the baseline for proper phenotype variation, but in light of its production specifically for secondary metabolites we can't change the direction that need/desire is driving mankind, nor because of the nature of its medicinal properties should it be.

in a simple analogy: if we are down breeding tigers to house cats is it wrong if people want house cats? whose responsibility is it to maintain and preserve genetic diversity?

here is a very interesting article on the "Baldwin effect"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2007.00203.x/full

it discusses the ramifications of environment on breeding but do not let this distract you from what Tom is saying.

We should as a community SHOULD care about preservation of genetic diversity and it cannot be accomplished if we don't breed in proper environments using proper techniques and strategies.

I think it is safe to say that what Tom is doing is breeding at the highest possible level, by incorporating science as a naturalist and a preservationist, which require an higher levels of experience, education, resource and effort. If we desire to grow the plants we cherish outdoors in various environments these considerations become even more important.

Is the focus on preserving or maintaining diversity or medicinal properties civic duty? perhaps not but at least we know what we stand to lose if when know what we are doing can cause that loss and I believe that this is Tom's greatest message, that people don't realize they are down breeding cannabis and they are promoting their work under the assumption it has not been

I am making assumptions on Tom's behalf so please keep that in mind, I don't want to misrepresent him just share how I interpret his message.

 

[blue green]

A little bit dramatic......

 

[N. Accumbens]

High everyone!

I wanted to pop in and thank each of you whom sent kind wishes our way.

Tom, youve been great and thank you for blessing me with your seed and your kind words.

Im sure well hear more of my cbd projects in the future but for today Ill be concentrating on the main "breeding" project at hand.

Take care everyone and enjoy the lively conversation... seems pretty fruitful - if nothing else.

Pz.
Nacc