Thinking about going LED

[Lazyeye]

Hi LED'ers!

I'm on my first grow at the moment. Went with the old trusted way of the HPS, even though some people on the forums advised me to go LED... I thought to myself, *LED's are freaking expensive! HPS is cheap and does the job!". What I didn't think about is that HPS's are fucking hot!

So the thing is, I bought a 600w hps and a 600w gavita ballast that can dim down to 400/300. Right now I can run at 400w, more than that and it gets too hot. Naturally I want to maximize my tents capabilities (DR90 Twin), wich is why I went with the 600w bulb. It gets too hot because the closet I grow in does not have a regular window. I'll attach a picture of it for simplicity.

As you can see in the pictures I can not open the window. The ledge on top of it is a venting hatch of some sort. It opens to about 1cm. Basically just to circulate the air in the apartment I think. Wich is why I need a light that doesn't emit as much heat!

Right now I got the door to the closet open as soon as I am home and not having visitors here, keeps the temp at a good level. But when at work I keep the door closed (venting hatch open 24/7).

What LED would suit my situation best? As I said I want to produce as much as I possibly can out of this tent.

Thanks in advance!

 

[rives]

Before you toss everything, you might want to check into a vented hood and a separate fan loop for venting the hood. You said that you went with Gavita, so I assume that your hood is an open one. LEDs don't generate a hell of a lot less heat than HIDs, popular wisdom notwithstanding. It is a different type of heat, though - HPS will "throw" IR, which heats up the surroundings more than LEDs do. However, it is sometimes difficult to do a good of a job venting the heat from LEDs because they aren't set up for extraction like a vented hood is.

That said, you should check out the line of LED fixtures from California Lightworks. Growershouse.com seems to have good pricing on them, as well as a number of other lines.

http://www.californialightworks.com/index.html

https://growershouse.com/

 

[Lazyeye]

I do actually have a vented hood. It's from Prima Klima.

Ambient temperature in the room (not in the tent) is like 24C (75F), around 26-27C with HPS running att 400w inside the tent. And over 30C (86F) when going at 600w. So I guess it's the IR heat that's fucking me over? Problem is I can't make any holes in the wall etc for exhausting air out of the room, or putting an AC in there. I need to work around this...

I've been looking at CLW, looks good. Wich one do you think would work best for me yield wise?

Also been looking at HGL lights, even though the woman who runs it seems to be a total douche.

Main prio for me is a fixture that handles the heat well.

I've been talking to another company (undisclosed for the time being). They got a 560W LED panel with the following specs: R(660nm) 160pcs. B(470nm) 32pcs. R(640nm) 64pcs B(440nm) 32pcs. IR(740nm) 32pcs G(525nm)16pcs.

Each LED diod is supposed to be 3W. I don't get how all of those equals 560W though, to me it's more like 1000W something? Maybe I'm missing something. Very new to the whole LED thing.

Does the ratio of the different wavelengths look good?

 

[xmobotx]

basically; the LEDs in that fixture would handle 3w but the drivers the co is using are putting out 50%-60% of that rating

the diodes last longer running @ 60% or so than @ 100% all the time

 

[rives]

Keep in mind that LED fixtures don't have great light distribution as you move away from the edges of the fixture. For this reason, many of us are recommending several smaller fixtures rather than just one high-wattage unit that doesn't do a good job of reaching the edges.

HGL has a number of happy customers on here. I try to vote with my dollar and have found her past business practices abhorrent.

The company that you are looking at is probably (hopefully) talking about what the true wattage of the fixture is - what it pulls at the receptacle. The "3w" rating is nominal, and really has nothing to do with how the chips are being driven. Basically, it just tells you which "family" the chips come from. Very few manufacturers drive their 3w chips at 3w. The cooling of the fixture determines how hard the chips can be driven and live to their rated life, and good cooling is expensive.

The ratio looks fine at first glance, but again means very little. Depending on the manufacturer of the chip and which "bin" (efficiency) they are, the true output can vary wildly. The early fixtures concentrated on red and blue, and since then it has become fashionable to offer every color in the spectrum. I have been leaning toward the whites (Cool white, neutral white & warm white) to combine the best aspects of all of the colors.

You will find a ton of information on here, particularly in the DIY threads. There tends to be a lot more information in them regarding why people made their specific choices than in the threads devoted to a specific manufacturer's product.

 

[yerboyblue]

I would like to say about LED's are that all the LED grows that people have posted on here that they considered to be rocking, looked really larfy and seemed to take a long time to finish. I still don't believe they are intense enough to flower real successfully. However, they do seem to do well for vegging.
Save the money or put it into making the space and environment better. You already have a great light, so might as well invest in the other factors that will take your setup to the next level.

Seeing that you are in a closet, a 600W even dimmed to 400 will cause some major heat issues. A plain 400 or even 250W might be better. Unfortunately a closed closet with no air coming in or out will always have heat issues.
If you could figure out some way to take that vent thing out and make the opening bigger, you could probably rig up some manifold and pull air in with a fan. Or you could buy another door for the closet, insulate it, and put a vent hole in it and either run a fan or portable A/C, then just vent the apartment via the windows. This would be a pain if you had visitors as you would need time to put the original door back up and turn off the light. Although that's what I would do in your situation if I couldn't take that window out.
Actually I guess that doesn't make sense either because you want the door totally sealed and inconspicuous for whatever reason when you leave for work. Sorry I can't help. If that window is in a non-descript location on the outside, like it's hard to notice or see, I would consider taking it out and paying for the replacement when you move.

 

[Lazyeye]

rives: Yeah I've been told this. The fixture I'm looking at uses the X2 lense, wich is supposed to be good. The one I'm looking at is made by Bysen, and is supposed to be the 336X-PRO from HGL, or rather vice versa. I've been told that HGL bought the lights from Bysen and then retailed. According to HGL this fixture will cover a 4x4 area, so my 3x3 area should be very well lit up by this?

I too have read way too much about HGL to be comfortable to purchase anything from them. Although their lights seem to do great for alot of people, wich is why I'm looking at the "same" light but from the manufacter itself instead.

The information sure is there, by the ton! But it's all very technical and I'm a rookie grower, and very much more rookie about LED's hehe. I'm trying to learn though.

yerboybloue: I guess it depends? Blazeoneup made a great comparison thread with a HGL fixture against a 400w HID, where the HGL light totally owned the HID in g/w. I liked the look of the plants, maybe it's a personal preference?

I like the way you think, but I must disagree. I have thought about buying another door though, but as you said it's alot of fucking work when you got people coming over. Changing the window is a no go, I can't do it myself. And the window is very visible by others, wich in turn would raise suspision about what I'm doing. And the fact that over here we use our former landlords as references for future landlords. I don't want anything negative to clutter up my otherwise spotless record.

Thanks for your ideas though, I appreciate that you're taking your time!

Edit: The temp in the room is fine when going at 400w, probably fine at 600w as well. I don't want to be pushing the boundaries during my first grow though. I'd rather keep it safe with some margin, wich is why I keep it at 400w. The reason I'm looking in to LED's are the summer months...

 

[rives]

The one I'm looking at is made by Bysen, and is supposed to be the 336X-PRO from HGL, or rather vice versa. I've been told that HGL bought the lights from Bysen and then retailed. According to HGL this fixture will cover a 4x4 area, so my 3x3 area should be very well lit up by this?

I just looked at the dimensions - it is nearly 24" square, so it would need to fan out 6" per side.... it would probably work fine.

 

[Lazyeye]

Thanks for your input rives, means alot! I'm waiting for a price from Bysen as they normally don't sell just 1 piece...

 

[cateros]

rives: Yeah I've been told this. The fixture I'm looking at uses the X2 lense, wich is supposed to be good. The one I'm looking at is made by Bysen, and is supposed to be the 336X-PRO from HGL, or rather vice versa. I've been told that HGL bought the lights from Bysen and then retailed. According to HGL this fixture will cover a 4x4 area, so my 3x3 area should be very well lit up by this?

I too have read way too much about HGL to be comfortable to purchase anything from them. Although their lights seem to do great for alot of people, wich is why I'm looking at the "same" light but from the manufacter itself instead.

The information sure is there, by the ton! But it's all very technical and I'm a rookie grower, and very much more rookie about LED's hehe. I'm trying to learn though.

yerboybloue: I guess it depends? Blazeoneup made a great comparison thread with a HGL fixture against a 400w HID, where the HGL light totally owned the HID in g/w. I liked the look of the plants, maybe it's a personal preference?

I like the way you think, but I must disagree. I have thought about buying another door though, but as you said it's alot of fucking work when you got people coming over. Changing the window is a no go, I can't do it myself. And the window is very visible by others, wich in turn would raise suspision about what I'm doing. And the fact that over here we use our former landlords as references for future landlords. I don't want anything negative to clutter up my otherwise spotless record.

Thanks for your ideas though, I appreciate that you're taking your time!

Edit: The temp in the room is fine when going at 400w, probably fine at 600w as well. I don't want to be pushing the boundaries during my first grow though. I'd rather keep it safe with some margin, wich is why I keep it at 400w. The reason I'm looking in to LED's are the summer months...

I own a couple of the penetrators extremes myself a 336x pro and the 189 xx pro , I would actually look at 2 of the 126x's the overlap from them should be pretty good , other then the HGL lights there is also the black dog led's with the lifetime warranty I have heard people talking about, but they are a sealed system and if you have problems that require warranty service you will have to put a downpayment on a new system to be sent out to you which will is refunded when they receive the unit back from you .

 

[Lazyeye]

Thanks for your input cateros!

How do you like your fixtures? Do you hit 1g/w with the 336?

I saw some videos from growingforfreedom on youtube, when he tested blackdog led's. I wasn't at all impressed?

I see what you're saying with the overlapping, should be awesome. What worries me is the width? HGL's site says 91cm, and alot of people seem to think that basically all retailers exagerate a bit on their footprints? The 336 says 48"x48", wich would give me a margin even with the exageration. Or am I thinking it wrong?

Besides, one big would dish out more wattage and hopefully more yield? I know you shouldn't go yield crazy, but yeah I am

 

[medmaker420]

the difference between spreading out the wattage with hps and leds is that with hps you would be using less wattage bulbs at each point to make up the wattage spread

example 4 x 250hps spread out to expand the canopy of 1k watts of hps

but with leds each led diode is the same wattage whether it is a smaller panel or a big one so when you want to hit canopies for their full width, it isn't a more wattage led panel that is needed but smaller panels running the same wattage/ spectrum of the larger panel that you like.

It will expand the leds capabilities of hitting the entire canopy and still get the same exact penetration because they are not less wattage diodes but just spread out in a more efficient way. I also think this will also end up increasing a led growers grams per watt.

I think people are trying to cram too many watts into the panels and more research and testing should go into how little amount of diode placement is needed to get decent yields without sacrificing anything.

For example, do you think led panels really need 50 watts per sqft like what is recommended with hps? I think it might be closer to 25 watts per square foot but without a diy panel, it is just a thought in my head.

Whatever panel you run, I do think it is best to have two than one but at least with the panels these days if one diode goes out then just one goes out and doesn't blank out the entire panel.

In the long run I would rather have a led panel with 3 or 4 lights out than having no light if and when my hps bulb burns our or gets broken.

Still wanting to test some pll with leds though

 

[Lazyeye]

Welcome medmaker! Both rives and medmaker, this is getting good!

I hear what you're saying. But do you need LED's covering it all? Don't they fan out at all? As rives calculated, they only need to fan out 6". And the X2 lens is supposed to be good at this?

I could of course go with two smaller ones. But that would end up with 150w less, wich could potentially be 150 grams every harvest?

I might come off as I don't listen, I do! Alot! Just trying to wrap my head around the LED tech.

 

[cateros]

Well I am in the process of rebuilding my grow room after a fire back in 2011 we had a roofer set the roof on fire and the subsequent smoke and fire and water damage has caused us to gut and rebuild the entire home. So My room right now is in a state of disarray as it has just passed Electrical safety standards ,plumbing and proper insulation rating , I have a journal set up in the led lighting section myself. Ill add a link just so you can see what I am working with and where we are in construction . So far I have only powered up the units to make sure they worked the 336 came with 3 of the fans cracked as the only defect and by my own inspection I think it may have been due to ups stacking the 189 right on top of it as the fans were only cracked so that they were hanging down and jamming I could have easily repaired them with crazy glue in 20 seconds but I thought lets test warranty called up got Donnie the guy who I spoke with when I ordered my lights and 3 days later I had my new fans in hand and permission to open the case without voiding warranty and in my journal I will posting some pics of the internal construction that I took when I had finished replacing the fans, basically the 336x pro is made up of 16 of the 21x pros, only difference is the 16 arrays are made up of sets of 2 21x pros which share one led driver if one fails I belive both will fail I was told but your other 14 arrays will continue to operate while they ship you out the replacement parts so your panel isn't down and you don't have to ship the entire light back and wait for repairs and then wait for it to get back. I believe the same is true if one power supply fails half the board will still operate ,while they ship you a new one. Just don't ever mention what your growing if your not a legal cannabis producer (I only say this cause of a rumour I have heard) and use a credit card so if you have warranty issues they wont honour you can just go back to you cc company as mine has customer protection and will just have me ship back any purchases and credit all my money back to my account if they don't live up to the advertised warranty. If your licenced then you have very little to worry about especially in Canada where Health Canada issues licences to grow so I don't have to worry about the problems in the states with state vs federal law issues on mmj .

Here is link to the journal of the room I am building pics of construction ,wiring, etc and lights running. Ill post the pics of the internals of the 336 soon as I find them.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=257668

 

[cateros]

Welcome medmaker! Both rives and medmaker, this is getting good!

I hear what you're saying. But do you need LED's covering it all? Don't they fan out at all? As rives calculated, they only need to fan out 6". And the X2 lens is supposed to be good at this?

I could of course go with two smaller ones. But that would end up with 150w less, wich could potentially be 150 grams every harvest?

I might come off as I don't listen, I do! Alot! Just trying to wrap my head around the LED tech.

The general rule of thumb I have seen most agree on is to achieve the equal results with an led vs hid you need to use about 60% of the wattage so 400w led replace 600w, 600-800w to replace or exceed supposedly a 1000w, But one thing I have noticed other then the supposed 356g autoflower monster I have seen on youtube that was like 5 feet tall most other led grows I have seen that have produced good yields , have also employed SCroG or some type of training to increase bud sites keep plants compact to ensure good penetration etc supposedly the x2 if advertising is to believed produces 1000umols 24" from canopy and can grow plants up to 42". But I think you would do better using SCroG and trying to fill your entire space with tops that will be on the top of the canopy , to me this seems the best way to use led's.

 

[FunkBomb]

Check out the XML lights from Advanced LED. Here is a link from someone doing a log on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnvNvJ20IFs

-Funk

 

[Lazyeye]

The general rule of thumb I have seen most agree on is to achieve the equal results with an led vs hid you need to use about 60% of the wattage so 400w led replace 600w, 600-800w to replace or exceed supposedly a 1000w, But one thing I have noticed other then the supposed 356g autoflower monster I have seen on youtube that was like 5 feet tall most other led grows I have seen that have produced good yields , have also employed SCroG or some type of training to increase bud sites keep plants compact to ensure good penetration etc supposedly the x2 if advertising is to believed produces 1000umols 24" from canopy and can grow plants up to 42". But I think you would do better using SCroG and trying to fill your entire space with tops that will be on the top of the canopy , to me this seems the best way to use led's.

I might try to scrog, but I don't think I'm patient enough. I got my two chambers for a reason you know My thought is to top enough for the canopy to cover the entire area anyway. I might add a scrog net for support and put the branches in as the plants stretch.

FunkBomb: Thanks! Will definitley check it out!

 

[Lazyeye]

Been looking around, ALOT lately. I'm not getting a whole lot smarter about the technology though. But I guess that'll come. I've found these that I'm somewhat interested in:

HGL Penetrator-336 PRO. $1999 http://growershouse.com/penetrator-336x-pro
California Light Works Solar Storm 800W. $1599 http://growershouse.com/california-light-works-solar-storm-800w-led
LumiGrow Pro 650. $1459 http://growershouse.com/lumigrow-pro-650
SP113D-560W. $765 http://www.bsled.com/led-grow-light/sp113d-560w.html (this is a one-off. Normally don't sell only 1 unit).

The last light is the one I talked about earlier in the thread. I've been talking alot with Bysen and HGL, will make a new thread with that thing. I've gathered that people are kind of interested in the whole HGL/Bysen thing, at least earlier.

What would you guys do for the most efficient setup? Someone mentioned running several smaller lights, wich lights would you use if to go that route?

Edit: Forgot to add Diamond Series XML 10W Cree from Advancedleds. I think I'd need 2x 300w of these if choosing these. Ending up at $1994

 

[medmaker420]

I would get panels that would put the watts per sqft at 25-30. This is also actual running watts and not listed. So for example a running watts panel of 30 or so watts would be listed as a 75-100w panel, ufo etc depending on how they setup the draw.

I like the ufo or square types of panel setups but I think the diode placement should be spread out further as most are very crammed together.

I also think the panels should be shaped closer to a "top" or maybe even a shield so there is some bevel to it so the light spread could hit the sides better. The side lighting of leds currently isn't the best and hope to see this issue fixed once 2014 rolls in.

great thread brother and hope all grows well!
the aardvark

 

[VerdantGreen]

you are definitely better with more small fixtures spaced out a bit rather than one big fixture in the middle

eg - if you went for hgl you would be better going for 4x 84Xpro than 1 x 336Xpro.

with the 5% reduction for buying 4 or more lights it will work out almost the same price

even though the footprint might be the same you will get a definite brighter spot in the middle with the big light whearas with 4 small lights you will get much more even spread of light over the whole footprint.

VG