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Aliens, yay or nay?

Aliens, yay or nay?

  • Absolutely no

    Votes: 18 4.8%
  • Maybe, i'm not sure

    Votes: 43 11.5%
  • Of course, there are aliens out there!

    Votes: 312 83.6%

  • Total voters
    373

Anti

Sorcerer's Apprentice
Veteran
OK. So we can agree that agreement of the parties does not equal objectivity, only agreement.

YES!

I've understood you so far to be saying that there is an objective reality, but none of us can experience it, but your vision of it is closer to accurate than mine. Is that correct?
NO!

Let me modify your statement to reflect my actual view:

There MAY BE an objective reality but none of us can experience it directly. We all experience it via our senses.

My vision MAY BE closer to that objective reality than yours or yours MAY BE closer than mine. They cannot be be on opposite sides of the coin and both land heads up. One of us is saying "heads" and the other "tails". The coin flips. It does not land on both. One of us is closer to the truth - whatever that may turn out to be.


For instance, if you believe (without evidence) that people are capable of "channeling" their future/alien selves, then your belief about this subject will ALTER the way you perceive the ostensibly objective world. If I withhold belief until I see the evidence, my simulacrum is likely to be closer to objective reality than a person who believes things WITHOUT evidence.

The reason for this is that my simulacrum will only consist of beliefs that I was able to justify with evidence, while your simulacrum will include beliefs that did not require evidence and thus may or may not reflect the "objective" world that seems to exist out there.

Again, if you wish to call that objective world into question, you are welcome to do so. I believe it exists "conditionally" (but I do not believe absolutely) based on my continued experience of the external world. When I am thirsty, I walk to the fridge and get a frosty beverage. The fridge is always in the same place and the beverages eventually run out. It's been like that as long as I can remember. So I "believe" that beverages in the fridge will generally be cold if the fridge is working and they've been in there long enough.

If you ask "Are you sure your beverages in the fridge are cold?" then I suddenly have a reason to doubt and I reply that I am not sure at all, but that I put them in there 4 days ago, so to the best of my knowledge, they will be cold. Maybe you know that the fridge is broken and you're letting me know passive-aggressively. When I discover the beverages are not cold, I will investigate further.

So then there is no such thing as objective reality? Or am I just misunderstanding you? Does an objective reality exist or not?
How can we know whether our sense data is lying to us? What will we use to test this if not our senses?

If our senses are lying to us, how will we perceive that we are being lied to? Should we use our senses?

I've answered this question over and over again, and you keep asking it.

Do you understand yet?

Should? Says who? Where do you get all these rules from, objective reality?
I say the sun is going to rise from the east in the morning and set in the west the same evening. Let's go outside and see what happens.

You say bashar is an alien/future self. If he is, he should be able to access alien/future knowledge. That he has yet to do so is more suggestive (not ABSOLUTE PROOF) that he does not have this access.

I'm not the one making the claim that something (objective reality) exists. If you are, then the burden of proof is on you. And again, I anxiously await your proof of same.
I never made the claim that objective reality exists. But if it doesn't, who do you suppose you are having a conversation with?

How many more times will I have to say that the only way I can measure "objective reality" is with my senses and my consciousness? Hopefully zero.

I already used the brain in the box hypothesis. If I am a brain in a box with sense data being fed into the brain via a computer, I can only experience whatever the computer is showing me. If I am in the Matrix, I cannot "wake up" until Morpheus shows up and provides me with the pill.

In the meantime, I can test the data being presented by my senses and accept only the things that return repeatable results.

For example - I don't believe that Bashar is an alien. You could get me to believe it by providing some evidence that he is.

I do believe the sun will rise tomorrow. It will rise from the east, travel across the sky and set in the west tomorrow evening.

So I feel confident in speculating that the sun will rise tomorrow. I do not feel confident in speculating that Bashar is a visitor from the future or an alien. See?

Even if the sun rises tomorrow, I will not be ABSOLUTELY SURE that the sun OBJECTIVELY EXISTS. All of my data about the sun comes to me through my senses and my senses might be lying to me.
 
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Anti

Sorcerer's Apprentice
Veteran
Here is material for your examination Anti

[youtubeif]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evQsOFQju08[/youtubeif]


you formatted it wrong so it doesn't work. you have to delete everything before the "=" for it to work.
[youtubeif]evQsOFQju08[/youtubeif]

I am quite familiar with this subject, as well.

Studying perception is a hobby of mine.

It's one of the reasons I am so skeptical of dubious claims.

(Of course, if anyone provided evidence for these claims they would cease to be dubious.)
 

Rudedewd

Member
It's egotistical to think that the Human Race is the only intelligent life in the universe. Every night I get smoked up and wait for the Mothership. It hasn't appeared yet but the toking and waiting is alot of fun.
 

ezak420

Member
Is the Government or other funded organizations that good they could keep Aliens a secret from the public? Or are Aliens that good they can keep themselves a secret.
 

DreamsofTesla

Member
Veteran
Anti

What I have been asking for is a one-word answer to a Boolean query. I have stated a position, and am asking you to state one on the same point. I'm not asking you to give me an analogy, a set of conditions, a scenario, or opinions about me. I'm asking you for a one-word answer, either YES or NO:

Is there such a thing as objective reality?

YES or NO?

<3 Tesla
 

megayields

Grower of Connoisseur herb's.
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Anti

What I have been asking for is a one-word answer to a Boolean query. I have stated a position, and am asking you to state one on the same point. I'm not asking you to give me an analogy, a set of conditions, a scenario, or opinions about me. I'm asking you for a one-word answer, either YES or NO:

Is there such a thing as objective reality?

YES or NO?

<3 Tesla

Some questions DEFY simple "yes or no" answers...but I suspect you know that already.
 

DreamsofTesla

Member
Veteran
Mega,

I disagree, on this question. It's a pretty simple one, actually. What do you think? Is there such a thing as objective reality? Again, I'm looking for a one-word answer.

<3 Tesla
 
U

unthing

yes that was smartass :D

this thread needs some positive vibrations, whether you believe them or not. i was a bit rude earlier sorry about that.
 

DreamsofTesla

Member
Veteran
yes that was smartass
biggrin.gif


this thread needs some positive vibrations, whether you believe them or not. i was a bit rude earlier sorry about that.

Yes, Un, I agree about the positive vibrations.

My definition of "positive" and "negative" is this:

Positive is that which tends to unite. Negative is that which tends to separate or divide.

That's my definition, anyway.

Belief in an objective reality is the core of division, is it not? The idea that one absolute truth does exist, as opposed to an infinite number of perspectives? Once there's an objective reality, then we can all judge who's aligned with it and who's not.

<3 Tesla
 

BushyOldGrower

Bubblegum Specialist
Veteran
Insults don't win debates. Perhaps this has been worn out if nothing is left to debate other than relative redneckness.

I liked the thread and I thought anti and bill made positive contributions but we should all agree to show respect for ourselves by showing respect for others.
 

DreamsofTesla

Member
Veteran
I'm sorry if I appear to be rude. I'm looking for a clear answer to a direct question by someone who has made a number of contradictory statements. He has also said this sort of discussion is fun for him.

<3 Tesla
 

Anti

Sorcerer's Apprentice
Veteran
Anti

What I have been asking for is a one-word answer to a Boolean query. I have stated a position, and am asking you to state one on the same point. I'm not asking you to give me an analogy, a set of conditions, a scenario, or opinions about me. I'm asking you for a one-word answer, either YES or NO:

You are asking for a one-word answer, either YES or NO to a question that I don't have a one-word, YES or NO answer to.

I have attempted to answer your question several different ways.

You claim to be intelligent, yet you keep asking it.

Is there such a thing as objective reality?

YES or NO?


I DON'T KNOW. THERE SEEMS TO BE, YET ALL I ACTUALLY KNOW ARE THE THINGS MY SENSES ARE TELLING ME. IF MY SENSES WERE LYING TO ME, THERE'D BE NO WAY FOR ME TO KNOW THEY WERE LYING, BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE TO USE MY SENSES. GET IT?

 

Anti

Sorcerer's Apprentice
Veteran
[/size][/font]
Belief in an objective reality is the core of division, is it not? The idea that one absolute truth does exist, as opposed to an infinite number of perspectives? Once there's an objective reality, then we can all judge who's aligned with it and who's not.

Even if there is an objective reality, none of us will ever directly experience it. All of us are living in simulacrums of that reality that are constructed in our mind using the data acquired by our senses, filtered through our memory and beliefs.

So there are an infinite number of perspectives on this theoretical objective reality and some of them are going to be closer to that reality than others. None of them will be perfect.

This is not hard to understand.
 

Anti

Sorcerer's Apprentice
Veteran
I'm sorry if I appear to be rude. I'm looking for a clear answer to a direct question by someone who has made a number of contradictory statements.

#1 On the subject of a clear answer to a direct question, answer this question:

Do planetary collisions inside the event horizon of a black hole make invisible zebras sleepy? YES OR NO?

Please provide evidence for either answer.

#2 Quote me (in context) making contradictory statements.

He has also said this sort of discussion is fun for him.
Obviously I'm having fun. I've been participating in this thread since the beginning.

I hope you are also having fun.
 

DreamsofTesla

Member
Veteran
Anti

You keep suggesting that I'm stupid, yet became insulted when I said I thought you were rude.

You've made a number of contradictory statements, including that there was an objective reality. Further, you consistently make statements would need to be underlaid by a belief in objective reality. I know, you disagree and are outraged that I'm putting words in your mouth.

Whatever beliefs we hold will change our simulacrum and thus change our EXPERIENCE of reality. Reality itself probably doesn't change, but our PERCEPTION of reality changes according to our beliefs, ideas and experiences.
[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by DreamsofTesla [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are you asserting that there is such a thing as objective reality?[/FONT]
No, I am not asserting it, though I'd wager it is there.
So that's different than you operating under beliefs that you can't prove in what way?


It points to an objective reality we are both experiencing. It doesn't point to a reality where Bashar is *REAL* in your universe but a con-man (or crazy person) in mine. There's an objective reality out there that is either closer to your view or closer to my view. It isn't both.
I don't run around believing ANYTHING I don't have sufficient evidence for. You should try it!
:laughing:
[FONT=&quot]Wait, you keep flopping back and forth. Is there an absolutely objective reality out there or not? [/FONT]
If I withhold belief until I see the evidence, my simulacrum is likely to be closer to objective reality than a person who believes things WITHOUT evidence.
Again, you continue to conflate my non-interest in vetting the SPEAKER with a non-interest in vetting the IDEAS. I have vetted the ideas. Your position on them has evolved in this thread.

By your logic, anyone who finds any food for thought in any work of fiction without fully vetting the author is a fool, right? If you are interested in the ideas presented in Lord of the Rings, you're delusional because Tolkien was not really a hobbit. Narnia isn't a real place, so thinking about that makes you stupid too, right?

Again, if you wish to call that objective world into question, you are welcome to do so. I believe it exists "conditionally" (but I do not believe absolutely) based on my continued experience of the external world.
All of this involves a data set in which the constant is you, right? All of the evidence YOU gather is gathered and assessed by YOU? But somehow your simulacrum is closer to the "objective" that may or may not exist (It doesn't!) than that of others. Hilarious.

Then you say zany shit like this:

I say the sun is going to rise from the east in the morning and set in the west the same evening. Let's go outside and see what happens.
Citing an almost universally-agreed upon (but still not objective) statement about the earth's orbit. From there you leap to the entirely arbitrary SHOULD statement about accessing knowledge and why someone should jump through the hoops you hold out.

You say bashar is an alien/future self. [Note: I didn't actually say that. I said he purports to be, and I don't care if that claim is true or not.] If he is, he should be able to access alien/future knowledge. That he has yet to do so is more suggestive (not ABSOLUTE PROOF) that he does not have this access.
Clearly, you haven't said that your personal, subjective, entirely arbitrary expectations are as universally accepted as the earth's rotational pattern, but it does kind of beg the question why that was a natural flow of thoughts/conversation for you.

Ultimately, my sense is that you just like to argue. I guess it's to be expected that someone with the name "Anti" would simply enjoy being oppositional for its own sake.

<3 Tesla
 

bombadil.360

Andinismo Hierbatero
Veteran
so did anyone see that last youtube video of a ufo that I posted?

on the subject of objective reality, imo, I can sum up and bridge something that Dream and Anti may agree upon:

there is an objective reality, and this objective reality can be best defined as 'sheer potentiality'.

:chin:
 

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
sorry but in these last posts i'm reading more antagonism from you Dreams of Tesla then from anti. he is not being a bully, he's just arguing his opinions based on his knowledge. we should be able to argue a subject as much as we feel like without letting anger creep in or making judgements on people who have a different viewpoint. debating the idea or issue is best done with a calm soul and a clear head. one has to always remember that just because someone might not agree with one, is no reason to feel anger towards that person. if you do let yourself get angry you will just be an easier target verbally. instead of emotion one needs to use logic and reason to look at what was said, what one doesn't agree with and why etc. debate the issue not the personality etc of the one debating them, imo.
 

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