A Demonic Deluge

[delta9nxs]

Might as well make it 3/4" so you never have to upgrade again... Just a thought... Overkill being underrated and all.

good idea! i'm personally committed to 5/8" id garden hose. i think all should be looking at least 1/2" links for sub-irrigation and draining.

 

[delta9nxs]

Thank ya sir'


I actually found some black 3 Gals at the hydro shop for around $3.90/ea so I just went with them after all. They are listed as 3 Gal, but have the same dimensions as the one's you've linked to. I think they will work just fine.


So..
7 Gal Feed Tubs for my tops (no holes aside from tailpieces)
3 Gal Buckets for my bottoms
3 tailpieces in a triangular fashion
Going standard 1/2" bulkhead drains as I'm already setup for it.

And we are going straight Turface (no more hulls), but well rinsed and screened?


Shooting for full saturation pulse as often as possible.

that's the plan! i'll try to start putting some of it together tomorrow.

 

[DHF]

You know.....I told HL 45 after he pm`ed me bout building a 5 light 4 plant setup like I ran Krusty buckets in for long long time , that if I wrapped my head round these plant murderers the only thing I`d change would be the delivery and drain setup for faster flow and removal......and what do we have here ?......

The man himself contemplating and configuring a faster way to supply , oxygenate , and remove/replace waste/stagnant lower bucket juice as we speak.....

When I designed and ran my version of Heath`s "multiflow"/ebb and flow bucket setup for my flip rooms , instead of usin the lil bitty/dinky ass flextubing for feed and drain.....

I hard plumbed 1" cpvc with separate "inline" pumps and separate timers outside the bigass rez`s to blast feed into the lower container`s leftover juice and push all the stagnant O2 up and out through the lava rocks in the upper containers that held the root masses , and.......

Then the feed pump kicked off and the drain pump kicked on sucking juice back to the rez at light speed , pulling fresh O2 back down into the medium as well as the leftover residual juice in the bottom containers till the next timed feed sequence ftw.......and what does that accomplish boys and girls ?......

The exact same "gas exchange" and flush/swappin out juice of this "PWT"/perched water table D9`s got goin in the most innovative and evolving "SAFE" fast hydro setup I`ve EVER seen here to date.....and believe me.....

I`ve seen em all.....anyways....My take on upgrades , but wtf do I know....Just an old ass has been sittin in my rockin chair at the beach with too much time on my hands.....and now....

Waitin on lotsa good shit ta happen D9....so......Handle it.....and.....

Peace....Freds..........

 

[SecondAttempt]

FWIW, and it might not be much, I've grown tomato plants in standalone, hand-watered, PPK units. Coco, Perlite, Gypsum (Ca) and Tomato Tone. That's a very simple mix. Tomato-tone was top dressed a couple of times.

One of the plants that I grew this summer, at the end of the summer I just tucked by the side of the house, mostly out of the sun and left it there like a lazy bastard for many weeks before cleaning it up.

The motherfucker kept growing, living off of rain water.

As long as there is water and the environment isn't too cold, it's very hard to kill a plant in a PPK.

This post has been in my head for the last month... PPK may be the answer to guerrilla growing irrigation. Plants continue to thrive even if neglected. Is there any reason you couldn't bury the res (with holes drilled at the level you want the air gap/screening keeping the dirt out)? When it rains it waters itself, when it doesn't the res keeps the plant alive. Could you use soil or would it stay too moist? I'm asking because I don't see why it wouldn't be the greatest tool ever for guerrilla growing, but I don't know shit so hoping if there's a reason it wouldn't work someone would speak up.

 

[hotboxes]

^^^^Backcountry did a version similar to the PPK but with no pulse feed as he was going to be using it in a gorilla grow. I believe all that he did was bury a 20gal. tote underground with like a 6in pvc with coco wrapped in like a pillow case shoved into the pvc then into the tote. The whole was filled then the plant was set on top. simple wick for the outdoors.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

i think you can grow an 8 ounce plant in a 2 gal container with the ppk.

i'm wondering whether that is something on the 8822 from the manufacturing process because the msds on it says it is basically inert. while turface does contain 6% silica it does not give much off. the rice hulls are almost 20% silica. but i'm running a real stable reservoir ph wise.

Zeolites are marketed by pet stores for use as a filter additive in aquariums.[6] In aquariums, zeolites can be used to adsorb ammonia and other nitrogenous compounds. However, due to the high affinity of some zeolites for calcium, they may be less effective in hard water and may deplete calcium. Zeolite filtration is used in some marine aquaria to keep nutrient concentrations low for the benefit of corals adapted to nutrient-depleted waters.

I pulled the above from Wikipedia. It makes sense to me that the floor dry is holding the calcium. The plants that had the worst effects from mixing NAPA 8822 and coco were cal mag hogs. I had rinsed the plant with a two times the volume flush when I first replanted. It may be that with the NAPA not only needs a good flush but a wash in a calcium nitrate or cal mag solution.

 

[delta9nxs]

You know.....I told HL 45 after he pm`ed me bout building a 5 light 4 plant setup like I ran Krusty buckets in for long long time , that if I wrapped my head round these plant murderers the only thing I`d change would be the delivery and drain setup for faster flow and removal......and what do we have here ?......

The man himself contemplating and configuring a faster way to supply , oxygenate , and remove/replace waste/stagnant lower bucket juice as we speak.....

When I designed and ran my version of Heath`s "multiflow"/ebb and flow bucket setup for my flip rooms , instead of usin the lil bitty/dinky ass flextubing for feed and drain.....

I hard plumbed 1" cpvc with separate "inline" pumps and separate timers outside the bigass rez`s to blast feed into the lower container`s leftover juice and push all the stagnant O2 up and out through the lava rocks in the upper containers that held the root masses , and.......

Then the feed pump kicked off and the drain pump kicked on sucking juice back to the rez at light speed , pulling fresh O2 back down into the medium as well as the leftover residual juice in the bottom containers till the next timed feed sequence ftw.......and what does that accomplish boys and girls ?......

The exact same "gas exchange" and flush/swappin out juice of this "PWT"/perched water table D9`s got goin in the most innovative and evolving "SAFE" fast hydro setup I`ve EVER seen here to date.....and believe me.....

I`ve seen em all.....anyways....My take on upgrades , but wtf do I know....Just an old ass has been sittin in my rockin chair at the beach with too much time on my hands.....and now....

Waitin on lotsa good shit ta happen D9....so......Handle it.....and.....

Peace....Freds..........

well, the speed of flow increase we seek here is a direct response to the observation that the greatly increased media volume needs more drain capability in these larger containers.

but the thrust of this change is directed more at the o2 content in the top media bucket and not the o2 content of the solution.

yes, the solution will have increased o2 because of this change but only slightly. what it is really doing by filling and draining faster is keeping the o2 content of the medium at an ideal point for a longer period of time.

if it takes an hour to drain completely and you are pulsing every 2 hours then approx 1/2 the total time of the plants life is spent functioning in a reduced capacity.

as cannabis growers, we have a finite plant lifespan, x amount of time for that plant to do it's thing. every second of growth time counts towards yield.

in this device the o2 still comes from air, mostly.

we also have some reliability issues that need to be addressed having to do with the smaller diameter lines building up a scum block of some kind.

the faster we get the pulse done the more time the plant has in the "ideal" range.

one thing that needs to be stressed here as we go in search of the "monster" is that we are not using the water for o2 delivery and because of the outrageously huge difference in free o2 molecule content (23,300 to 1) between water and air most effort in that direction will not get huge gains.

what i do think will blow the plant up is direct o2 injection into the root zone between pulses. i'm thinking about ways to do that now.

i reported the media volume of my containers at 5.2 gals at 5" depth. this is wrong. it is 5.9 or almost 6. a lot of medium for indoor.

hydroponics in general have developed a reputation for enhanced growth or speed of growth. the increased yields over other methodology comes from the increased o2 supply over conventional container growing with potting soil and containers that allow the pwt to exist in the root zone.

an o2 supply that is dangerously close to depletion at all times. a bunch of big hungry plants can put quite a demand on a system.

temperature is another big problem as the solution holds less o2 at higher temperatures.

therefore, the whole act of trying to force solution temps down is also forcing growth rate down. the plants roots love 80f. but you can't let them sit in o2 depleted water because of pathogens so you chill it down artificially. keeping the plant alive but suppressing growth simultaneously.

the plant displays a synergistic response to the ppk environment. the total reaction is greater than the sum of the parts would lead you to believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

it is as if we are removing obstacles to growth instead of turbocharging a process.

 

[delta9nxs]

This post has been in my head for the last month... PPK may be the answer to guerrilla growing irrigation. Plants continue to thrive even if neglected. Is there any reason you couldn't bury the res (with holes drilled at the level you want the air gap/screening keeping the dirt out)? When it rains it waters itself, when it doesn't the res keeps the plant alive. Could you use soil or would it stay too moist? I'm asking because I don't see why it wouldn't be the greatest tool ever for guerrilla growing, but I don't know shit so hoping if there's a reason it wouldn't work someone would speak up.

i have never cultivated a cannabis plant outdoors and have never used soil so i don't know.

i will probably set up a couple outside this year though as i've got the place for it now.

 

[Mister_D]

well, the speed of flow increase we seek here is a direct response to the observation that the greatly increased media volume needs more drain capability in these larger containers.

but the thrust of this change is directed more at the o2 content in the top media bucket and not the o2 content of the solution.

yes, the solution will have increased o2 because of this change but only slightly. what it is really doing by filling and draining faster is keeping the o2 content of the medium at an ideal point for a longer period of time.

if it takes an hour to drain completely and you are pulsing every 2 hours then approx 1/2 the total time of the plants life is spent functioning in a reduced capacity.

as cannabis growers, we have a finite plant lifespan, x amount of time for that plant to do it's thing. every second of growth time counts towards yield.

in this device the o2 still comes from air, mostly.

we also have some reliability issues that need to be addressed having to do with the smaller diameter lines building up a scum block of some kind.

the faster we get the pulse done the more time the plant has in the "ideal" range.

one thing that needs to be stressed here as we go in search of the "monster" is that we are not using the water for o2 delivery and because of the outrageously huge difference in free o2 molecule content (23,300 to 1) between water and air most effort in that direction will not get huge gains.

what i do think will blow the plant up is direct o2 injection into the root zone between pulses. i'm thinking about ways to do that now.

i reported the media volume of my containers at 5.2 gals at 5" depth. this is wrong. it is 5.9 or almost 6. a lot of medium for indoor.

hydroponics in general have developed a reputation for enhanced growth or speed of growth. the increased yields over other methodology comes from the increased o2 supply over conventional container growing with potting soil and containers that allow the pwt to exist in the root zone.

an o2 supply that is dangerously close to depletion at all times. a bunch of big hungry plants can put quite a demand on a system.

temperature is another big problem as the solution holds less o2 at higher temperatures. therefore bullshit!

therefore, the whole act of trying to force solution temps down is also forcing growth rate down. the plants roots love 80f. but you can't let them sit in o2 depleted water because of pathogens so you chill it down artificially. keeping the plant alive but suppressing growth simultaneously.

the plant displays a synergistic response to the ppk environment. the total reaction is greater than the sum of the parts would lead you to believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

it is as if we are removing obstacles to growth instead of turbocharging a process, if that makes sense.

So much knowledge hidden in this lil post. I strongly suggest everyone re-read this and absorb as much as you can. World class explaination D9, clearly your understanding of the science behind the ppk's function is right on point. If we had an innovative grower of the year award it would be yours in spades.

 

[delta9nxs]

Zeolites are marketed by pet stores for use as a filter additive in aquariums.[6] In aquariums, zeolites can be used to adsorb ammonia and other nitrogenous compounds. However, due to the high affinity of some zeolites for calcium, they may be less effective in hard water and may deplete calcium. Zeolite filtration is used in some marine aquaria to keep nutrient concentrations low for the benefit of corals adapted to nutrient-depleted waters.

I pulled the above from Wikipedia. It makes sense to me that the floor dry is holding the calcium. The plants that had the worst effects from mixing NAPA 8822 and coco were cal mag hogs. I had rinsed the plant with a two times the volume flush when I first replanted. It may be that with the NAPA not only needs a good flush but a wash in a calcium nitrate or cal mag solution.

i would not use the 8822 with any cutter at all. it doesn't need it and you are in danger of water stress at all times with an air porosity greater than about 35%.

there is a real danger that the medium could dry down faster than either the wick or the pulse can supply. especially in hot, dry rooms. rh 40-50% or less.

i have never used 8822 but with coco i poured an ec 4 solution through it one time and cured the initial display from the ion tie up.

this is in a container that has just been rinsed heavily and has just stopped dripping. going into an already wet medium the ec 4 seems to be about right for the plant after draining and diluting with the existing water in the medium.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

i would not use the 8822 with any cutter at all. it doesn't need it and you are in danger of water stress at all times with an air porosity greater than about 35%.

there is a real danger that the medium could dry down faster than either the wick or the pulse can supply. especially in hot, dry rooms. rh 40-50% or less.

i have never used 8822 but with coco i poured an ec 4 solution through it one time and cured the initial display from the ion tie up.

this is in a container that has just been rinsed heavily and has just stopped dripping. going into an already wet medium the ec 4 seems to be about right for the plant after draining and diluting with the existing water in the medium.

I am mixing coco with the NAPA at a 1 to 3 ratio. With that ratio I get about 31-32% air porosity. The air ratio seems to be good. I am not relying on a wick as I am doing DTW so wicking is not a issue for me.

What I was getting at was that the NAPA may be robbing the calcium from the nutes creating a shortage of calcium for the plants. Looking at the plants that were affected the most I noticed that it was the calcium hungry plants that looked the worst. When I read that wiki statement it seemed to back up that the NAPA which is a zeolite is sequestering the calcium and creating a nutrient imbalance for the plants.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I've never grown outside either but the PPK may change that. I'm going to do a tomato in the back yard this year so I can monitor it closely.

 

[Mister_D]

I am mixing coco with the NAPA at a 1 to 3 ratio. With that ratio I get about 31-32% air porosity. The air ratio seems to be good. I am not relying on a wick as I am doing DTW so wicking is not a issue for me.

What I was getting at was that the NAPA may be robbing the calcium from the nutes creating a shortage of calcium for the plants. Looking at the plants that were affected the most I noticed that it was the calcium hungry plants that looked the worst. When I read that wiki statement it seemed to back up that the NAPA which is a zeolite is sequestering the calcium and creating a nutrient imbalance for the plants.

That's really interesting Ich. I've noticed that for about a week after intial transplant my clones seem to need cal/mag boosted to stay healthy. Honestly just figured it was the coco needing buffered. Now i'm wondering if it's not the floordry also. Easily cured with one or two waterings with 10ml per gal. cal/mag added to the usual 6/9 regiem. Doesn't seem to be as big of any issue with the reused media hmmmmm.........

 

[delta9nxs]

"What I was getting at was that the NAPA may be robbing the calcium from the nutes creating a shortage of calcium for the plants. Looking at the plants that were affected the most I noticed that it was the calcium hungry plants that looked the worst. When I read that wiki statement it seemed to back up that the NAPA which is a zeolite is sequestering the calcium and creating a nutrient imbalance for the plants."

yeah, that's why i was talking about the heavy pour through to satisfy the cation exchange demand.

i get no cation exchange issues in turface.

 

[delta9nxs]

That's really interesting Ich. I've noticed that for about a week after intial transplant my clones seem to need cal/mag boosted to stay healthy. Honestly just figured it was the coco needing buffered. Now i'm wondering if it's not the floordry also. Easily cured with one or two waterings with 10ml per gal. cal/mag added to the usual 6/9 regiem. Doesn't seem to be as big of any issue with the reused media hmmmmm.........

thanks for the kind words! when i ran the atami loose fill with jack's and did not do the heavy pour through i got a couple of weeks of displays and slow growth.

when i did the pour through i got zero displays and rapid growth right out of the chute.

jack's at .666 outperforms the 6/9 ratio using gh in coco.

 

[bad gas]

Thanks for this excellent discussion. Very timely for me as I'm about to germinate my first PPK seeds.

Have a nice day. bg

 

[johnnyrotten]

A Demonic Deluge

Hey D9... I'm getting some mag problems using 70/30 coco/perlite and jacks at 600ppm...

It's been showing very minor symptoms for awhile, just a few older lower fans... I was thinking that I might top dress them with a little dolomite lime since its cal mag... Or I could mix Epsom salts in with jacks...or just feed a stronger mix of jacks... What do you think?

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey D9... I'm getting some mag problems using 70/30 coco/perlite and jacks at 600ppm...

It's been showing very minor symptoms for awhile, just a few older lower fans... I was thinking that I might top dress them with a little dolomite lime since its cal mag... Or I could mix Epsom salts in with jacks...or just feed a stronger mix of jacks... What do you think?

try bumping the jack's to 750 first. you might just have a hog on your hands.

 

[johnnyrotten]

A Demonic Deluge

I've got a Casey jones and a super sour og... The only two I have in flower right now...

 

[DHF]

So higher rootzone temps are more conducive to explosive rootmass and foliage/budsite growth ?......

With my ebb and flow 5 gal bucket setups I never chilled my juice cuz Heath assured me it wasn`t necessary and the buckets were bulletproof......so.....

Although I grew in basements and the rez`s AND containers were up off the concrete slabs , I`d haveta say that after reading this that the elevated juice and rootzone temps must`ve been a good thingy D9 ?........anyways.....

I stumbled into mega humidity Krusty preached from the get by livin where I do , and now I hear yas say the plants do better with a warmer rootzone and........

I`ve agreed cuz my bucket bottom container and upper medium temps stayed in the mid- high 70`s until deep summer , and then climbed more but the plants never suffered and I never questioned it cuz I was just doin what I was told........regardless..........

I`m a lil slow , but I`m pickin up whatchas`re putting down about more O2 in the rootzone between and until the next feed sequence comin from the air instead of higher juice temps holdin less ppm`s in suspension.....so.....

Let`s just blast pure oxygen up their ass between pulse feeds and after drainage and be done with it............

If it were only that easy........Waitin fer shit to come to fruition and then jump on board....

Peace and Respect.....Freds............