Is it ever safe to breed with Hermis?

[Adze]

Perhaps a quote from Tom Hill might be considered.

"My primary goal is to have & produce the best that i can & i feel it would be a big mistake not to keep an open mind regarding intersex plants, & particularly those of exceptional quality."

If there is something laughable here, it's the level of ignorance that some have regarding genetics.

 

[frito bandito]

the only one who is ignorant is you. Tom Hill doesnt breed with male hermies. he was obviously referring to female hermies....which I completely agree with him on. why throw out a good female just because it spits a few nanners? but why in the fucking world would you purposely breed with a male hermie though? unless it had some trait locked in that one plant you couldnt find anywhere else? makes no sense. i guess you can just go back to breeding your killer strains your way and ill do mine. enjoy your shemales

 

[Adze]

D.P.

 

[MassSuperSkunk]

Personally I wouldn't breed with a herm. I think there's a lot more to learn in this subject though.

 

[Adze]

In reference to these “Male Hermies” Tom said:

"They're not males ime, but highly staminate intersex females. Cannabis plants (sex) are controlled first by the XY system, but secondly (expression) by (often environmentally triggered) modifying factors located on autosomes, or pseudoautosomal regions. A female plant with a noted absence of masculine type modifiers can be said to be strongly female. When selfed her progeny will contain very few if any intersex individuals. The opposite type of plant (a female with a noted abundance of masculine type modifiers) -though they may be masked in the parent- will occasionally give rise upon recombination to what you're referring to in this thread. But they're not really males.-T"



He also added this:

Ie, just maybe, you guys saying never to breed with hermies, are FULL OF SHIT! Quit trying to squeeze quantitative genetics inside of those narrow mendelian minds - it simply doesn't wash, sirs. -T

Please feel free to research this further.

 

[Tom Hill]

As mentioned in that open pollination thread a few down, like may beget like in 90% of the population, or it may only beget like in .1% of the population. That is explained by these traits being quantitative in nature, highly complex.

Imagine traits being turned on one generation, off the next, on and on like that, regardless of the breeders well intended phenotype evaluation based selections. This biometrical genetics situation has frustrated breeders for a very long time.

Traits such as yield and resistance to disease also fall into this category. In the case of intersex modifiers it becomes very complex as we consider the genes not only needing to be present, but activated by varying environmental thresholds being met.

Eg, a plant may be chalk full of intersex modifiers, but have a very high threshold for the stress of light leakage for example (multiply that by numerous other environmental thresholds), and therefore show no problems. That is, until we use it to breed, then it all comes crashing down on us as that threshold value gets reshuffled and hermie galore results in the progeny.

Take the above paragraph and now consider the complete opposite happening, for it does. So yeah, A) it is wise not place too very much value on phenotypic evals of breeding candidates and B) never say never. -T

 

[Nunsacred]

As an outdoor grower,
The nice thing about a small but predictable amount of hermie
is that if a truly outstanding pheno appears
then an amateur grower can generate an enriched population from it.

Imagine that's why a lot of great buzz/flavour traits seem to be associated with it.
Historically, hermies were a faster way to stabilise traits.
Outdoors, I think the benefits outweigh the costs until the male flowers become more than about 10% of the plant's flowers but each case is unique.
I had a marvellous old hermie pheno from a well documented strain
so far the small number of S1 progeny have not been encouraging,
but I will still try a few more.

 

[Thule]

I now have the answer. Out of six seeds, 4 solid females and two males that soon grew a few pistils. This is probably the reason why some landraces don't put out alot of males.

I incrossed the plants to see what happens in the next generation. I don't mind having lots of females.

I will now grow out the first incross to see what happens. The father hermied but the females stayed true.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

^ lol...DJ Short breeding advice.

lol ^ thats not DJ short. I have dyslexic tendencies in my progeny as well so I feel for you but JD is not DJ.

JD is his son and im sure has been breeding for a greater portion of his life than DJ himself.

I don't know what you have grown out from DJ short, but I have grown out several strains, and I never disliked one. Some are more stable than others, but Since I'm only looking for 1 out of 10 plants anyways, the other 9 are irrelevant to me.

Maybe if I was trying to breed something I would choose differently, but If I was breeding I wouldn't take somebody elses hybrid and start working with it

 

[MiMedicineMan]

Eg, a plant may be chalk full of intersex modifiers, but have a very high threshold for the stress of light leakage for example (multiply that by numerous other environmental thresholds), and therefore show no problems. That is, until we use it to breed, then it all comes crashing down on us as that threshold value gets reshuffled and hermie galore results in the progeny.

Take the above paragraph and now consider the complete opposite happening, for it does. So yeah, A) it is wise not place too very much value on phenotypic evals of breeding candidates and B) never say never. -T

And the progeny actually could have the same number of intersex modifiers (low?) but appear to be totally hermie due to environmental thresholds? And these things have to be triggered in each generation to pass desirable trairts onto the next?? are you kidding me???

This is why I've always said I stick to growing and let somebody who is a breeder do the breeding. You don't have to be a scientist to grow...

 

[bajangreen]

breed the best cull the rest.

 

[Adze]

And the progeny actually could have the same number of intersex modifiers (low?) but appear to be totally hermie due to environmental thresholds? And these things have to be triggered in each generation to pass desirable trairts onto the next?? are you kidding me???

This is why I've always said I stick to growing and let somebody who is a breeder do the breeding. You don't have to be a scientist to grow...

Everything you said, except they don't have to be triggered to be passed on. Expressed or not the genes are still passed on, just as resessive genes can be inherited without showing.

 

[MiMedicineMan]

Traits such as yield and resistance to disease also fall into this category. In the case of intersex modifiers it becomes very complex as we consider the genes not only needing to be present, but activated by varying environmental thresholds being met.

Eg, a plant may be chalk full of intersex modifiers, but have a very high threshold for the stress of light leakage for example (multiply that by numerous other environmental thresholds), and therefore show no problems. That is, until we use it to breed, then it all comes crashing down on us as that threshold value gets reshuffled and hermie galore results in the progeny.

Take the above paragraph and now consider the complete opposite happening, for it does. So yeah, A) it is wise not place too very much value on phenotypic evals of breeding candidates and B) never say never. -T

This is what I was referring to Adze.

He said intersex modifiers have to be acvitated by hitting thresholds.

This is just taking it to a whole new level and again why I'm a farmer not a scientist...

BTW Frito - didn't mean to bash, just poking back a bit

 

[bajangreen]

Ok, usually if the hermi is the only plant displaying the trait you want to keep, USUALLY that said trait is linked to the hermi trait and is very hard or close to impossible to separate the two traits.

So i say this again if for some reason the hermi is showing some desirable trait that you know is showing in non hermi plants of the same batch, but for some reason you only have the hermi you can use the seed............... but if the hermi is the ONLY one to show the trait then the two usually linked and close to impossible to separate.

 

[TomCalifornicus]

And the progeny actually could have the same number of intersex modifiers (low?) but appear to be totally hermie due to environmental thresholds? And these things have to be triggered in each generation to pass desirable trairts onto the next?? are you kidding me???

Yes sir. We can be looking at numerous environmentally triggered modifiers, yet environmental thresholds are not met and so therefore not expressed (as intersex). Likewise, we can have very few sexual modifiers and very low threshold values met can result in maximum expression throughout the population. And all of these factors are constantly reshuffled in a very complicated mathematical waltz. It's a pain in the ass, not so easy as "don't breed to hermies". Adze understands the situation more clearly than most ime.

Where he took exception is that they do not need to be triggered to be passed on. For they are passed on whether triggered each gen or not - further complicating the issue.