Aliens, yay or nay?

[Anti]

If Bashar is just Darryl doing some performance art piece, well that rocks IMHO. If that's the case, he's obviously put in a huge amount of thought and effort, and come up with a wealth of really interesting ideas for me to mull over.

Or rehashing the same old things that all con-men tap into. Your fears, your hopes, your aspirations, etc.

Like I said though, if you're getting something out of it, more power to you. You seem to have your head on your shoulders (i.e. you're not convinced nor do you even care whether he's really an alien. You just like his message.) Go nuts. (figuratively.)

The idea that he should have to find some other profession to work at (which actually he does, he's involved in film) and should only be able to do the Bashar thing as a hobby, that's a whole separate conversation. I disagree completely that if he asks for money for his time that he's automatically full of shit.

I didn't say that. I am merely speculating. Like wondering if a real alien who could "channel" into darryl's mind could "channel" into a billionaire entrepreneur's mind just as easily and have access to any capital they ever wanted.

Also disagree that if Bashar is who he says he is, he should offer proof. I totally get not being invested in external approval, YMMV.

Why should he (or anyone) prove anything to you (or anyone)? I asked that a while back.

He, you, Hubbleman, Hempkat, Bombadil, etc. are welcome to believe anything you damn well please. You are also willing to say whatever you damn well please. And I am free to do the same.

Nobody is trying to silence you.

Have whatever conversation you like.

I'm just really and truly not invested in that either way, don't know any other way to put that. Again I suggest you ask him about it. People ask him a lot of questions that I'm not interested in.

I looked for a way to ask him. That's why I went to the page. But I got distracted by all the questions that popped into my mind upon viewing the page. I never found an address where I could write to Bashar for an answer. Could you help me?

All due respect, you don't know anything about me or what I have or have not experienced. I'm a middle-aged woman with PTSD, FYI. I tend to limit my interaction. I'm not angry or offended or whatever other emotions have been attributed to me.

You said I was in your face. I countered that if you think this is aggressive, you really are misunderstanding the situation. It typically happens to people who equate having their ideas challenged as being attacked. I am not commenting about your intelligence, looks, sex, etc. I am discussing your statements and the statements made by others in this thread.

I make no claims to know you or your situation. You claimed I was in your face. I claim you are overreacting to what you THINK you read in my text.

Well, you know, I was speaking to someone else when you went right back to your original position. I was just hoping that maybe we could have a conversation about ideas that haven't necessarily been vetted scientifically, simply on their own merits.

We can have any conversation you like. For a day now, we've been having the conversation where you complain about the kind of conversation I was having. If you'd rather discuss Bashar's (or anyone else's) philosophy, let's do it!

I may not agree with everything yuo say, and I hope you will understand if I interject my own thoughts as a way of moving the discussion forward.

I also hope you will not take my independent existence as being in your face. Though I may disagree with you, I can still do so from a sitting position, while passing the pipe to you.

I have no interest in whether or not ships, blah blah, whatever. None at all. But it's wrong of me to wish people would stop arguing about it if that's what they're interested in.

Nobody is forcing you to talk about that stuff. But I'm glad you understand that it is still on the table for anyone who DOES wish to do so.

Wait, so is it OK if people discuss things here that you think are bullshit? They don't have to meet the threshold of scientific proof to toss an idea around? If so, I have several ideas I'd like to discuss.

We are equals participating in an open forum. Feel free to discuss anything you like.

Right again. Sorry to have attempted to derail with a different exchange of ideas, carry on. As I said before, maybe I should start a different thread just for kicking around ideas about consciousness and re-imagining society, that may be more appropriate if people just really want to argue and I don't.

I like the idea of that thread.

That said, I am quite a fan of science and do understand your overall frustration. I just don't think that science needs to underpin every single thought in my head every minute of the day.

Science is nothing more than an attempt to understand reality in a testable, falsifiable way. I am attempting to perceive as much of the truth as I can. If aliens are here, I would like to see the evidence.

 

[HempKat]

This is such an odd turn for this conversation to take. Before I address that, let me touch on the part that's actually very interesting to me.

Like Bashar (and Buddhist teachings, and others) I don't believe in objective reality. I believe that all "reality" is subjective. I believe that there is only one thing, with infinite variety of expression. There is only one life, and we are all sharing it.

Thus other people and situations are neither positive or negative; they are neutral. They have only the meaning we assign to them.

So the whole "helping people" thing is a bit of a boondoggle. Not that we shouldn't engage in compassion -- that's my daily quest. But it's not quite exactly on the mark, as opposed to confronting oneself as a means of bettering the world.

Again, I don't really care what his motives are. I'm looking at the information presented. Is it useful? Yes/no.

Who he is or why he's saying these things make no difference to me, as I'm not harmed by considering them, nor am I being manipulated for his benefit. I don't consider making a video and then asking people to pay if they want to own it predatory. (Also note people post hours and hours of his material on You Tube for free, and I've never seen one of them pulled due to copyright like many other videos are.)



Well, I can tell you from my own experience -- I teach Reiki. [And yes, merciful baby Jeebus I know that isn't scientifically proven, please, please, please, I don't give a shit that people won't approve.]

I started out just doing it for free, or for whatever people wanted to donate, because I thought it was such a great thing and wanted to share it freely. What I discovered was that I attracted people who really didn't care that much about it, had the money but didn't feel it was worth paying for. I found that disrespectful -- not so much to me, but to the teaching I was conveying.

At that point I started charging. People had to place some value on it or go elsewhere. Sometimes people balked at paying for it, and I directed them to where they could get the training free from someone else.

I also had a few students who I taught, and then they didn't pay me. I had one who did the first part of the training and it was not what he thought it would be, or he didn't like it, or whatever. He hadn't paid me anything yet, and I didn't ask him to, nor did I ever contact him again. He does retain the training I gave him, though -- that's for life. Once it's done, it's done.

That's OK; me receiving payment isn't so much about me having money in my pocket as demanding a certain degree of investment before I share something so important to me. It's about respect, and insisting that people pony up if they want to participate.

And yes, I know in advance that many people feel that it's bullshit, thanks in advance for not sharing. I promise not to chase you around and thrust Reiki at you.

<3 Tesla

Don't worry, to be honest I never even heard of Reiki until you mentioned it so I have no preconcieved notions about it. They used to feel similarly about Chiropractors and Accupuncture and yet now both of those are established, accepted forms of medical treatment. I believe that when it comes to our understanding of what "is", we've only begun to scratch the surface. So one is well advised to not dismiss things without personal experience. The don't have to try something if they don't want to but if they don't try it they shouldn't judge it until they have so they can speak from experience.

Now as to the subject at hand it's not really fair to compare your experiences as a teacher to someone claiming to be in contact telepatically with a being of superior intelligence and if you want details of that contact you need to contribute money. I think what Anti is saying makes perfect sense. I don't consider myself to have superior intelligence to the rest of mankind but it doesn't take a brainiac to see that giving the human contact the plans for some amazing invention would take care of his contacts needs for everything for the rest of his life allowing him to focus entirely on the contact and relaying that message if that's the point of the site. Plus it would add credibility to the amazing claim of being in contact telepathically with a being of superior intelligence. Surely if this guy were some average joe and he came up with some revolutionary idea that improved the quality of most everyone's life just out of the blue. It would lend itself to the notion that some superior being whispered the idea into his head so to speak.

The fact that he's selling access to this information suggests it's not all it's cracked up to be. Now if it's performance art as you suggest then that's fine, as long as the person behind it makes it clear that's what it is up front. Now if you chose to believe it because you're content then fine. I've been trying to point out that the purpose of the thread was to see what people believe, not change or attack what people believe. Although asking for more details about a claim and expressing skepticism when the person declines to give details isn't exactly attacking. Unfortunately many people don't stop there, many go on and conclude people are idiots, ignorant, etc. and let those conclusions be known. This has the unfortunate effect of keeping people from really opening up about their beleifs for fear of judgement. Which is kind of a buzzkill for this sort of discussion.

 

[DreamsofTesla]

Or rehashing the same old things that all con-men tap into. Your fears, your hopes, your aspirations, etc.

Well, you're not accurate there at all. Bashar consistently challenges people. He's very skilful at not engaging in their defenses, fears, and bullshit, while also being accepting of them and non-judgmental. A lot of people really don't like him, because they can't get over themselves enough to accept the challenge. They're used to people telling them what they want to hear.

A lot of people want to ask him questions about their fears -- FEMA camps, illuminati, scary alien takeover stuff, 2012 armageddon. When they start going in those directions he tells them he's not going to address fear-based ideas.

He actually talks about sort of the way this thread started out, in the video linked below. He discusses what he calls the "folk tales," and the people who make busy debunking the folk tales, and how that cycle prevents the real, pertinent discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukq_chP7u0M

I didn't say that. I am merely speculating.

Other people made that comment, which is why I addressed it.

Like wondering if a real alien who could "channel" into darryl's mind could "channel" into a billionaire entrepreneur's mind just as easily and have access to any capital they ever wanted.

Several problems there.

• Bashar doesn't need money, Darryl does.
• Bashar claims to be one of Darryl's "future" selves, while maintaining that past, present and future are illusions of convenience and suggesting that we challenge our belief in linear time.
• Channeling isn't about some entity choosing some random sucker and barging in uninvited to do what they want. The whole thing is driven by the channeler. So no, the person has to make an invitation. I don't know that a lot of billionaires spend that much time meditating to be able to pull off a stunt like that -- whether it's "real" or not.

For me, I don't make a distinction between imagination and intuition. Is there any reason the two should be distinct?

I looked for a way to ask him. That's why I went to the page. But I got distracted by all the questions that popped into my mind upon viewing the page.

Monkey mind is the affliction, meditation is the cure.

I never found an address where I could write to Bashar for an answer. Could you help me?

No, I don't know how to ask him. But I'm sure there's some information link on the page and they'll tell you how.

You said I was in your face. I countered that if you think this is aggressive, you really are misunderstanding the situation. It typically happens to people who equate having their ideas challenged as being attacked.

I'm not a delicate, insecure little flower. You didn't hurt my feelings, you were just being adversarial with someone who kept repeating that they didn't want to argue. Do I need to scroll up and copy/paste things like "Do you expect me to believe..." or "Should I find ____ credible" or "your argument was..." etc.? Could we just move on instead?

I make no claims to know you or your situation. You claimed I was in your face. I claim you are overreacting to what you THINK you read in my text.

Hey so this is what I mean by tedious. Do we really need to keep going over this until one of us is right and one is wrong? I think you were being kind of rude. I'm over it. You disagree. Can you get over it?

I may not agree with everything yuo say, and I hope you will understand if I interject my own thoughts as a way of moving the discussion forward.

I'm all in favor. I just manage my stress level fairly carefully, though, and avoid things that are unnecessary and unpleasant. We had a really shitty day in the NC state house today, and I think I'm going to pack up and sell my dream house and just leave, re: not dealing with unnecessary stressful bullshit. I don't necessarily converse or associate with everyone.

I like the idea of that thread.

Right. I'm tired now, I'll bring something up tomorrow as long as we can stipulate that no, I can't prove it empirically, and there will be no winner or loser.

I will pose a question to you: Is there such a thing as objective reality?

Science is nothing more than an attempt to understand reality in a testable, falsifiable way. I am attempting to perceive as much of the truth as I can. If aliens are here, I would like to see the evidence.

As Bashar says, "believing is seeing."

<3 Tesla

 

[DreamsofTesla]

I believe that when it comes to our understanding of what "is", we've only begun to scratch the surface. So one is well advised to not dismiss things without personal experience. The don't have to try something if they don't want to but if they don't try it they shouldn't judge it until they have so they can speak from experience.

Well, one distinction I should make is that Reiki (at least as I do it) isn't a directly physical thing. It involves working with subtle energies. I generally do it from a distance, never physically encountering or even seeing a picture of the other person. So for a huge portion of the population, that's automatically bullshit. People often go a step further and claim that it's abusive, that I have no right to accept money, etc. Very few people seem to do as you've suggested.

Now as to the subject at hand it's not really fair to compare your experiences as a teacher to someone claiming to be in contact telepatically with a being of superior intelligence and if you want details of that contact you need to contribute money.

No, it actually translates very well. In fact this debate rages among the Reiki community. Reiki is a form of energy that some people feel and some don't. No one can see it. And it often conveys telempathic (telepathic and empathic) information. It translates directly. And people come at me with a vast array of judgments and hoops they think I should jump through about it. I've gone pretty much private with my Reiki, only doing it for my friends and our animals.

I think what Anti is saying makes perfect sense. I don't consider myself to have superior intelligence to the rest of mankind but it doesn't take a brainiac to see that giving the human contact the plans for some amazing invention would take care of his contacts needs for everything for the rest of his life

I think that's a fundamental misconstruction of the process in a few ways. It suggests that Darryl undertook this endeavor for some external goal. He seems to have started it for purely internal motivations. Who are we to say what his path or process should be? Ultimately he says this is a conversation between himself and another part of himself. Why all the other conditions and qualifications?

allowing him to focus entirely on the contact and relaying that message if that's the point of the site.

Again, I think it's a misplaced assumption, that he woke up one day and said I'm going to start a site and have people pay me for information I channel. I think it happened the other way around; he followed his own interests, as he began having a new experience people enjoyed it, people wanted to hear more. It became too many people to fit in a living room, so he had to rent a room, the participants paid for it.

He devoted more and more of his time and life to it, so he has it help with his bills. I just don't get why that's not feasible. It makes perfect sense to me. Have you ever tried channeling? You can't just start one day and pop off with an hour of the kind of stuff Bashar says. Try it sometime, let me know. It's a real skill, it requires extensive practice and dedication.

Plus it would add credibility to the amazing claim of being in contact telepathically with a being of superior intelligence.

Again, the idea of gaining credibility in the eyes of others assumes an external focus that I don't believe is there.

Surely if this guy were some average joe and he came up with some revolutionary idea that improved the quality of most everyone's life just out of the blue. It would lend itself to the notion that some superior being whispered the idea into his head so to speak.

One of the biggest points that Bashar talks about is challenging this mass delusion we all share; that there's an "out there" out there. Why should Darryl come as a messiah? He's not doing anything that anyone else couldn't do if they also had the desire and put in the effort. Why should his process follow this very specific track?

The fact that he's selling access to this information suggests it's not all it's cracked up to be.

You're entitled to that viewpoint, but it doesn't suggest that to me. What does he ask for his videos, $30 for two hours of information? I don't know, have you ever spent $30 on something that sucked? I have, way more than that.

He doesn't do hardcore marketing or high pressure sales pitches, and his stuff is very accessible. Again, I don't get why he should have to come out of pocket to pay for his web site and photoshopper, pay for the room rentals and travel himself, and do all of this after he completes his full-time job.

Now if it's performance art as you suggest then that's fine, as long as the person behind it makes it clear that's what it is up front.

I really don't follow this logic, though I see people having it all the time. He offers what he offers. He tells people what he believes it to be. He doesn't care if you believe him or not. He doesn't care if you buy it or not. He just puts it out there. He's not telling people they'll have magical powers or be cured of their cancer. He's presenting ideas, that's all.

Why does it have to be pigeonholed? And what pigeonhole could he use that would satisfy each and every critic that exists?

Although asking for more details about a claim and expressing skepticism when the person declines to give details isn't exactly attacking.

I stopped reading when I saw a statement to the effect of, "but we have a conversation where people are saying things that aren't proven, should we let that pass without challenging them?" As though that were some preposterous idea. And my opinion was yes. This isn't an academic paper, it's a smokin' and jokin' lounge. I tend to balk at strict rules of construction when arbitrarily applied (even by me).

Unfortunately many people don't stop there, many go on and conclude people are idiots, ignorant, etc. and let those conclusions be known. This has the unfortunate effect of keeping people from really opening up about their beleifs for fear of judgement. Which is kind of a buzzkill for this sort of discussion.

Right. It had moved into the buzzkill zone for me.

<3 Tesla

 

[bill cooper]

Bonkers

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Case not closed yet then?

They are here and they are here to help us as they told me telepathically when I was little.

Some of us know something we find difficult to prove. I did photograph a UFO but videos were not that great in 1974. Now the videos are on you tube all the time.

Did you see the orb blow up the asteroid just before it hit that Russian city?

I hope it's true and that all of your dreams come true because I do believe in objective reality like a Buddhist. This means that whatever reality is that that's the truth and it seems a no brainer to me but I am a bit slow actually.

I hope we have nice space brothers out there or we are so screwed. So if you think we are quite alone here then dream on!

A giant art collective sounds good to me.

 

[DreamsofTesla]

Did you see the orb blow up the asteroid just before it hit that Russian city?

Yeah, that was nuts!

I hope it's true and that all of your dreams come true because I do believe in objective reality like a Buddhist. This means that whatever reality is that that's the truth and it seems a no brainer to me but I am a bit slow actually.

So you're saying that there is something that's true for all people at all times? That's not subject to personal interpretation?

I hope we have nice space brothers out there or we are so screwed. So if you think we are quite alone here then dream on!

A giant art collective sounds good to me.

I do actually believe that Bashar is genuine. His thoughts are internally consistent. If you haven't heard his channeling, you might want to check him out on You Tube. Bet you'd like him.

<3 Tesla

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Yeah well I have read some of his stuff and he does sound enlightened. He says that they are close to making a major announcement to us. I guess he says that more big sightings will keep occurring for awhile before outright contact and the reveal occurs.

Believers should be very happy to hear the good news that we are about to be released from our enslavement. Enslavement by who? By our govts and corporations that promote delusion and over population to make capitalism continue to enslave our children.

If you have a job you are really just a wage slave. Some day you will do what you love and be free to live and grow as you please. All the gizmos and robots they bring are just the little bonus to safety and freedom.

For my part I will continue to Dream On...hope you have dreams. Even you Anti.

 

[DreamsofTesla]

Believers should be very happy to hear the good news that we are about to be released from our enslavement. Enslavement by who? By our govts and corporations that promote delusion and over population to make capitalism continue to enslave our children.

Well, actually people bring that up to him continually, and what he says is that we *are* our governments. He's very clear that there are no victims.

Not to say there aren't people with agendas running amok. But it comes down to us, our choices and actions, always. The aliens are not here to wave a wand and fix all that ails us. They're here to help us do our own work, to resolve the issues we've all created together.

He does say, though, that they're at the point of being able to make a lot of science and technology available for those who ask.

Some day you will do what you love and be free to live and grow as you please. All the gizmos and robots they bring are just the little bonus to safety and freedom.

I think the part I like the most about what he says is that now things have shifted, to where better outcomes are more easily achieved. He says that for a very long time the earth's consciousness polarity has been more negative than positive. That's how things have gotten the way they are. But as of 12/12, there's more positive energy. And I have to say, it does seem that way. We've gotten some real wins that I didn't expect. Even if that's just me shifting what I look at, it works for me.

<3 Tesla

 

[Seal-Clubber]

Please go play in your room and let the adults talk for awhile.

edit..

 

[Seal-Clubber]

Ask yourself what you will do when faced with an alien beckoning you to enter it's spacecraft for a ride. As for myself the choice would be easy. As long as I can bring my wife and dogs the answer is yes but no dog means no ride.

You can take 1 bag and an apple a day. ..did he really say no dog = no ride? HAHAHAHAH!!! ..and the wife? dare I ask!

They are here and they are here to help us as they told me telepathically when I was little.

Some of us know something we find difficult to prove.

...amazing. You are one of very few They can communicate with sound as well, psychokinesis. Sound is basically a pressure wave, they might assume it as an invasion of personal space, esp if sound is like a shotgun blast to a quiet being. They might be here to help us but I think we all need to remember what humanity is and it`s capability to be great one generation, and a failure the next. Talk to them, 1 for yes, 2 for no.

 

[Anti]

Bashar doesn't need money, Darryl does.

Well, my "give darryl some alien/future tech" argument still stands. And if Bashar could make contact with a Billionaire, the billionaire could easily toss Darryl 50k a year to live on while he does his very important "life work".

Channeling isn't about some entity choosing some random sucker and barging in uninvited to do what they want. The whole thing is driven by the channeler. So no, the person has to make an invitation. I don't know that a lot of billionaires spend that much time meditating to be able to pull off a stunt like that -- whether it's "real" ornot.

#1 You can't make claims about channeling without me asking for evidence that channeling is anything but a hoax. Because all of the people I have ever met who claimed to be channeling something were completely full of shit.

#2 You don't know anything about anybody's meditation practices but your own. Anyone can claim to meditate. Anyone can claim enlightenment. Anyone can claim to be channeling Aliens. (Darryl/Bashar isn't the only one out there making this claim.)

But if someone REALLY is in contact with Aliens through deep meditation, THIS CAN BE TESTED.

If you don't want the test, fine. But stop telling me you KNOW things about channeling unless you can demonstrate those claims. Please?

For me, I don't make a distinction between imagination and intuition. Is there any reason the two should be distinct?

They are two distinct things. I can imagine flying around in space. I can intuitively tell when someone is lying to me.

Monkey mind is the affliction, meditation is the cure.

You have no idea how much I meditate. What I was actually saying (in a nice way) is that once I discovered all the donation links and videos for sale, I lost all of my objectivity. Darryl/Bashar's scam looks exactly like almost every other scam I have investigated in the last twenty years. And yes, I include churches, synagogues and temples in that list.

No, I don't know how to ask him. But I'm sure there's some information link on the page and they'll tell you how.

Monkey Mind is the affliction, meditation is the cure.

You suggested that i contact him. I asked you how I do that. You tell me you don't know either, but you also tell me that the reason *I* don't know is because I don't meditate enough. You don't see the error there?

I'm not a delicate, insecure little flower. You didn't hurt my feelings, you were just being adversarial with someone who kept repeating that they didn't want to argue. Do I need to scroll up and copy/paste things like "Do you expect me to believe..." or "Should I find ____ credible" or "your argument was..." etc.? Could we just move on instead?

YOu are being confrontational and interpreting my comments in a very negative light. Now that I am discussing THAT with you, you want to move on. You don't get to call someone an asshole and then just "move on" because you don't like when they defend themselves. Not even if you meditate a lot.

Hey so this is what I mean by tedious. Do we really need to keep going over this until one of us is right and one is wrong? I think you were being kind of rude. I'm over it. You disagree. Can you get over it?

I was never under it to begin with. But you don't get to pronounce about how rude I am while BEING really rude and then ask me to drop it.

If you want to drop it, the way you do it is by dropping it. Not announcing to everyone your intention to drop it and telling me to get over it.

I'm all in favor. I just manage my stress level fairly carefully, though, and avoid things that are unnecessary and unpleasant. We had a really shitty day in the NC state house today, and I think I'm going to pack up and sell my dream house and just leave, re: not dealing with unnecessary stressful bullshit. I don't necessarily converse or associate with everyone.

Sorry your life is stressful. Monkeymind is the affliction, meditation is the cure.

Right. I'm tired now, I'll bring something up tomorrow as long as we can stipulate that no, I can't prove it empirically, and there will be no winner or loser.

Nobody is trying to make this about winning or losing but you.

I will pose a question to you: Is there such a thing as objective reality?

Perhaps. But we cannot experience it directly.

As Bashar says, "believing is seeing."

As Anti says (to Bashar), "Got any evidence that you aren't just running a scam, Bashar?"

Also, for the sake of this discussion, could you please stop changing your font/size. Whenever I reply to your message, I have to cut and paste my reply from a notepad because your text causes all of my text to be HUGE.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Hi again Anti,

i was assuming you had already immersed yourself in the disclosure project footage, specially from the press conference they held. so my question about dr Greer was/is more about him as the organizer of the disclosure project and their credibility as an organization. i was kinda expecting you to investigate them yourself. my comment about you can't pin this guy down was supposed to be humorous, even with a hint of admiration for your verbal fencing skills.

 

[Anti]

hope you have dreams. Even you Anti.

I have amazing dreams. Lucid dreams. I can fly in my dreams.

But every time I try to fly in waking life.... just doesn't work the same.

Guess I'll have to live in the real world while I'm awake, and fly in my dreams, eh?

 

[Anti]

You post random nonsense which does not make any sense. Please stop trying to destroy and ruin this thread, it makes you seem VERY closed minded. (especially with so many grammar and spelling errors).

Nothing i posted in this thread is random and if you don't understand it... I'd say the failing is on you.

Many people here are having no trouble understanding what I am saying.

Seriously, dude?? complete nonsense.. were you trying to say that factual knowledge can lead to a term of true belief? Belief would be a subset of knowledge. A turnip cant believe in an Alien, I understand. lololol See about those mistakes, it makes it hell in trying to read what you are attempting to say.

Knowledge is a belief that has been tested and verified.

If you BELIEVE in Jesus, you cannot claim KNOWLEDGE of Jesus until you have EXPERIENCED Jesus. If you are rational, you will need some pretty EXTRAORDINARY evidence that jesus is REAL before you claim to KNOW. (Most Christian Apologists do not claim to KNOW, but to have FAITH. I.e. they believe WITHOUT knowing.)

Knowing is belief bolstered by evidence. Hence my statement "justified (evidence) true (evidence confirmed) belief."

And I did not invent that definition, btw.

What was that about playing in my room while adults talk? I respond to your nonsense and somehow i`m acting like a child? Yup, let your friends see you now.

I take a great deal of care to respond point by point to each person's (often redundant) questions. You spew vitriol and make personal attacks.

Anybody who doesn't have a chip on their shoulders where I am concerned can see this. If you can't.....

 

[Anti]

Hi again Anti,

i was assuming you had already immersed yourself in the disclosure project footage, specially from the press conference they held. so my question about dr Greer was/is more about him as the organizer of the disclosure project and their credibility as an organization. i was kinda expecting you to investigate them yourself. my comment about you can't pin this guy down was supposed to be humorous, even with a hint of admiration for your verbal fencing skills.

I watched about an hour worth of testimony on youtube. That amounted to about 15-20 people giving testimony that they all saw things that they could not explain.

I saw zero evidence presented during these testimonies.

How many hours do I need to watch before we get to the evidence?

That's why I asked you to pick out the BEST evidence (the evidence YOU found the MOST convincing) so that I could save time and simply watch that.

 

[Seal-Clubber]

Knowledge is a SUBSET of belief. Knowledge is justified, true belief.

..back to this again.. Knowledge is a familiarity with someone or something. without understanding anything, we will never believe in anything. I know what Plato said, but his definition of knowledge is different in our Latin translation. you read the out-of-date philosophy books, buddy. Quoting a man who spoke Greek, i think it is funny how your old books applied Plato as the absolute value of words and their meaning. Remember the cave? who will believe another world exists if we have no reason to believe.

If I know something as fact, I will believe. Plato's quote is wrong in its applied, Ancient Greek(slag), translation of knowledge to english. I will not base knowledge and logic on something I cant believe is not true and debatable forms of reality. However, I must have information and knowledge for my value of true belief. Observation > social > Fact > Speculation > peers > Knowledge > belief > calculate is how I work. If I went from Observation to belief, i`d be a fucking idiot.. The dilemma, how do we know if fact is true, how do we know we are not being lied to? People will not believe much of anything, as they dont, as i dont, if we can not prove something exists. I understand..

In the allegory of the cave, one man believed, and he struggled. This struggle for the unknown became his meaning for the allegory. Who are we to struggle for the unknown? Many people have lost the passion to survive as we once had. We would rather have knowledge of FACT rather than believe in the unknown. We can explain things much better if we are not blind, therefor lack of knowledge is NOT justified as FACT. Knowledge of a subject does not mean you believe, it means there could be multiple scenarios and possibilities and the creative mind is more successful. Therefor, knowledge is not, Justified True Belief (Plato). Just because you believe something does not make it real. Knowledge of perceived and so-called "FACT" could be as misleading as a magician. Does that mean it is a Justified True Belief?


Since when is the idiot justified verses the truth and reality? Can Justified True Belief change 100,000x times a day as the facts can bring? What if the belief values of some are interfering with the evolution and details of our known FACTS. Is the Earth still flat, buddy? Is that justified as a true belief and a subset of true knowledge? The cave dwellers had justified true belief based on poor knowledge of fact. I think belief is a subset of knowledge for some people, not the other way around. See the problem?

many people are not capable of understanding a dynamic situation, their Truth Belief might get fucked up-.

read wiki..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge

The following quote from Bertrand Russell's "Theory of Knowledge" illustrates the difficulty in defining knowledge: "The question how knowledge should be defined is perhaps the most important and difficult of the three with which we shall deal. This may seem surprising: at first sight it might be thought that knowledge might be defined as belief which is in agreement with the facts. The trouble is that no one knows what a belief is, no one knows what a fact is, and no one knows what sort of agreement between them would make a belief true. Let us begin with belief."

 

[gaiusmarius]

well non of it presents proof, but you say it's not even evidence? find that surprising, the whole thing is based not on 1 piece of evidence that would stand alone, but the combination of testimony and who is making the testimony is what i found leaving my dumbfounded. how can such a bunch of educated people all make such claims while otherwise being totally rational and able to do complicated work. it was a while back i watched the whole press conference, but i suppose i could look for a transcript of it and search out the more interesting ones. but like i said, the mass of testimony is part of the evidence.

 

[Anti]

well non of it presents proof, but you say it's not even evidence?

A bunch of people saying they saw something they can't explain DOES NOT at all lend credibility to the hypothesis that "since we can't explain it - IT WAS ALIENS"

It's evidence that a bunch of people are making claims to have seen something beyond their own experience.

the combination of testimony and who is making the testimony is what i found leaving my dumbfounded. how can such a bunch of educated people all make such claims while otherwise being totally rational and able to do complicated work.

40% of the population of the United States believes that Noah's Ark really happened. Yet they manage to get up and go to work and pay their bills.

it was a while back i watched the whole press conference, but i suppose i could look for a transcript of it and search out the more interesting ones. but like i said, the mass of testimony is part of the evidence.

After sitting for an hour watching testimonies, I got a sense that there may be something out there that we do not yet understand. This is hardly surprising to me. What I didn't see is any reason to jump to the conclusion that since we don't understand it, it was aliens.

 

[gaiusmarius]

religion has been pumped into people since they were born, so that's not quite the same type of belief is it? i mean these people we are talking about are all direct witnesses to what they supposedly saw. so their belief is based on seeing, while religious belief is based on indoctrination and ones study. belief in the religious way is supposed to be faith based, so those believing it don't have to be irrational in their every day lives. but claims about 70 aliens life forms being categorized by the cia are supposed to be factual, so you can't just choose to believe such things on instinct, you need convincing evidence, if you want to remain rational about it anyway.

so what im getting at is that accepting something interesting is going on but not being prepared to consider that said phenomenon is possibly of alien origin seems narrow minded unless one has a better explanation. specially as some of the witnesses state they saw flying saucer type craft as part of their experience.