Aliens, yay or nay?

[lost in a sea]

dumb de dumb dumb dumb,,, stupid thread, tra la la

 

[gaiusmarius]

I WONDER all the time. I never said I was convinced that no alien craft had ever been here.

What I said was that I was UNCONVINCED that alien craft have ever been here.

There's a difference.

What's the difference?

Let's look at my courtroom analogy again:

Did OJ kill his ex-wife?

Your choices were GUILTY or NOT GUILTY. You didn't have the option of finding him INNOCENT.


GUILTY - Aliens are definitely visiting earth
NOT GUILTY - We have seen no evidence that Aliens are visiting Earth
INNOCENT - Aliens are NOT visiting earth.

People keep responding to me as if I vote "innocent". But I don't. I vote "NOT GUILTY".

this guy will not be pinned down, hehe. should have gone into politics, lol. ok apart from the play on words about what you are convinced of not being convinced about, what about dr greer? would you judge him to be genuine? sincere? again does the witness testimony presented not make you start thinking well there must be something to all this after all? or would you say they are all fooled? i was always of the opinion there probably was no ships from another galaxy or planet coming here, but the disclosure project has made me unsure what to believe. if they are fakes i want to know about it. same if they are secret black ops projects, because whats left would be rather momentous.

 

[Anti]

you are responsible in terms of providing credible evidence in regards the other possible explanations you have proposed to my sighting, however. and that's exactly the same standard you have set up for other people's claims about alien and alien tech claims. so it's only fair.

No. I am not making a CLAIM that what you saw was a lie, hallucination, mirage or alien spacecraft. I am stating things that we are aware of happen from time to time on earth that you seem to be dismissing out of hand.

The one making the claim is YOU. YOU say you saw something you can't explain in the sky. YOU say it was an alien ship.

You are the one who must SUBSTANTIATE your claim. I have made no such claims and I *WOULD NOT* make such claims without the evidence to back such a claim at all.

IF I saw something in the sky I could not explain, I would be VERY CAREFUL to say that it was something I had never seen before and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it was. If I said "It was aliens" you can bet that I would have a DAMN good reason for thinking it, and I still would probably use a qualifier like "it SEEMED to be aliens."

plus, I'm not arguing from ignorance, on the contrary, I know that what I saw is nothing we humans have made technologically wise.

I don't know what it could've been, therefore it was aliens. That's an argument from ignorance.

so again, if neither you nor I nor anyone else can provide a human source for such technology, it is some kind of condor sub-species that looks like a silver sphere lol... since you even want evidence that it was a technological apparatus... or a banana tree fart. whatever pleases you.

Again, saying, "You nor I nor anyone else can provide a human source" is an argument from ignorance. "I don't know what it was, therefore it was aliens."

You've totally skipped my square root problem twice. I guess the answer really is blueberries, right?

(That would also be an argument from ignorance: I don't know the square root of 201230981234089123509813048910238, therefore the answer is blueberries.)

and again, I also not bound to prove my claim to anyone, as I'm not in the business of converting you into a believer or non-believer or anything...

Never said you were. But you keep bringing up your experience as if it is evidence. So I am asking you to provide evidence for your supposed experience, because it is an extraordinary claim.

If you don't want to participate, you are not being forced to. But if you make claims, expect them to be questioned, especially if your claims include things that are extraordinary.

I shared my experience, and you are free to take it however you want, like several other members already have told you.

chao pescao

You've been arguing that you know the truth for like 40 or more pages now. But when pressed for evidence, you fall back to "I don't have to prove myself to you." How lame.

 

[Anti]

this guy will not be pinned down, hehe. should have gone into politics, lol.

I will be pinned down, if you state my position correctly.

Here is my position for the 90th time in this thread:

I have SEEN NO EVIDENCE that would cause me to conclude that aliens have visited this planet.

That is NOT THE SAME as if I had said "Aliens have not visited this planet." It's also NOT THE SAME as if I had said "Aliens don't exist."

This should be fairly easy for anyone to see.

I don't understand why you all are having so much trouble with it.

ok apart from the play on words about what you are convinced of not being convinced about, what about dr greer? would you judge him to be genuine? sincere? again does the witness testimony presented not make you start thinking well there must be something to all this after all? or would you say they are all fooled? i was always of the opinion there probably was no ships from another galaxy or planet coming here, but the disclosure project has made me unsure what to believe. if they are fakes i want to know about it. same if they are secret black ops projects, because whats left would be rather momentous.

Being unsure is a very good place to be. You watched Dr. Greer's testimony and it got you to stop believing in INNOCENT and start believing in NOT-GUILTY. Thus, you claim to be EXACTLY where I am, but you think I'm being crafty and dodging the point.

Maybe YOU should've been the politician?

Send me the Link to Dr. Greer's testimony and I will watch it and give you my opinion. I asked for your BEST EVIDENCE from the disclosure project several pages back. Still have yet to see it get posted in the thread. If I missed it already, I apologize.

 

[Anti]

I've gotten over 1000 karma in the past week. Your little "neg" votes aren't phasing me at all, anonymous coward.

 

[bombadil.360]

I don't know what it could've been, therefore it was aliens. That's an argument from ignorance.

that sure is the definition of argumentation from ignorance; however, it does not apply to this case. Why, you ask? because I know what it was not, and again, since man is not capable of such technological feats, obviously it must be alien technology, specially when the odds of life out there are truly big.

this is called Negation in philosophy, also called Not This, Not That. and actually used a lot in science as well, biology and mathematics use it a lot to determine unknown variables amongst known ones.

so you're not only unable to provide evidence to give support to the suggested alternative explanations, but you also cannot properly identify what a true argument from ignorance is.

 

[Anti]

that sure is the definition of argumentation from ignorance; however, it does not apply to this case. Why, you ask? because I know what it was not, and again, since man is not capable of such technological feats, obviously it must be alien technology, specially when the odds of life out there are truly big.

How do you know it wasn't a natural phenomenon? How can you be SURE that some other nation (US, Russia, China, etc) has not secretly developed a new technology and they were test flying it over Venezuela?

so you're not only unable to provide evidence to give support to the suggested alternative explanations, but you also cannot properly identify what a true argument from ignorance is.

I didn't offer any explanations that require evidence. You asked "what could it have been" and I offered many things off the top of my head that it "could have been". I did not make any claim that it WAS a lie or it WAS a hallucination or it WAS a mirage or it WAS an alien.

YOU are the one claiming that since you can't think of anything else it could be, it must be aliens.

If you don't see the flaw there, please refer to my square root of blueberries example on the last page.

 

[bombadil.360]

Send me the Link to Dr. Greer's testimony and I will watch it and give you my opinion. I asked for your BEST EVIDENCE from the disclosure project several pages back. Still have yet to see it get posted in the thread. If I missed it already, I apologize.

I don't mean to step on gaius's toes, but the Disclosure Project is not about Greer's testimonies... it is a collection of testimonies from all sorts of former military personnel as well as former nasa workers and private contractors working for the government.

such testimonies were given at the National Press Club in DC in 2001.

here's an example clip from the testimonies, about 5 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RlSdb1w9Yo&playnext=1&list=PL0F9A5918C6416497&feature=results_main

in the same channel you can find other similar clips.

 

[bombadil.360]

How do you know it wasn't a natural phenomenon? How can you be SURE that some other nation (US, Russia, China, etc) has not secretly developed a new technology and they were test flying it over Venezuela?

I didn't offer any explanations that require evidence. You asked "what could it have been" and I offered many things off the top of my head that it "could have been". I did not make any claim that it WAS a lie or it WAS a hallucination or it WAS a mirage or it WAS an alien.

YOU are the one claiming that since you can't think of anything else it could be, it must be aliens.

If you don't see the flaw there, please refer to my square root of blueberries example on the last page.

it's not that I cannot think that it could have been anything else except for aliens, it is just that alien tech is the most probable explanation.

considering the way it flew, that it was completely silent, a wingless sphere, etc...

it was not a natural phenomenon for sure. it flew intelligently, as it came from the south-west, from a much lower altitude (in terms of land altitude, not the object's altitude in the sky), and flew up into the north-east, in direction of the paramos and the highest elevation peak in Venezuela (about 5000 meters above sea level), so it was aware of the rising of the ground...

I was at about 1800 meters above sea level, so could see it come up from about 700 meters down and go up until I lost sight of it as it entered higher ground.

so no, not a natural phenomenon, not a weather balloon...

and like I said, it is very unlikely that either the U.S, Russia or China were going to test some sort of super secret tech over a densely populated area in the middle of the day.

so again, the most probable explanation is alien tech, and what do they say about the most likely explanation again?

 

[Anti]

it's not that I cannot think that it could have been anything else except for aliens, it is just that alien tech is the most probable explanation.

In order for "alien tech" to be the most probable explanation, the existence of technologically advanced aliens would have to be established first.

You are attempting to establish the existence of those aliens by pointing to the unknown object you saw fly across the sky.

It's kinda like postulating god as the answer to "how did the universe get here?" If you say the universe was created by God, now you are left with the responsibility of providing evidence for God and explaining how HE(she/it/they) got here.

In other words, you have answered a mystery with an even greater mystery. And your explanation requires more evidence than that which you are explaining.

and like I said, it is very unlikely that either the U.S, Russia or China were going to test some sort of super secret tech over a densely populated area in the middle of the day.

Which is more unlikely:

Scenario #1
Some other government tested super secret tech over a densely populated area in the middle of the day

Scenario #2
Aliens exist, they have the capability of traveling between stars, they have noticed our presence, they are appearing in the middle of the day in various parts of the world and somehow all of the credible evidence is being suppressed somehow

If you ask me, the first one, while far from being "established fact" is the more likely scenario.

Please not that I am not making any claims here. I am not claiming that it *WAS* human technology. I am also not claiming that it *WAS* alien technology. I am not even claiming it was technology.

so again, the most probable explanation is alien tech, and what do they say about the most likely explanation again?

I disagree with your assessment of the probabilities. In order to even speculate about the probabilities, we'd need to know much more about the existence of intelligent aliens in the universe. As far as I know, we have evidence of zero intelligence in the universe other than our own.


Also... you're telling me that in this densely populated area in the middle of the day NOBODY took the time to aim their phone at the object and record photos or videos?

Maybe Venuzuela is different. In the US, two people can't have an argument on a street corner without 3 strangers pulling out their phones to record the fight.

I personally have an app on my phone that when I click it, it starts recording video while displaying only a blank screen. This way you can record the police if they are stopping you and violating your rights. The app automatically uploads the video you capture to a secure server hosted by the ACLU.

 

[Anti]

"a brightly glowing, reddish-orange, elliptical object"

(from the link bomb provided a few posts up)

These guys are being much more reasonable. I hear these testimonies talking about "objects". Not space ships. Not aliens.

I'm not saying they couldn't possibly be aliens. I'm saying that's the way you qualify your testimony if you want to be rational. You don't JUMP to the assumption that it was aliens.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

considering the way it flew, that it was completely silent, a wingless sphere, etc...

it was not a natural phenomenon for sure. it flew intelligently, as it came from the south-west, from a much lower altitude (in terms of land altitude, not the object's altitude in the sky), and flew up into the north-east, in direction of the paramos and the highest elevation peak in Venezuela (about 5000 meters above sea level), so it was aware of the rising of the ground...

I was at about 1800 meters above sea level, so could see it come up from about 700 meters down and go up until I lost sight of it as it entered higher ground.

so no, not a natural phenomenon, not a weather balloon...

Air flows up and over mountains. Sounds just like a balloon. I have stood on a mountain ridge and watched an approaching balloon do exactly what you describe.

 

[HempKat]

Knowledge is a SUBSET of belief. Knowledge is justified, true belief.

If you ask me whether I believe that it is LIKELY that aliens exist somwhere in the universe, I will say that I do.

If you ask me whether I BELIEVE that aliens exist somewhere in the universe, I would say that I find it likely.

If you ask me whether i believe that aliens have DEFINITELY visited this planet, I will say that I do not.

If you ask me whether I believe that any of the believers here have presented any convincing evidence at all, I would say that I do not.

Okay well I did ask you the first two and those answers are fine with me because they were the basis for me asking you the third question which you pretty much keep dancing around. That third question being, since you believe it is likely there are alien races then do you think it POSSIBLE they have come here. Not likely, not propably, not definitly, just possibly. Now it's my belief, and I said this before, that it should be no problem, easy, a snap for you to believe that possibility because you answered that not only do you believe it is likely inteligent alien races exist but that you estimate that there are 3 million different ones capable of traveling from one galaxy to another. I would say it's possible just on the basis of existence and that they may have developed space travel just like we have. That they would likely look for life elsewhere just like we would do. That's all based on them being equal to us in space travel. So if there are millions that are actually way ahead of us and able to move between galaxies then that possibility should seem that much greater.

As for the question of has any of the believers here presented any convincing evidence, I wouldn't ask that because that's not the purpose of this thread. Nobody here is under obligation to prove anything to anyone, nobody is affecting by whether or not any of us believe or don't believe in aliens. All of our lives will be exactly the same from one day to the next regardless of what the rest of us think about the existence or non existence of aliens. So why try to prove anything? If you believe in aliens you're likely to be more open to someone else's belief in aliens. If you already don't believe in aliens it is unlikely you're just going to start to believe because of the story of a virtual stranger in a forum on the internet.

Actually what I've noticed is that people that have experienced something like BOG, Bombadil.360 and a few others have been very guarded in how they've talked about it. Likely because they don't want to subject themselves to someone who feels they have the right to put them on trial just because they don't believe them or believe they know better what these people "real experienced". Which is unfortunate because maybe if people didn't feel the need to be so guarded about what they believe, they may open up more and reveal something that might actually give a non believer pause to wonder.

 

[HempKat]

I've gotten over 1000 karma in the past week. Your little "neg" votes aren't phasing me at all, anonymous coward.

Man is someone really giving you neg reps because of this thread? Okay whoever is doing that please chill there is no need and besides as Anti has pointed out it's not going to phase him. Seriously though, nothing being said in this thread really rates negative reps. So what if people believe or don't believe in aliens? I like talking about it because it reminds me of the old days of sitting around with friends getting high and talking about all sorts of unusual things like aliens and ghosts and bigfoot, etc.

 

[HempKat]

that sure is the definition of argumentation from ignorance; however, it does not apply to this case. Why, you ask? because I know what it was not, and again, since man is not capable of such technological feats, obviously it must be alien technology, specially when the odds of life out there are truly big.

this is called Negation in philosophy, also called Not This, Not That. and actually used a lot in science as well, biology and mathematics use it a lot to determine unknown variables amongst known ones.

so you're not only unable to provide evidence to give support to the suggested alternative explanations, but you also cannot properly identify what a true argument from ignorance is.

I'm sorry but how did we even establish this thing you saw was technology? So far all I've heard you mention was a silver ball that moved in ways that seem impossible or at the very least improbable. Now technology could be one answer but I would think it needs more detail such as you say a silver ball and you could make out windows and machinwork on it like various pieces rivited togeter for example, this silver ball could have been something else, some sort of natural phenomenon for example or perhaps some sort of paranormal thing? To immediately conclude its metal because it was silver and that it's technology because it was moving around in the sky is a pretty big leap. Note I'm not saying it isn't alien technology I'm just trying to get at what specifically made you draw that particular conclusion?

 

[legalizeDK]

found this last night. quite interesting about theory of alien tech
why do you even care about neg rep. to hell with neg rep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t5rEmkrVvI

 

[Anti]

Since you believe it is likely there are alien races then do you think it POSSIBLE they have come here. Not likely, not propably, not definitly, just possibly

Of course it is possible. I never claimed it wasn't.

you estimate that there are 3 million different ones capable of traveling from one galaxy to another. I would say it's possible just on the basis of existence and that they may have developed space travel just like we have. That they would likely look for life elsewhere just like we would do. That's all based on them being equal to us in space travel. So if there are millions that are actually way ahead of us and able to move between galaxies then that possibility should seem that much greater.

Sure. I would like to point out that my number of 3 million was pure speculation based on the currently accepted estimate of stars in the known universe. But 3 million civilizations out of 100 billion galaxies is still VERY long odds.

That means that there's still less than a 3:100,000 chance of an alien civilization being near enough to have picked up our radio signals.

As for the question of has any of the believers here presented any convincing evidence, I wouldn't ask that because that's not the purpose of this thread. Nobody here is under obligation to prove anything to anyone, nobody is affecting by whether or not any of us believe or don't believe in aliens. All of our lives will be exactly the same from one day to the next regardless of what the rest of us think about the existence or non existence of aliens. So why try to prove anything? If you believe in aliens you're likely to be more open to someone else's belief in aliens. If you already don't believe in aliens it is unlikely you're just going to start to believe because of the story of a virtual stranger in a forum on the internet.

Right. So telling stories about aliens is pretty much useless! But asking for evidence is NOT.

Nobody is being forced to give evidence. I am not the ruler of this thread. But if you come in here and say you KNOW something, I'm going to ask questions. You are free to not answer or to never read the thread again.

But if you keep posting, I'll keep asking for the evidence.

What's so wrong about that?

This is the toker's den.

It's a place to get high and talk about crazy crap like alien visitations.

they may open up more and reveal something that might actually give a non believer pause to wonder.

If I claim I can grow 20 lbs worth of cannabis using 1000w of induction lighting... people will ask for evidence. I am making an extraordinary claim and people would probably be a bit skeptical.

If my claim is TRUE, whether or not people believe what I say will be unimportant, because I will be able to DEMONSTRATE how I did what i claim I did. I will be able to provide photographs of my techniques and my setup and my harvest. Others will be able to attempt to duplicate my setup and techniques and replicate my results.

If they succeed, we'll ALL grow together.

If not... nobody should believe anything I said.

 

[HempKat]

it's not that I cannot think that it could have been anything else except for aliens, it is just that alien tech is the most probable explanation.

considering the way it flew, that it was completely silent, a wingless sphere, etc...

it was not a natural phenomenon for sure. it flew intelligently, as it came from the south-west, from a much lower altitude (in terms of land altitude, not the object's altitude in the sky), and flew up into the north-east, in direction of the paramos and the highest elevation peak in Venezuela (about 5000 meters above sea level), so it was aware of the rising of the ground...

I was at about 1800 meters above sea level, so could see it come up from about 700 meters down and go up until I lost sight of it as it entered higher ground.

so no, not a natural phenomenon, not a weather balloon...

and like I said, it is very unlikely that either the U.S, Russia or China were going to test some sort of super secret tech over a densely populated area in the middle of the day.

so again, the most probable explanation is alien tech, and what do they say about the most likely explanation again?

Well I see Anti beat me to the same point that being how you are so sure it's technology or to put it the way you're answering how are you so sure it's not a natural phenomenon? A weather ballon is not a natural phenomenon. A natural phenomenon is something like the Hum noise heard in Taos New Mexico

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hum

Another popular example of a natural phenomenon is the Aurora Borealis.

I can accept alien technology as one possibility but for you to conclude it's the only possibility is what creates the arguement here.

 

[GET MO]

I grew out alien dog v1, alien dog v2, alien X uk cheese, and the alien ether cut. all fire! Got some tahoe alien bout to sprout. I say ALIENS? YAY!

 

[GET MO]

oh yeah and this alien bubba, stupid fire!