A Demonic Deluge

[stagehand099]

Hey, I go off for a well-deserved long break in the lower keys and come back to find that D9 has evolved the process/system yet again. I guess its a good thing I haven't made the jump to PPK's yet....wtf am I gonna do with all those 3.5's with holes all down the sides?

A question for y'all.....how tipsy is the 7 gal pan on top of the 3.5? Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.....looks real good D9. After last summer's heat, I think the spring run will be my last til late September also.

stagehand

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey, I go off for a well-deserved long break in the lower keys and come back to find that D9 has evolved the process/system yet again. I guess its a good thing I haven't made the jump to PPK's yet....wtf am I gonna do with all those 3.5's with holes all down the sides?

A question for y'all.....how tipsy is the 7 gal pan on top of the 3.5? Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.....looks real good D9. After last summer's heat, I think the spring run will be my last til late September also.

stagehand

i was wondering what happened to you!

i used to live in the lower keys back in the late 70's. dove the reef from sand key to american shoal daily and made runs out as far as the tortugas and the cay sal bank in the bahamas.

had a dock on the ocean side with usually 2 boats in the water, ready to go. i love hog snapper, especially the ones with a spear shaft sticking through their heads.

caught my first sailfish off pelican shoal out in the stream.

got drunk in key west. really drunk. really, really drunk. intoxicated, inebriated, blind staggering drunk. poisoned.

in the conch republic, key wasted. blew out a flip flop, stepped on a pop top.

66 pounders from colombia floatin' in the ocean from when they miss the little boats while throwing bales down from the ship. soaked with sea water, it was dried and sold as "seaweed".

a travel writer from new york, after a visit to key west, said that the attitude of the authorities in key west seemed to be one of "sleazy indulgence".

back to monkey business, the 7's that i'm using are very stable on the 3.5 base but after the plants got big i tied them to the caddies anyway.

hey flower farmer, the height of this combo is only 17".

 

[zeke99]

rice hulls most definitely do float and it is a problem with the saturation pulse. you tend to develop a layer of them on top.

after this run i'm going back to perpetual and straight screened turface or diatomite.

with un-screened turface the rice hulls act as a substitute for perlite.

i added them to bring them porosity of un-screened turface up. it works fine in the 3.5's but i think the bigger containers we are trying with the shallower medium depth have a different dynamic somehow. i think the tops dry too fast with the rice hulls at a 5" medium depth.

Cool thanks for that info. Maybe I will take a look at turface. I found out the PBH is only available in massive bulk.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

back to monkey business, the 7's that i'm using are very stable on the 3.5 base but after the plants got big i tied them to the caddies anyway.

hey flower farmer, the height of this combo is only 17".

(edit - nevermind.. filtered your posts and found where you stated they are the ones from tractor supply.. going to have to check another location as my TC doesnt have them for some reason)

Awesome.. forgive me if you've posted before/elsewhere, but where you are locating those 7gal feed pans? Those are what I was looking for when I went out on my journey to scope supplies, but all Tractor Supply had in that fashion was made out of thick rubber and was flexible (sold under the name fortex).

Their website does show "Tuff Stuff" feed pans that lists this one, but couldnt find it anywhere there when in person.. maybe they were out or something and I should try another store.

These look ideal.. is this is what you are running?

SKU Number: 2229854 (tractor supply)

Manufacturers Number: KMD 102
Brand: Tuff Stuff
Horse: Yes
Cattle: Yes
Pig: Yes
Sheep: Yes
Goat: Yes
Mount Style: Floor/Ground Mount
Product Width: 22 in. diameter
Product Height: 6 in.
Capacity: 7 gal.
Product Weight: Variable
Material: Plastic
Color: Black

 

[DHF]

6" tall and 22" in diameter is 792 cu" FF , but maybe the bottom has less diameter and the container`s outsides are tapered .......regardless ...... sounds like a good start.......I`m just sayin.......

A 6" deep and X amount of width "pancake" rootmass with max oxygen holdin capacity , and a smaller rez bottom container sounds exactly like what D9`s preachin........

Hell....Oil changin pans from the auto parts store comes ta mind.......regardless.....

Wider and not deeper is new to me , but knowledge is power , and the truth shall setchas free.......On board and over here on my bucket ......

Show me some shit .......and....Respect.....

Peace....DHF...............

 

[delta9nxs]

yep, that's it. here is a link to the manufacturer. they look like a small company that would be happy to ship direct.

http://www.tufftubs.com/

i got mine at a local tsc but had to have them bring some in on their truck. you can also order online from tsc.

one of the aspects of the ppk that some have trouble believing, and this includes the people at jrpeterslab who make jack's, is that i run with no precipitation without airstones or water pumps for circulation.

the reason i get away with it in this device is the venturi principle, which states that a fluid traveling through a certain size tube or channel speeds up attempting to maintain that same volume of flow through a narrower opening or constriction.

it is this speeding up of the solution as it passes from one part of the system to another that's stops precipitation events from occurring.

so a certain volume of liquid will flow through a smaller container faster than a larger container, achieving a higher turnover rate.

this is why i keep the size of the individual plant reservoirs as small as possible and still provide adequate support for the top container, which has to sit on something anyway.

you need a pump reservoir large enough in both volume and surface area to get you the pulse volume you need and still maintain operating depth for the pump.

hl's plumbing scheme is superior to mine but he will probably need larger pulse lines as he goes to saturation pulsing.

my 2 1/4" id lines per container are too slow and are restricting my pump.

also, i know i just told gregor that going up in tailpiece diameter wouldn't grow a better plant but as i'm finishing stretch now with these new, much larger containers packed with roots, i'm seeing a long drain time. it won't hurt anything but it means i can't pulse as often, which will affect yield.

i'm working on a new drain arrangement now so wait until you see mine before you drill.

 

[delta9nxs]

6" tall and 22" in diameter is 792 cu" FF , but maybe the bottom has less diameter and the container`s outsides are tapered .......regardless ...... sounds like a good start.......I`m just sayin.......

A 6" deep and X amount of width "pancake" rootmass with max oxygen holdin capacity , and a smaller rez bottom container sounds exactly like what D9`s preachin........

Hell....Oil changin pans from the auto parts store comes ta mind.......regardless.....

Wider and not deeper is new to me , but knowledge is power , and the truth shall setchas free.......On board and over here on my bucket ......

Show me some shit .......and....Respect.....

Peace....DHF...............

hey fred, i was using a hypothetical wide 5 gal for comparison but the actual ones i'm using are 18" inside diameter with a rounded bottom shoulder, no corners. they are 22 od.

again, we see the influence the effect of the perched water table has had on plant container design.

since the pwt will exist at the same height in any medium making a container taller than it is wide reduces the pwt relative to volume.

so the entire plant industry makes designs that are taller than they are wide. tapering the sidewalls reduces it too. and indentations and serrations. and air holes speed up the rate of evaporative loss to keep roots from drowning.

all artifice to keep roots from drowning.

 

[DHF]

i was wondering what happened to you!

i used to live in the lower keys back in the late 70's. dove the reef from sand key to american shoal daily and made runs out as far as the tortugas and the cay sal bank in the bahamas.

had a dock on the ocean side with usually 2 boats in the water, ready to go. i love hog snapper, especially the ones with a spear shaft sticking through their heads.

caught my first sailfish off pelican shoal out in the stream.

got drunk in key west. really drunk. really, really drunk. intoxicated, inebriated, blind staggering drunk. poisoned.

in the conch republic, key wasted. blew out a flip flop, stepped on a pop top.

66 pounders from colombia floatin' in the ocean from when they miss the little boats while throwing bales down from the ship. soaked with sea water, it was dried and sold as "seaweed".

a travel writer from new york, after a visit to key west, said that the attitude of the authorities in key west seemed to be one of "sleazy indulgence".

back to monkey business, the 7's that i'm using are very stable on the 3.5 base but after the plants got big i tied them to the caddies anyway.

hey flower farmer, the height of this combo is only 17".

From the mid-70`s to mid 80`s Texas , Louisiana , Mississippi , Alabama , and Florida to the ends of the earth were......

"Smuggler`s Paradise" and .......buncha white boys made their fortune and retired before the cartels took hold , and my uncle was 1 of em.......

Hell D9....Me and you prolly smoked dope together back in the day cuz it was different when everyone was paranoid , but we all gravitated toward each other in some shape form or fashion....and ....

My Uncle had a few shrimp boats outta Islamorada that went waaaay further south for Southern Mexican dope and hid it under ice and "gulf shrimp" before they came back to port , and...I went once or twice.....Ok...every time...... but I digress...........

We usedta laugh at the commercial "mother ships" from Colombia that would dump the 1000`s of bales and head back outta the 12 mile international border limits so the Coast Guard wouldn`t nail their ass with as you talked about the burlap bagged "seaweed" that washed up on the beaches from Key West to Jacksonville........

Ok.....Sorry bout clogging the thread with the glory days , but you started it.............

Peace....Freds............

 

[delta9nxs]

the residential areas in the keys were hilarious after dark!

sun goes down... a powerful boat pulls up in the canal behind the homes and throws shit on the dock.

a few minutes later, on the street side of the house, 2 dudes carrying a couple of duffle bags each scurry across the street and then you hear another boat motor or they throw it in a truck and drive off.

all night long, every night, all over the keys shit is happening! busy, busy, busy!

shrimp boat in Islamorada, argh!

i had a neighbor with a shrimp boat in key west. he would bring me a 5 lb bag of his best every week for 3 bucks a lb.

we shot and caught fish, dove for lobster and crab. it was a good time.

 

[willyweed]

going back to the veg lighting ,i started off 24/0 and swore by it,but after they got too hot one day i switched off the light for 3/4 hours ,put it back on and they seemed to just go better,looking forward to trying the 8-48-4 in a few weeks time also after my dwc gonna try the ppk too,thanks for the tutorial and keep up the great work

 

[stagehand099]

i used to live in the lower keys back in the late 70's. dove the reef from sand key to american shoal daily and made runs out as far as the tortugas and the cay sal bank in the bahamas.

had a dock on the ocean side with usually 2 boats in the water, ready to go. i love hog snapper, especially the ones with a spear shaft sticking through their heads.

I do be lovin' the Hogfish! A buddy of mine has a place on Ramrod Key (27.5 mile marker) and we had a solid month of gettin' after the fish. I ate so much fresh cerviche that my piss smelled like limes. I drank so many ice-cold cervesas that I'm still belching every time I try to speak......it was damned hard to come back to the real world. No Stone Crab claws every day....I'm bummed just thinkin' about it. Key West is now, as you prolly know, a plastic tourist hell that I have little desire to visit, except for a couple of favorite restaurants.....anyway thanks for sharing your memories, and you too, Fred.

stagehand

 

[delta9nxs]

going back to the veg lighting ,i started off 24/0 and swore by it,but after they got too hot one day i switched off the light for 3/4 hours ,put it back on and they seemed to just go better,looking forward to trying the 8-48-4 in a few weeks time also after my dwc gonna try the ppk too,thanks for the tutorial and keep up the great work

thanks willy, coming from dwc you will kill it in these things.

 

[catman]

 

[high life 45]

A Demonic Deluge

New drain set up!

I got 8 more wide top buckets I'm gonna make within the next few days for two 4plant5light set ups.

I guess I will have to wait

It's nice to hear about the good old days.

All the fish talk has me jonesin to set up some aquaponics.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

the reason i get away with it in this device is the venturi principle, which states that a fluid traveling through a certain size tube or channel speeds up attempting to maintain that same volume of flow through a narrower opening or constriction.

it is this speeding up of the solution as it passes from one part of the system to another that's stops precipitation events from occurring.

so a certain volume of liquid will flow through a smaller container faster than a larger container, achieving a higher turnover rate.

so the venturi effect means that your tailpipe flushes quickly but the main pot doesn't. What advantage does this give?

this is why i keep the size of the individual plant reservoirs as small as possible and still provide adequate support for the top container, which has to sit on something anyway.

so if you could put your main pot on a rack system of some sort and wrap the tailpipe in a waterproof sock this would be ideal?

again, we see the influence the effect of the perched water table has had on plant container design.

since the pwt will exist at the same height in any medium making a container taller than it is wide reduces the pwt relative to volume.

in my mind the advantage of the wider shorter pots is due to the wicking properties (almost forgotten about in PPKs nowdays) Wicking has a limit of efficiency in height but no such limit in width.

going back to the veg lighting ,i started off 24/0 and swore by it,but after they got too hot one day i switched off the light for 3/4 hours ,put it back on and they seemed to just go better,looking forward to trying the 8-48-4 in a few weeks time

has anyone tried vegging with 1 hour on 1 hour off. There is no way a plant will start flowering process, it reduces electricity, and most importantly it gives lots of time for the plant to grow in darkness.

 

[bobblehead]

so the venturi effect means that your tailpipe flushes quickly but the main pot doesn't. What advantage does this give?




has anyone tried vegging with 1 hour on 1 hour off. There is no way a plant will start flowering process, it reduces electricity, and most importantly it gives lots of time for the plant to grow in darkness.

The added energy from the venturi effect would have 3 benefits that I can see... 1. Nutrients stay in solution 2. Increased O2 and 3. It stops the top container from overflowing.

You need a constant 4hs of lights off for the stomata to open and gases to be exchanged... So 1hr on 1hr off wouldn't allow for gas exchange and you're losing 4hs of energy input for photosynthesis when compared to 8on 4off x2.



Where are all the ?

 

[delta9nxs]

same to ya but more of it!

 

[delta9nxs]

New drain set up!

I got 8 more wide top buckets I'm gonna make within the next few days for two 4plant5light set ups.

I guess I will have to wait

It's nice to hear about the good old days.

All the fish talk has me jonesin to set up some aquaponics.

why wait? it's no biggie! in the 3.5's i was running half the medium and i don't know why i expected the 1.5" tailpiece to move twice the liquid in the same amount of time but i did.

then i find that it wont so we could double the potential by adding another tailpipe but maybe it would be smarter to just go ahead and install three.

3 would also let you do away with the lids altogether but i think you said you have already done that.

3 installed at the right distance from center would keep the top container in position instead of a single hole in the middle of a lid.

i've got a top marked for drilling on the floor in front of me right now. i'll go ahead and drill it and get some pics up in a while so you can start.

one bigger one would be ok too but i'm having trouble coming up with something that won't trap water.

and the tailpieces are cheap. cheap is good.

 

[delta9nxs]

“so the venturi effect means that your tailpipe flushes quickly but the main pot doesn't. What advantages does this give?”

the tailpipe flushing is not a theoretical dynamic of this device and is not all that pertinent to the operation of the system. I was speaking of the venturi effect more as it applies to the other connections in the system but everywhere the liquid is moved through a smaller opening a new energy is created.

At the molecular level everything is moving all the time but any time you can introduce or cause a new form or direction of movement you are inputting energy.


“so if you could put your main pot on a rack system of some sort and wrap the tailpipe in a waterproof sock this would be ideal?”

it could be made to work using larger diameter pvc pipe but a 3.5 bucket is really just a short section of 10” pipe and is a whole lot cheaper.

“in my mind the advantage of the wider shorter pots is due to the wicking properties (almost forgotten about in PPKs nowdays) Wicking has a limit of efficiency in height but no such limit in width.”

the big advantage is the greater root zone periphery and the increased o2 penetration to all the medium. I personally am very aware of and carefully maintain the “capillary rise potential”. It is the failsafe device in case of a power outage and feeds the plant some of the time between pulses.

“has anyone tried vegging with 1 hour on 1 hour off. There is no way a plant will start flowering process, it reduces electricity, and most importantly it gives lots of time for the plant to grow in darkness.”!

The plant has to have sufficient light for production and then time to put it to use.
Theoretically you could strobe the light with equal length on and off times but the only bulb that I know that gives instant full power is a led.

 

[bobblehead]

so D9... What's to stop you from constructing a PPK flower bed? Cause I'm picking up what you're laying down... and it seems like that would give you the most surface area. Not being limited by plastic containers. I'm envisioning a long grow bed sitting on top of some interconnected tough boxes for reservoirs... the tough boxes can sit on casters so you can move them around like you do now...

Anyway, just tossing out ideas.