Everybody a breeder ?

[Tom Hill]

Weird if Pip313 and others (bombadil.360, zachrock, you, etc) do not understand the reality of how the business (nor the actual act of breeding) works then the value you place there is misplaced no matter what you learned about the basic tenants of marketing. It's seems the science is too complicated for some to grasp, and there is no way to simplify it in a way that the consumer "readily understands", try as we may. One guy thinks he'll sell seed for what I pay someone to help me water etc, another wants deep discounts for bulk but doesn't realize the end result is unauthorized retailers undercutting folk you are comfortable working with etc, I guess you guys have never been to Spain lol. Some of these ideas sound/look good on paper but reality gets in the way.

The ratio of phenotypic value (as a grower) vs genotypic value (as a breeder) will vary greatly depending on the line in question, ie, unanswerable.

A customers perception is as important as his understanding allows for. Some of you guys are pissed off because that drill works like shit, never mind you're trying to use it as a fucking hammer.

 

[stickshift]

the idea behind finding a 'keeper' is to take cuttings from this 'keeper' and flower them for stash production, not to breed it.

you can breed with it, sure, but it is not a guarantee that its offspring will carry on the characteristics of said 'keeper'.

I agree with Pip, if you need to pop 100 seeds to find 5 keepers, seed providers should sell 100 seed packs at a very reasonable price, no more than 150 usd if you were to ask me.

just the risk involved of popping those 100 seeds to look for 5 potential keepers, justifies a low tag price.

peace

hold on a sec, you said earlier:

to replicate 'gold', as you put it, all it takes is to use the same parents to produce seed, not much else.

odd isn't it that you aren't finding gold? so now you just want keepers ie something good to clone off..... yet when someone points out how to best get these, you say you just need 2 parents and they will produce said 'gold' now it seems this isn't the case! though it is often the case when 2 highly homozygous (usually unrelated to exploit heterosis, in a trad F1 hybrid) lines are put together...

oh and if the said keeper is not passing on the genes to it's progeny, it isn't something to be bred with imo - "The value of a breeding parent is shown in it's progeny".

so going back to earlier you actually would prefer seeds that represent a said clone as best it can?

I do fully agree with you on the price of seeds, many are overpriced for the like of work and quality that is contained within them.

I do laugh at people slagging of Dj short and the price of his seeds, years of work and it's stood the test of time, and what it passes on is quality... yes there are problems with mutants and intersexual expression, that said his stock one of the most out crossed resource, why is that?

Hell why did Rez want to cross to Dj's clones??????

 

[bombadil.360]

Weird if Pip313 and others (bombadil.360, you) do not understand the reality of how the business (nor the actual act of breeding) works then the value you place there is misplaced no matter what you learned about the basic tenants of marketing. It's seems the science is too complicated for some to grasp, and there is no way to simplify it in a way that the consumer "readily understands", try as we may. One guy thinks he'll sell seed for what I pay someone to help me water etc, another wants deep discounts for bulk but doesn't realize the end result is unauthorized retailers undercutting folk you are comfortable working with etc, I guess you guys have never been to Spain lol. Some of these ideas sound/look good on paper but reality gets in the way.

The ratio of phenotypic value (as a grower) vs genotypic value (as a breeder) will vary greatly depending on the line in question, ie, unanswerable.

A customers perception is as important as his understanding allows for. Some of you guys are pissed off because that drill works like shit, never mind you're trying to use it as a fucking hammer.

I'm not interested in what marketing people use to sell their warez, nor am I down-playing new ways to breed cannabis; what I've been doing is presenting the facts that regardless of high-tech breeding, that such is still subject to many of the limitation of more traditional ways to breed.

what I'm basically saying, which I've already clearly stated, is that high-tech does not grant some sort of mystical super ability that only blessed minds are able to understand while the rest of us commoners remain dumbfounded.

nor does it mean that since we have new technologies that help us breed, that any work done in more traditional ways is rendered useless.

 

[Weird]

Weird if Pip313 and others (bombadil.360, you) do not understand the reality of how the business (nor the actual act of breeding) works then the value you place there is misplaced no matter what you learned about the basic tenants of marketing. It's seems the science is too complicated for some to grasp, and there is no way to simplify it in a way that the consumer "readily understands", try as we may. One guy thinks he'll sell seed for what I pay someone to help me water etc, another wants deep discounts for bulk but doesn't realize the end result is unauthorized retailers undercutting folk you are comfortable working with etc, I guess you guys have never been to Spain lol. Some of these ideas sound/look good on paper but reality gets in the way.

The ratio of phenotypic value (as a grower) vs genotypic value (as a breeder) will vary greatly depending on the line in question, ie, unanswerable.

A customers perception is as important as his understanding allows for. Some of you guys are pissed off because that drill works like shit, never mind you're trying to use it as a fucking hammer.

Excellent points BUT one inaccuracy IMHO, it is not impossible to simplify it in a way that consumers cant make a wise purchase decision.

Breeders should be required BY ETHICS if not by regulation to disclose their techniques, but as in the draw a horse to water analogy, only those with an analytical mindset will care to read it and only once that can understand it will benefit. There is a science to consumer psychology and I have training in it, i can offer links to my references if so desired. For what it is worth the analytical mindset makes up the smallest percentage of your potential aggregate market.

TBH, I think if you were willing to let go of the notion of educating the end consumer with strictly science We could come up with a set of >criteria< the buyer make in breeder selection just like a breeder makes in plant selection.

We should be able to make it a scientific process even though not all selections will be made based on it.

Not trying to form a contention Tom but create a solution that would satisfy all points of view so everyone breeder and buyer alike could have a better promise of delivery ratio

See Tom I never argue the benefit or importance I agree with the value YOU put on it for your means 110% and even the importance other breeders should put on it. It is the notion that you can force consumers to use scientific analyticals to make wise purchase decisions, and yes you are right they should, but you can't change how some people are "wired". You have to adjust to their genetic disposition, not the other way around, and this is in only regards to a breeder consumer relationship, not a breeder to breeder relationship.

One of the things I deal with DAILY with the PHds I deal with is that they are so highly focused and specialized that they forget what it is like to think about the same topic from uneducated and layman's points of views. It is the nature of the beast to assume everyone thinks like you, couple that with decades of experience and expertise and maybe you can begin to understand that pouring everything you know even into a few small simple words still might be beyond the grasp of those you speak with.

Perceptions are important even if they are not yours and not mesh, not because of their accuracy but because of their infleunce nonetheless.

This is why marketing is important AND why it gets a bad rep because in the end no matter how hard you try to let consumer make an educated choice (my preference as well) they may not get, choose to get, or care to be educated

Many people simply want to spend money and get what they want. Smart? no Reality? yea

I do have a wealth of marketing experience and resource and think i have some value to add here for everyone's behalf but it only works if our energies do not conflict

either way 4/20 and a special day for you and naccy is close and I have no desire to add any vibe your way that doesn't compliment this time in your lives so as always nothing but my humble my opinions kind sir

 

[bombadil.360]

hold on a sec, you said earlier:

odd isn't it that you aren't finding gold? so now you just want keepers ie something good to clone off..... yet when someone points out how to best get these, you say you just need 2 parents and they will produce said 'gold' now it seems this isn't the case! though it is often the case when 2 highly homozygous (usually unrelated to exploit heterosis, in a trad F1 hybrid) lines are put together...

oh and if the said keeper is not passing on the genes to it's progeny, it isn't something to be bred with imo - "The value of a breeding parent is shown in it's progeny".

so going back to earlier you actually would prefer seeds that represent a said clone as best it can?

I do fully agree with you on the price of seeds, many are overpriced for the like of work and quality that is contained within them.

I do laugh at people slagging of Dj short and the price of his seeds, years of work and it's stood the test of time, and what it passes on is quality... yes there are problems with mutants and intersexual expression, that said his stock one of the most out crossed resource, why is that?

Hell why did Rez want to cross to Dj's clones??????

I made two different claims in regards two different subjects.

the first claim relates to how to produce quality seeds by keeping two tested parents, thus replicating old school style consistent progeny.

the second claim is in regards the issue of having to pop several dozens of seeds out of certain commercial stock in order to find a 'keeper', and what is it people expect by finding such 'keeper'.

two different things, don't read more into them than what has actually been said.

 

[Weird]

On tool breeders could use to help consumers is to do like doctors or other professions do. They create their own boards.committees to set standards for the industry and this allow fellow professionals to be recognized as meeting that standard .

If there were a board of highly respected breeders putting together standards they agree upon then the consumer would at least have a scientific standard to use as a measure without understanding the science.

 

[stickshift]

I made two different claims in regards two different subjects.

the first claim relates to how to produce quality seeds by keeping two tested parents, thus replicating old school style consistent progeny.

the second claim is in regards the issue of having to pop several dozens of seeds out of certain commercial stock in order to find a 'keeper', and what is it people expect by finding such 'keeper'.

two different things, don't read more into them than what has actually been said.

Well clearly then people are not doing claim 1 or you wouldn't need Claim 2.

 

[Tom Hill]

I am trying Weird I really am. A customer to make wise decisions needs to understand how genetics work, then and only then will they make wise purchasing decisions.

How can you hold someone by ethics to disclose something he doesn't even understand? Are you going to explain to folks the amount of homogeneity to be expected in offerings, in the same breath as arguing for your unscientific methods and how there's really no need to understand any of that, lol?

Re 4/20, what, I thought this was just some acid test show we were putting on for the masses, lol? You know I love you brother. -T

 

[bombadil.360]

Well clearly then people are not doing claim 1 or you wouldn't need Claim 2.

I'd not go as far as saying that there is not anyone doing claim No.1... you can find some consistent cultivars for sure.

also, we have to consider that if someone is offering seeds from a big open pollination with the purpose of trying to preserve as much genetic material as possible, that then pheno-hunting within those offered seeds will be necessary if one wants to find a specific phenotype as a keeper.

but I did not make any of those two claims in relation to current breeders, just in general, in response to other posters' comment.

peace

 

[Weird]

No one is slagging DJs work. He uses technique to select phenotypes that give him what he wants. but a byproduct is he can't separate the chemotypes he wants from the phenotypes they associate with.

This is were the "art of his selection" means more than the science behind it and why selling on the science of selection does not benefit DJ. People buy DJs work because they want the chemptypes experience not because his genotypes contain easy to grow, high yielding, fast strains.

People should simply were informed that if you want an acceptable chemotypes of DJ's work you need to be sensitive about environmental control or expect to search greater numbers to find an acceptable phenotype/chemotype combination and that their simply is no way around it.

I think this would more accurately set properly set customer expectations

 

[Tom Hill]

On tool breeders could use to help consumers is to do like doctors or other professions do. They create their own boards.committees to set standards for the industry and this allow fellow professionals to be recognized as meeting that standard .

If there were a board of highly respected breeders putting together standards they agree upon then the consumer would at least have a scientific standard to use as a measure without understanding the science.

Yes, and they would be ostracized, by you and yours, for having the nerve to think they had something to offer more than the closet hack.. And besides, the hack does occasionally knock it out of the park, the maths allow for that. So where does that leave us, oh right, the consumer to make wise decisions needs to understand something of the science he is partaking in. After all, the professional carpenter does not send his 4 year old daughter down to the hardware store to purchase his tools for him does he?

 

[Weird]

Yes, and they would be ostracized, by you and yours, for having the nerve to think they had something to offer more than the closet hack.. And besides, the hack does occasionally knock it out of the park, the maths allow for that. So where does that leave us, oh right, the consumer to make wise decisions needs to understand something of the science he is partaking in. After all, the professional carpenter does not send his 4 year old daughter down to the hardware store to purchase his tools for him does he?

No but the home owner who highers the carpenter might use angie's list or the local chamber of commerce to gauge his quality before before they ask go to the carpenters union to get a lesson in carpentry

Look at coca cola and mcdonalds, its not the formula of the secret ingredients or secret sauce that makes the customer by the delivery of the experience they add that stimulates a consumer purchase

It is a really slippery slope, and I do understand your apprehension and it has been the hardest obstacle in my career. I HATE to sell someone who refuses to understand WHY they should make that purchase decision because they put the ownership of that decision onto ME.

Conversely This why branding is so important BECAUSE majority of people buy based on TRUST not understanding, and this will be the hardest logic nut for any of us to grasp. We are growers, breeders in a probationary market, we are here because of our mistrust in information and lack of integrity in government and science so it goes against our instinct to think like the average consumer because they think like the average "sheeple"

at least that is how I see it

on a completely other note all together, I spent a many hours of a day if not weeks of time getting spun staring at seed casings trying to read the stripes, as if they were some alien language that if read, would give us details of the contents inside.

I haven't figured out how to read it yet, but am I the ONLY one?

 

[Infinitesimal]

on a completely other note all together, I spent a many hours of a day if not weeks of time getting spun staring at seed casings trying to read the stripes, as if they were some alien language that if read, would give us details of the contents inside.

I haven't figured out how to read it yet, but am I the ONLY one?

Yes, you are... Weird... yes you are... yes you are

 

[Tom Hill]

Anyway Weird the things you're bringing up have been discussed among a few pros in this industry, but yes, a slippery slope. And those stripes or mottling on seeds is just a cammo for the birds etc who'd rather eat it than grow it, I wouldn't try to read too much more than that from it.

 

[Weird]

Anyway Weird the things you're bringing up have been discussed among a few pros in this industry, but yes, a slippery slope. And those stripes or mottling on seeds is just a cammo for the birds etc who'd rather eat it than grow it, I wouldn't try to read too much more than that from it.

I haven't sat and tried to crack that code in many many many moons I found popping them was more effective and to be honest even when I was high enough to think of trying I never really felt I would crack some code other than find a predictable pattern (i still pick which seeds i sow based on how those stripes and thus seed coats look).

Thanks though I did not see realize its use as camouflage, interesting because one of the lines i bred a a decades back had none at all and it really bothered me because the trait was gone and I did not understand the potential implications.

the test of those were one of the most unproductive ever as far as chemical phenotype, yet had great phenotypes and had used the same male that I had used on many other strains. I am not correlating the trait to the behavior because I did not put in effort to test if one existed, but since we are on the subject I had to mention it.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

I made a pile of SD IBL seeds and they have no mottling, they're all just light brown.

Chimera has said the seed coat comes from the female.

 

[Weird]

another slippery slope is that if you breed a breeders point of view is most important, if by seed a seed buyers point of view is most important. Neither is incorrect but rather simply appropriate.

 

[Tom Hill]

another slippery slope is that if you breed a breeders point of view is most important, if by seed a seed buyers point of view is most important. Neither is incorrect but rather simply appropriate.

Cough cough horse shit! You're telling me these guys whining about "why isn't every seed awesome" and all that bs, with zero understanding of how impossible that is, have any validity at all to their argument? They do not, no way no fucking how.

 

[canned abyss1]

I am trying Weird I really am. A customer to make wise decisions needs to understand how genetics work, then and only then will they make wise purchasing decisions.

This would be nice if a consumers mind actually worked like that but in most cases it doesn't. Consumers don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works to purchase a car nor do they need to know how the inner workings of their computer or the programs that run them work to purchase a computer. They rely on marketing and reputation of the company. Consumers want a reliable product that does what it says its going to do, the inner workings or how it was created is inconsequential.

 

[Weird]

I made a pile of SD IBL seeds and they have no mottling, they're all just light brown.

Chimera has said the seed coat comes from the female.

Interestingly enough the mother was a bag seed from Mexican "mids" and the weed of origin was really nice

the weed normally had brown unmolted seed covers with a rare jet black seed which were rare and normally cracked. Those black ones always piqued my interest but most were cracked or smaller than the larger healthier looking brown ones I chose that direction.

I had hundreds of bags of labelled seed from ANYTHING I ever encountered and I was obsessive about it/

When I was forced to tear down I lost 99% of all that "wild" seed stock, sucks but it is what it is.