Thoughts on a new room design, input pls.

[DaveTheNewbie]

well i ordered some Early Bloom Pack from www.Kelp4Less.com. When it arrives im going to give it a run.
Im hoping it will be superior as well as an all-in-one powder that does it all.

On an aside i had another flood in the veg room and i hadnt touched anything in like 6 days and it just happened. I really dont see what else i can reasonably do to protect against them.

 

[cody2white]

Keep the humidity in check

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

well i went back int the grow room
2 hours ago it was fine
now the floor is wet
another slight leak
i didnt touch anything
hardly a drama, but hardly reliable either.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

3 weeks of flowering and things are looking nice.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Defoliation

Defoliation

my thoughts on defo :
my latest grow in the other thread is looking as good as ive done.
ive done bugger all de leafing. max 10 loeaves a week per plant.
I was thinking about it in the shower this morning.

Leaves do a couple of different things. They are more than just solar collectors / energy generators. The perspire. The stomata open up and release water. Its how they create humidity.
If you were to remove all leaves then are you taking away this ability?
It wouldnt show if your growing in a cold climate. But im growing in as hot a climate as there is. Im wondering if defoliation is fatal in hot climates where the plants need to sweat more?

just a thought.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Blumats

Blumats

ok so in my veg cab i have had BOTH plants flood out over the 3 inch saucers and into the tent. I havent touched shit in ages in there, and the saucers were bone dry yesterday. I also got a humidity measuring thingy.

Its 42 degrees (fucking hot : 107.6) and its 18% RH. I dont think i need a dehuey

It seems almost fact that hot ambient temps will cause a blumat flood runaway. I have everything else that i could have sorted. Elevated top off res, wide feed tubes, deep pan saucers under the plants. I now have to choose between an air con and blumats. And i just cant see an air con being viable.

As an aside i also have to look at low humidity and the concequences and solutions.

EDIT : and the low humidity would also lead to the issues i was thinking about regarding defoliation in a hot environment too.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

ok so after having 2 floods in 3 days due to things i didnt do, i went shopping

can you guess what im thinking?

 

[St3ve]

ok so in my veg cab i have had BOTH plants flood out over the 3 inch saucers and into the tent. I havent touched shit in ages in there, and the saucers were bone dry yesterday. I also got a humidity measuring thingy.

Its 42 degrees (fucking hot : 107.6) and its 18% RH. I dont think i need a dehuey

It seems almost fact that hot ambient temps will cause a blumat flood runaway. I have everything else that i could have sorted. Elevated top off res, wide feed tubes, deep pan saucers under the plants. I now have to choose between an air con and blumats. And i just cant see an air con being viable.

As an aside i also have to look at low humidity and the concequences and solutions.

EDIT : and the low humidity would also lead to the issues i was thinking about regarding defoliation in a hot environment too.

Oh my Dave.. When I get much over 90F I freak out, and when I get below 30% RH I freak out. That said, before you do anything else, fix those two problems. I can't say how that would effect the blumats, but I can sure tell you that your plants are not growing to their full potential. Shoot for the sweet spot of around 78-84F in veg, and 75F-78F in flower, and 60-70%RH in veg and 45-55% in flower.

Try a swamp cooler first instead of a regular aircon as to help humidity as well as air temp. Otherwise lose some lights. It doesn't make sense to hit them with all that light if their only growing to a fraction of their potential because of it.

good luck Dave!!

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

ive been playing.

First i drilled a hole in my top bucket and stuck a drain fitting in

then i stuck an extension on the drain fitting and drilled drain holes in the cap

then i stuck the cap on

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I cut some 90mm stormwater drain pipe and stuck a cap on that

then added a top hat and 19mm fitting 4 inches from the top

and to hold it all together i went to my trusty old milkcrates

stay tuned for tomorrows episode : meet the control bucket.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

i didnt get a chance to do the control box today.
i did buy some spongalite and some zeolite. That shits heavy even when dry.

 

[Aminas]

PPK, FTW

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

so the control box :

take a tub, a float valve, and a tank fitting

stick them in. I also added 2 top hats for inlet return from the PPK (not pictured)

gravity fed res attached to float valve. punp goes thru the tank fitting to the PPKs, and the return plugs return the flow.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Damn Dave..

You've moved onto some next level shit. You've got some splainin' to do newbie. Maybe time for a new nic.


I agree with you on the blumat thing. Your carrots can't keep up with the speed at which things dry up in your room. I don't understand though.. how the hell are your plants even performing at those temps. Holy smokes.



What are we looking at here with the double tailpiece. Are you eliminating the lower res or something and just using the reservoir in the larger storm pipe?

What is this masterpiece you've presented before us Dave?


I notice your not putting your float in a koolaid pitcher to prevent being topped off too much during a pulse. You going to be putting a smaller tote in there or something, or does your little mod make that step unnecessary?

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Damn Dave..

You've moved onto some next level shit. You've got some splainin' to do newbie. Maybe time for a new nic.

im not sure yet if its next level or remedial level, we shall see

I agree with you on the blumat thing. Your carrots can't keep up with the speed at which things dry up in your room. I don't understand though.. how the hell are your plants even performing at those temps. Holy smokes.

when my blumats dont fail im pulling over 1gpw, which is enough to make me happy. Ive seen a number of people argue that low humidity isnt a problem, but ive never heard anybody say that extreme temps like that arent a huge problem. Fucked if i know whats going on, but everyone tells me i need an aircon, and so far (blumat failures aside) i dont seem to need one. Some days i just nod, smile, and go with it. Due to heat (i suspect) my plants are VERY vunerable to defoliation and im VERY careful about that.

What are we looking at here with the double tailpiece. Are you eliminating the lower res or something and just using the reservoir in the larger storm pipe?

What is this masterpiece you've presented before us Dave?

the storm pipe is the lower res, just think thin and tall. If i wasnt using the milk crate to keep the top res suspended off the ground, i would have a much shorter tailpiece and a much shorter bottom res. Maybe one day i will make a frame thats low to the ground and chop both down to 1/3 height.

Im going to get controversial here, and if you dont like it thats cool, just bear with me or skip to the next paragraph. Ive never seen/heard/read of anyone that has yet tested the failback wicking side of the PPK. Nobody has had a pump failure and had to rely on it. Im not interested in the pump failsafe of wicking. If my pump fails and the wicking works i wont notice the pumps failed until the wicking res is empty and the plants are dying anyway, so it doesnt save me anything even in a perfect situation. Therefore im happy to have as small a bottom res and possible. If i could get it smaller i would. What i am very interested in is lowering the PWT when medium is wet, and keeping the medium damp when the system dries out a bit. This perfection of medium dampness is the PPKs strength. A small bottom res will be all thats needed for this.

I notice your not putting your float in a koolaid pitcher to prevent being topped off too much during a pulse. You going to be putting a smaller tote in there or something, or does your little mod make that step unnecessary?

im not quite sure what you mean here with koolaid pitchers, but i can bend the brass bar of the float to adjust the water level it fills to, and im aiming for half full at max. Therefore once the float tops off to max half full i still have the other half of the control res as buffer to take the overflow from the 2 pots. And yes im only running 2 pots from this control res at this point, so the overflow wont be much. As long as there is enough water to run the pump in the res i dont need any more, so i can fine tune this as needed. My biggest fears regarding flooding are either if the bottom res doesnt drain fast enough and it overflows, or if the tailpiece jams and the top res overflows. I can always drill more holes in the tailpiece cap if i need to increase drain there, but i want that to be a choke point to increase the saturation aspect of saturation pulsing.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Right now its 39% RH and 36.8 degrees in the tent and its 8:30 pm
Lights have been on for 1/2 hour.

 

[bobblehead]

FF is just concerned that your reservoir will overflow from refilling during feeds. I put a valve in before the float in my veg res so that I can reduce flow to the float. This way while my flood table is filled, there is only a trickle coming out of the float. Things to think about... Your ideal temps would be 25-30C... But it sounds like you're just gonna roll with elongated internode spacing and cal/mag issues related to increased transpiration. Rock on... Happy to see you're ditching the blumats.

Oh yeah and HL45 has had a pump failure from the pump not being plugged in. Some plants lived, some died. The wick is only good as long as it has solution to absorb. I believe his plants were so massive and in such a small container, they were drinking at an incredible rate and ran out of solution.

 

[SRGB]

Thoughts on a new room design, input pls. #525

Thoughts on a new room design, input pls. #525


FlowerFarmer:
So in your 5 gallon buckets.. you've got some lava rock and then your fabric bags sitting on top. The roots are growing out of the smart pots and down into the run-off solution or do you have some kind of wick up into your media.?

This is kinda what I've got going in my tree room with some new totes to deal with my run-off. My plants are an inch or so off the bottom on foam board plants, but when I water heavily the totes don't drain fast enough and the plants sit in a bit of water until they fully drain...or if say directly on the bottom would constantly be sitting in a inch or so of water (likey results in water logged roots correct?)

I'm not sure if this is good or will lead to problems. It did get me thinking that I essentially have a PPK already.. minus the tailpiece. I realize this has something to do with keeping the root zone above the perched water table, but provided that bit of run-off that the smart pots ultimately sit in gets rotated every hour out during the next top fed pulse cycle....wouldnt it essentially be working the same?

--

bobblehead:
My bags sit 2-3" above the runoff solution. It stays at that level, and the plants never sit in runoff. The lava rocks act as a wick... A poor wick... But a wick. Like I said, it's only a 2-3" gap, so they don't have to pull the water up far... The rocks stay moist. Some have a bit of algae... Which is just in the air cause in MI you're never more than 5 miles from a major body of water, and that's a fact.

Roots can pull moisture right out of the air... So yeah, I think it has something to do with keeping moist air around the roots and the roots seek out what they crave... I feed for one minute every 2-4hs once I'm in full swing. Fuck the runoff. It's cheap. My plants always get fresh pH balanced nutes. Anytime the roots dry out too much, my plants don't yield right. I also run a porous mix, so I can get away with watering more often than straight coco.

--

DaveTheNewbie:
SRGB said something similar as his recommended setup and it caught my eye. That's my next short term mod. Each smarty in its own bucket on rocks. He suggests only watering once a day like this

--

bobblehead:
you're correct, SRGB was one of the people I consulted while designing my feed system. Smart person, and very helpful.

--

DaveTheNewbie:
this idea has my mind racing big time. Im wondering if im better having the rocks below or not.
The rocks below will keep the PWT out of the smartpot and give a faux PPK effect.
Not having the rocks below will cause the smartpot to soak up more and kick the blumat into action faster to stop floods

I don't care if I waste a little more nute solution, I just want an efficient system that's reliable. I guess the question is : do I want the puddle in my smartpot or below it. And if the puddle is below it wont the flood level come up higher to get into the smartpot anyway?

This is all about making blumats reliable rather than getting the most efficient growing system available.

I wish I could find the original SRGB post now to review it.


Hi, DaveTheNewbie.

SRBGB`s are specifically designed to encourage root growth through the permeable walls and bottom of the SRBGB. Please consult other products` descriptions for what they were specifically designed for.

Relevant to watering, we found that plants or trees, generally, only require watering once per 24hr period.

This can be accomplished either manually (handwatering) or automatically (timers and pumps, etc.).

In either instance, the goal would be to water only the amount that the specific cultivar actually uses during that 24hr period (rate).

That specific rate of water (or nutrient solution) uptake can be accurately determined, resulting in maximum efficiency of nutrient delivery (zero waste).

Briefly, if a gardener has a Square Root® Garden Bag and waters (by hand or automation) only until minimal run-off accrues in the external basin, roots generally are able to draw up the total volume of that run-off within the 24hr period.

During experiments, we did not note any `root rot` relating to the portion of the roots that grew through the SRBGB into the external basin. Ideally, the moisture in the external basin depletes to a damp to dry state by the end of the 24hr period; resulting in a very shallow amount of run-off. Both the shallow depth of moisture and the short 24hr period between top-feed waterings effectively prevent any conditions that could result in `root rot`. Though we found that `root rot` generally occurs due to lack of oxygen balance to water. Due to the limitation on watering to once per 24hrs, oxygen is constantly available both inside and outside of the SRBGB - provided primarily by the air flow of the garden itself.

While the practice of watering multiple times per 24hr period is common, we did not find it to be advantageous or necessary to sustain root growth or health inside or outside of the SRBGB.

A simple experiment would be to acquire an SRBGB, disperse a cup of hydroton, gravel, aquarium gravel, or preferably pumice underneath the SRBGB, and top-feed only once per day - stopping the top-feed when run-off begins seeping out of the SRBGB. We have noted the approximate level of run-off that we recommend to accumulate in several posts, for each size of SRBGB; roughly a thin film, though the precise amount depends on the air flow and dehumidification of the garden - as some moisture would be lost to evaporation.

Once that amount is determined, the gardener can top-ffed only that amount for the duration of the season. What we found was that over a 24hr period, that run-off would be uptaken by the plant or tree from the thin film of run-off in the external basin; essentially maintaining constant moisture and oxygen balance - permitting the plant itself the ability to assimilate the moisture it actually uses and no more.

This approach is simplest using a handwatering method. The primary barrier to implementing being the traditional or common practice that presumes plants require multiple waterings per day to sustain vigorous growth and root health. We found the opposite to be advantageous; providing only enough water to maintain turgor pressure, while providing an external reservoir for roots to use as their physical needs require.

The gardner can easily observe the actual rate of water uptake of the plant or tree by the reciprocal depletion of moisture held in the external basin. The key being to stop the top-feeding as soon as drainage begins to accumulate a very thin film of run-off in the basin. Over a 24 hour period, the gardener is able to visually guage the rate of water usage and tailor the next top-feed based on the amount that the roots uptake. What a gardener might look for is the run-off level depleting from approximately 1/8 inch to a lightly damp surface at the end of the 24 hour period.

An automated system implementing this type of system can be built, with the top-feed being switched `on` when the thin film of the external reservoir depletes, and switched to `off` when that top-feed has drained through the SRBGB into the eternal basin.

For all practical purposes, the nutrient solution is replaced every 24 hours; with moisture being present constantly and without any waste. We describe this method in our article Drain-To-No-Waste Methods.

We are not posting that the method we describe is the best, just that we found during experiments that it was very simple and provided consistency throughout a season. Again, the most difficult part of the process for a gardener might be to, if they desire to experiment, setting aside the generally accepted practice of watering multiple times per 24hr period, whether or not the plant or tree actually uses that moisture.

In summary, we found it possible to water once per day while still completely recycling the nutrients once per day and using the entirety of the nutrients applied - based solely on the actual rate of water uptake by the plant or tree itself - not any arbitrary application of water based on a timer. The plant or tree itself becomes the timer; signaling the gardener to water or not based on the rate of uptake/run-off depletion.

We hope that this is helpful. Again, we are only describing options for use with SRBGB`s, which were designed to encourage vigorous root growth through the SRBGB - not to contain or `prune` roots within the vessel.

Several illustrations of the progression of the above described method using SRBGB`s during experiments: Square Root® Brand Garden Bag - Roots Gallery.

If you would like for us to remove this post from your thread, please let us know by PM or here. Thanks.

Kind regards,
/SRGB/

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

FF is just concerned that your reservoir will overflow from refilling during feeds.

yup thats why im going to bend the brass pole on the float valve to make sure my res doesnt fill more than needed to run a pump. Im more worried about either of the plant buckets flooding because i dont really have a solution for that apart from slowing the pump down.

I put a valve in before the float in my veg res so that I can reduce flow to the float. This way while my flood table is filled, there is only a trickle coming out of the float.

not a bad idea at all.

Your ideal temps would be 25-30C... But it sounds like you're just gonna roll with elongated internode spacing and cal/mag issues related to increased transpiration. Rock on...

yup its far from perfect but its what i have to work with right now. People grow good plants (i did a 2.2 pounder) outdoors around here, so the heat is not a show stopper, just something to work around.

Happy to see you're ditching the blumats.

as per your earlier advice im only doing 2 plants right now to see what happens and keeping 4 on blumats. If im satisfied that they will make me happy then i will move all over. At this point i would be stunned if they arent a major upgrade.

Oh yeah and HL45 has had a pump failure from the pump not being plugged in. Some plants lived, some died. The wick is only good as long as it has solution to absorb. I believe his plants were so massive and in such a small container, they were drinking at an incredible rate and ran out of solution.

thats what i was trying to say, but you said it better. The wick is only as good as the res under it, and it would have to be massive to last more than a few days. And im not going to notice that the pump has failed until the res is empty and the plants are dying, no matter how big the res is.

lots of really cool stuff

if i didnt want to move away from coco to an inert medium this is what i would do. Ive read your posts and they do inspire me. If the PPK doesnt come thru this is the next plan.

 

[hotboxes]

.

Oh yeah and HL45 has had a pump failure from the pump not being plugged in. Some plants lived, some died. The wick is only good as long as it has solution to absorb. I believe his plants were so massive and in such a small container, they were drinking at an incredible rate and ran out of solution.

I just had this happen to me because a tiny piece of coco got into my float valve line some how and wasn't refilling. When I finally noticed that it was clogged I looked in an probably only had an inch of water at the bottom almost below the wick, another day I probably would have lost it for sure. The plant has been drinking like 3 gallons a day. Just shows you that even PPK's aren't maintenance free and always checking to make sure everything is in working order.