Everybody a breeder ?

[Weird]

Your perception is biased on your experiences. Your perception is biased towards marketing.

Breeders market with pedigree hype. GS Cookies gets hyped up online. Then thousands of people want a bean from this line because they can't get the cut where ever they are at. The issue is, they haven't grown the cut they don't really know what it's like. The seeds are a polyhybrid segregating mess. They find a plant they like to smoke. They are then pleased and happy with the breeder. However, the breeder did a horrible job of getting the GSC traits into the seedline that they sold. It doesn't end up mattering because the people who purchased it are mostly ignorant to what those traits are and they are simply happy finding a plant they like to consume.

The market is sold on pedigree hype, not quality of releases.

Agreed but offering consumer education, especially in a market with rising demand, will not fix the problem. It will simply prolong the fix. You can't control the consumer, you can't control breeding without integrity but you can market effectively by setting an expectation, and you can grow a reputation by meeting it.

You will not fix any of this by saying I do x,y,z and everyone else should do the same regardless of the accuracy of the statement. Unfortunately it is not proven effective, marketing and customer service are needed to bridge that gap.

Marketing and customer service are the necessary if not cumbersome byproduct of legal commercialization in a capitalist market.

In hippy speak this is what happens when mankind makes the sacred herb a whore of babylon.

 

[pip313]

Dj's crosses can be fine, sure. I grew blue sattelite 2.2 which as I remember had that same male in it and was fine but that male was a grandparent or great grandparent not the dad. Bs2.2 is good stuff I wont say it isn't.

Its just a shame that to get good dj stuff you have to buy something not really him. The irony is my bs2.2 seeds were freebies from the dj order.

I guess this all comes down to the fact that we want consistancy from a plant from breedees that cant provide it. Corn hybridization proves consistant plants are possible but a black market doesnt allow the scale of breeding and testing needed.

Its like that guy just said if you buy seeds of what should be a clone only your not likely to get a plant exactly like the clone. If you have never seen the clone you dont really know what to look for. Even if its a real seed strain not a clone into seed your xxx wont be like my xxx.

If the breeder cant gaurentee anything why not pollen chuck? No one can gaurentee anything anyways with no gaurentee whats the justification for the high price?

 

[Infinitesimal]

Well TH did that and then people used it to throw shit his way.....

hmm... I always thought it was pretty well understood that if one wanted the better expressions of lets say haze (since I think that is what you are referring to) they need to pop 40 seeds to have a fair chance... without just relying on luck of the draw... I don't know why anyone would give him shit when he let them no what can be expected...

the thing I have seen people argue with him about was his statement about how every strain available and the 5% thing... and that is just from people misunderstanding that the top 5% aren't the only keepers worth growing in ones garden but instead are the absolute best expressions within the line and should be the ones utilized for breeding.

if the breeder gives anyone an accurate description of the average phenotypes and not just the most highly selected ones then there's nothing for people to bitch about other than simply misunderstanding breeding and confusing it with growing/selecting clone mothers.

I think most of the people giving tom "shit" over this probably invested their money in a pack of this and a pack of that etc etc... thinking that they will be able to just select a typical "keeper" from single packs of a few different strains and then find a male that has the right leaf shape or is the most vigorous (cause you know those are the most important traits) then someways down the road become some professional breeder... so they are just pissed that someone who knows what they are talking about is raining on their parade when saying that their "keepers" likely aren't the best the lines have to offer and that unless they are working with larger numbers and weighing odds... they are not really doing much real breeding...

that said... there are a few small groups of dudes (that I respect) who work together collectively to find true keepers, source cuttings and spread hard to find genetics...

 

[Weird]

Each breeder has their own objective which is why EACH breeder needs to set expectations. If DJ honestly represents his work what makes him worse or better than anyone else if he is meeting his own requirements and being honest about the representation?

The value people put in the search for chemo type versus phenotype comes in to play as well. Not saying one should put said cart before said horse but what you consider to be the cart and what you consider to be the horse are subjective,

 

[Tom Hill]

Infinitesimal thank you finally someone touched on it, twice now. To the average customer, the value of that pack of seeds lies in the mean phenotypic value, which will vary greatly from offering to offering based on the genes of the parents and the method utilized. The easiest way to get that average to rise, is via the traditional single-cross hybrid route.

 

[Weird]

^^^ word, still do lol.

And I also just think it's probably easier to try to educate the customer in threads like this than try to spank all the shyster breeders out there into a more honest living.

absolutely

Weird would be a tough case in that regard too, after all, his 1 on 1's are every bit as good as anything being put out where a more scientific method was applied.

I never said that, I said the results met my expectations regardless. I didn't have a choice back then it was the only means to an end since I was breeding out the bag seed (mostly I suspect s1's or crosses from poor growing practice or gene instability). I also experienced very high keeper ratios with other strains by myself and with other breeder strains.

Part of the gap is bridged by may ability to bring the best out of a plant because of my ability to control and or manipulate environmental cues.

 

[FOE20]

hmm... I always thought it was pretty well understood that if one wanted the better expressions of lets say haze (since I think that is what you are referring to) they need to pop 40 seeds to have a fair chance... without just relying on luck of the draw... I don't know why anyone would give him shit when he let them no what can be expected...

the thing I have seen people argue with him about was his statement about how every strain available and the 5% thing... and that is just from people misunderstanding that the top 5% aren't the only keepers worth growing in ones garden but instead are the absolute best expressions within the line and should be the ones utilized for breeding.

if the breeder gives anyone an accurate description of the average phenotypes and not just the most highly selected ones then there's nothing for people to bitch about other than simply misunderstanding breeding and confusing it with growing/selecting clone mothers.

I think most of the people giving tom "shit" over this probably invested their money in a pack of this and a pack of that etc etc... thinking that they will be able to just select a typical "keeper" from single packs of a few different strains and then find a male that has the right leaf shape or is the most vigorous (cause you know those are the most important traits) then someways down the road become some professional breeder... so they are just pissed that someone who knows what they are talking about is raining on their parade when saying that their "keepers" likely aren't the best the lines have to offer and that unless they are working with larger numbers and weighing odds... they are not really doing much real breeding...

that said... there are a few small groups of dudes (that I respect) who work together collectively to find true keepers, source cuttings and spread hard to find genetics...

some direct no bs talking right there...great post...
and with the no# of poss phenoms in SSH?...heh...I wouldn't even try that myself...heheh...but I highly respect the line no matter...
All the older true lines really......older the better for me still...and it seems to keep the young guns in check to..cause they dont have a clue on hoow t grow them for the most part....not as easy as that get rich quick cut....cause none of the cats I know care about gettin rich, unless its rich in proper Herb!...hehe....amen!
keep rollin
FOE20

 

[pip313]

hmm... I always thought it was pretty well understood that if one wanted the better expressions of lets say haze (since I think that is what you are referring to) they need to pop 40 seeds to have a fair chance... without just relying on luck of the draw... I don't know why anyone would give him shit when he let them no what can be expected...

the thing I have seen people argue with him about was his statement about how every strain available and the 5% thing... and that is just from people misunderstanding that the top 5% aren't the only keepers worth growing in ones garden but instead are the absolute best expressions within the line and should be the ones utilized for breeding.

if the breeder gives anyone an accurate description of the average phenotypes and not just the most highly selected ones then there's nothing for people to bitch about other than simply misunderstanding breeding and confusing it with growing/selecting clone mothers.

I think most of the people giving tom "shit" over this probably invested their money in a pack of this and a pack of that etc etc... thinking that they will be able to just select a typical "keeper" from single packs of a few different strains and then find a male that has the right leaf shape or is the most vigorous (cause you know those are the most important traits) then someways down the road become some professional breeder... so they are just pissed that someone who knows what they are talking about is raining on their parade when saying that their "keepers" likely aren't the best the lines have to offer and that unless they are working with larger numbers and weighing odds... they are not really doing much real breeding...

that said... there are a few small groups of dudes (that I respect) who work together collectively to find true keepers, source cuttings and spread hard to find genetics...

The problem is in some cases seed discriptions tell you to look for the 5% plant. Yet no offer on quantity. One thing i will say about tom hill is $100 a pack is reasonable. Thanks for not having $175 seed packs.

Example:

Haze is a four-way hybrid of some of the finest narrow-leaf tropicals that the world has ever known (Mexico, Colombia, S. India, Thailand), so the legend goes.

A long flowering plant that gives wispy yields of the highest quality. This line is out of Sam Skunkmans stock by way of Positronics seeds ("Original Haze") circa mid 1990's.
It does not breed true for its intoxicating properties, however the best examples (approx 5%) are electrifyingly cerebral.
For decades, words have utterly failed to fully capture the intensity of effect that a good example of Haze can give - it is absolutely in a league of its own and must be experienced

 

[Weird]

The mistake everyone is doing is this: you are taking a multidimensional topic and breaking it down to two dimensions thus causing arguments that will never be fully resolved.

This is how a business would solve this. They work problem solution models because they are most effective.

The problem is X

The proposed solution is Y.

So arguing points in logical matters to prove a point only work if A) you propose a solution B) your solution pans out in equations where the problem is X, that is all scenarios

All I have been doing is taking peoples logic and putting it in different scenarios to see if the logic holds up.

If you take this as an attack on the validity on the logic itself that is on you and in a real business boardroom with a VP this is how it is done so please if you want to bring it to the next level and be a consummate professional rethink what I have been arguing here.

 

[GanjaRebelSeeds]

I have started typing a response to post in this thread 3 or 4 times,only to spend 30 minutes typing a ton of my thoughts and then realize what a waste of time it is. Then I erase it and move on with my day.
It would be different if we were all sitting in a room together passing joints and trying to have this conversation.

I know my intentions. I'm no master breeder,or scientist,but,I have a lot more insight and knowledge to share than the average patient who walks into a dispensary to ask for help about what strain they should get for their garden and personal needs. Cannabis is what the universe wants me to do with my life,that has never been a question for me for over 15 of my not that many years.

As much as you or I think we already know,sometime you just have to empty your cup.
That is all..

 

[Infinitesimal]

Infinitesimal thank you finally someone touched on it, twice now. To the average customer, the value of that pack of seeds lies in the mean phenotypic value, which will vary greatly from offering to offering based on the genes of the parents and the method utilized. The easiest way to get that average to rise, is via the traditional single-cross hybrid route.

yup yup... I think this is where everyone is getting huffy puffy saying "WTF Tom, now you say I have to buy 50 seeds to find a keeper... why tom why... WHYYYYYY!?!?!?"

and that is 'cause the average customer has no real desire to breed professionally but instead just find and grow plants they like... so having the absolute best expression isn't as mush a priority and they can find plants they are happy with from most ten packs... it's the wannabe breeders that are pissed... you have ruined their whole plans for the future

my lines are still really new but they are all showing a very high average quality (mean value)... pretty much every expression is a potential "keeper" in someones garden... but there are definitely ones who reach above the average and are unique and amazingly pleasant... as well as a small amount that show some minor undesirable traits (two sour purple have spit a couple nanners on people ... eh? it happens) but the quality is still there...

how well does the mean value rise when using half sib pollinations?

 

[Mate Dave]

Tom just talks his version of the bollocks because you little no nothings perpetuate the lies endlessly.

Another good post weird.

I think that is exactly what I did, but it don't work that way either because there is no freedom of speech or thoughts because it all relates back to art in Tom's view.

I still havent seen anything conclusive of what he or others say about the proposed breeding methods. I am simply asking them to prove this in documented research which they can't.

Any time you want me to tear you another one Tom or anyone for that matter just ask!

 

[GanjaRebelSeeds]

I have started typing a response to post in this thread 3 or 4 times,only to spend 30 minutes typing a ton of my thoughts and then realize what a waste of time it is. Then I erase it and move on with my day.
It would be different if we were all sitting in a room together passing joints and trying to have this conversation.

I know my intentions. I'm no master breeder,or scientist,but,I have a lot more insight and knowledge to share than the average patient who walks into a dispensary to ask for help about what strain they should get for their garden and personal needs. Cannabis is what the universe wants me to do with my life,that has never been a question for me for over 15 of my not that many years.

As much as you or I think we already know,sometime you just have to empty your cup.
That is all..

I'm gonna quote and repost this because there were like 3 other posts while I was typing and this ended up on the bottom of the page.
Cheers to enjoying some special organic cannabis on a lazy Saturday afternoon.

 

[Tom Hill]

Here you go Pip from that other thread,

Lets say I have a clone of a strain who's seed is no longer for sale, lets call it galaxy god bud.

I do not wish to use a male as I do not have access to a ggb male.

If i self it, grow the seeds, find plants with the wanted traits, and self those plants will the resulting plants loose any vigor? Will I be able to start identifying which traits are breeding true? Can i go to generation 10 of selfing without causing new problems? I have 5 traits I care about, in order of importance, suppressing a late flowering hermie tendency, keeping the funky rotten lemon smell, shortening internode length, keeping the hardness of buds, and maybe going for bigger buds (surprisingly last on my list )

I do not care if it takes years to do this, I need to put this into seed so I dont have to worry about loosing it which I almost have over the many years ive had it. And if i seed it I should seed the best possible version I can.

It's probably one of the most asked questions on the site and though there are many ways to get there, I do not feel it has ever been successfully answered to any great degree. So I'll offer a more detailed explanation/example, of a modification on line selection/pedigree method here that was briefly outlined earlier.

First, "vigor" mostly revolves around heterozygosity, let's just call that Aa. This is true from everything to growth characteristics, to the adaptive ability of a particular line when we introduce it into new environments. Aa survives better than AA or aa in new environments because Aa is still flexible - able to morph into many things yet, AA and aa are true breeding, and are not flexible anymore until you outcross.

The trick (science really ), is to seek differing genotypes that give rise to the same phenotype (then blend them together) in creating a lasting, flexible line that will readily adapt and thrive in numerous environments.

On to an example:

Self the individual, and grow out at least 100 progeny. Select (self) the top 5% (5 individuals) of those.

So those 5 individuals have now given rise to 5 families, let's call them red, gold, back, green, and blue I guess . Grow out these 5 families in 5 separate plots. These plots should contain at least 30 individuals each (some math folk me included, but not all) feel that 30 is a number where statistics begin to have some real value.

Repeat, that is to say, select (self) the top 5 individuals (phenotypically speaking) from those plots without regard to which plot they came from. The blue family didn't produce anything so it's canned right away. That leaves us with the red, gold, back and green families.

As this goes on (rinse and repeat), yes, we will begin to see which of these families are more homozygous than others (true breeding), by about the S3 this will become readily apparent.

We might decide by the time we get to observing the S3 families that the black and gold families are the most outstanding, nearly 50% of their progenies are very similar to their outstanding (respective) parents. We can also assume that they do not have the exact same genes (differing genotypes), though they are very similar in phenotype.

So we can then back up and cross the black s2 mom, to the gold s2 mom. In doing so, we have restored some vigor (and fitness, adaptive ability etc) to the end product (we'll get some Aa from this cross), while still retaining the outstanding properties of the line.

So that is one way we can go about it, while minimizing the effects of intensive inbreeding. -Tom

 

[Tom Hill]

how well does the mean value rise when using half sib pollinations?

Half-sib selection is one of the lessor in regards to efficiency of methods. Coming in behind line selection, and full-sib selection, in that order. To really take advantage of the most efficient methods, one must be able to embrace reversal techniques. -T

 

[Infinitesimal]

The problem is in some cases seed discriptions tell you to look for the 5% plant. Yet no offer on quantity. One thing i will say about tom hill is $100 a pack is reasonable. Thanks for not having $175 seed packs.

Example:

Haze is a four-way hybrid of some of the finest narrow-leaf tropicals that the world has ever known (Mexico, Colombia, S. India, Thailand), so the legend goes.

A long flowering plant that gives wispy yields of the highest quality. This line is out of Sam Skunkmans stock by way of Positronics seeds ("Original Haze") circa mid 1990's.
It does not breed true for its intoxicating properties, however the best examples (approx 5%) are electrifyingly cerebral.
For decades, words have utterly failed to fully capture the intensity of effect that a good example of Haze can give - it is absolutely in a league of its own and must be experienced

he is not quite telling you to look for the 5% as much... he actually is telling you that there is variation, not all plants have the near psychedelic haze high... and that only a small minority will be very very special plants that get you very very high!

he is telling you that if you want the very best expression of haze (or any strain for that matter) and not just the average haze plant you should grow at least 40 seeds to improve your odds...

as far as price... again, $400 - $800 is not a lot to spend on a truly special, rare, plant that you can clone and keep for your whole life! (I once had a cut I found from seed, that I am sure an outdoor commercial grower here in cali would have payed 10K for... sounds crazy but... that plant yielded huge huge huge, grew easy, grew tough and resistant to pests mold/mildew, it produced indoor quality bud that had bag appeal, smell, taste, potent medicating effects, a high ceiling and low tolerance build up... nearly GRAIL quality... I miss that bitch)



now if his description was something like this, below, then you would have a point....



Haze is a four-way hybrid of some of the finest narrow-leaf tropicals that the world has ever known (Mexico, Colombia, S. India, Thailand), so the legend goes.

A long flowering plant that gives wispy yields of the highest quality. This line is out of Sam Skunkmans stock by way of Positronics seeds ("Original Haze") circa mid 1990's and are electrifyingly cerebral.
For decades, words have utterly failed to fully capture the intensity of effect that a good example of Haze can give - it is absolutely in a league of its own and must be experienced


see the way I changed it, makes it read like the haze line as a whole (genotype) is of the highest quality with electrifyingly cerebral effects and that the best expression is what is to be expected... and this is the type of thing shady breeders do... Tom at least is forward and lets you know you need to buy X amount in order to expect X results.

I recently seen a breeder that has a couple new strains using a very very hyped mother plant... the phenos he was showing off weren't expressing many, if any, traits of the mother strain... then he begins to show a couple "new" phenos that he found and claim to lean heavily to the mother side and he has already pollinated them to make another outcross... the shady part was that these new "phenos" looked an awful lot like they were just pics of the original mother from when it was seeded with the very seeds he was hawking... and posing the mother as a possible pheno to be found.... that is SHAMEFUL

 

[Infinitesimal]

Half-sib selection is one of the lessor in regards to efficiency of methods. Coming in behind line selection, and full-sib selection, in that order. To really take advantage of the most efficient methods, one must be able to embrace reversal techniques. -T

I had planned on some STS... funny when I first got into this... I Intuitionally figured that reversal would be the way to go in order to preserve certain expressions I found and cross varieties by actually being able to observe the floral traits that a pollen donor posses... then as I learned some, read more and listened to other peoples opinions I bought into the whole fem = herms fem =unstable variation etc etc


I wanna make sure I am on the same page with what you mean...


so wait, are you saying that... half-sib (half the females all the males right?) is less efficient than line selection (I'm not thinking very straight atm I am running on very little sleep and I'm a little spacey right now , what exactly do you mean by line selection?) which is less efficient than full-sib (full-sib = open pollination, all males all females?)

 

[DemonPigeon]

I think the biggest challenges can demonstrated through the occurence of very visual things, I bought seeds from hybrids with a "black" strain, with only a single photo of a plant (black) shown on the seed site I bought it through (not the original seed producer's site); the plants didn't go black for me.

If it was a kind of smell or a kind of high I had bought the seeds for then psychosematic effects may have stepped in and made me believe that the plant possesd the character I'd purchased it for.
It'd take some kind of double blind test and probably a sample of the original plant to actually measure the smell of the new plant and see if it did smell right.

I've seen people swear blind their GSC smells of baking cookies... who seem quite affronted when told they should be smelling mint, smell is hugely subjective and psychologically influenced, so is the high, "iDosing" became a popular way to get high after people said it worekd in newspaper scare stories, surely what we're seeing with a lot of strain is belief that a plant can smell of baking cookies, that cannabis can be stronger than LSD, that maybe, maybe, the emporer IS wearing clothes...

and going back to my plant actually the one I kept out of my 12 seeds has many good properties, I'm sure eventually I'll get a black plant and in the mean time I can enjoy some quality weed and not delude myself into thinking that it's any colour than it is.

 

[DemonPigeon]

Extra example, for a joke a friend sprayed peppermint in another friend's grow tent. when we asked him didn't his tent smell a bit odd he was convinced this was the "lemon" smell the seed pack promised him. Lemon and peppermint aren't too similar to my nose...

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Line breeding is selfing

Full-sib is mating brothers and sisters.

Half-sib is mating half-brothers/sisters. NLxBB and NLxSk.