Living organic soil from start through recycling

[LITHOS]

Thank you for sharing Lithos; it does make sense that a darker color would indicate a more decomposed product, since humus has that dark rich color. Having said that, wouldnt it be safe to say that a darker peat wouldnt harm a soil mix and could even help it by adding more humus - since this is a major goal in soil building. The aeration is already covered by perlite/pumice/lava rock etc so there so I dont think there would be a risk of a lack of oxygen.
Your observations definitely have me interested though, I think I will do some research as well. When I need more peat I will get some of the Premier brand and see what its like. I will be curious to see what you find out with the microscope; I dont have one yet but its on the list!
One more thing, what are the "properties" you speak of?

This thread is a lot of work!I've been researching spaghnum peat moss off & on all day.I guess this is my punishment for shooting off my mouth with an opinion without facts handy to back it up.

Here's basically what I learned:
Spaghnum peat moss is a great component of a soil mix for multiple reasons;moisture retention,high (110-130) CEC,it's own microbial contribution but the main reason seems to be for soil aeration and drainage.It's large fibrous particles allow air passage by separating small soil particles.Spaghnum peat is naturally resistant to decay due to phenolic compounds in the cell walls.Compost alone has much the same properties plus it provides nutrition but while it starts off nice & fluffy it decomposes into smaller & smaller particles relatively quickly leading to soil compaction=poor aeration and drainage.This resistance to decay make it valuable when growing plants that will occupy the soil for a longer period or if the soil is being recycled.

The website of the Quebec Peatmoss Producers Association was helpful regarding the grading by color - http://tourbehorticole.com/en/peat/index.php Color varies according to the age of the peat and it's carbon content.Younger peat is pale in color and has the lowest carbon content.Carbon content rises with age up to60%at which point it is in some places burnt for fuel.Peat which has decomposed into small unrecognizable particles is called peat humus.The relative colors are measured using the Von Post scale with 10 gradations designated H1 thru H10 with H1 being the lightest shade.Younger peat is considered the most desirable as it is least decayed and has the highest water retention capacity.As to possible changes in Cec as it decays I don't know.I'll leave the chemistry details for someone else more qualified.

No,I certainly don't think you'd do any harm using a darker peat still good but maybe not optimal.You of course don't have to use peat at all if you use other amendments with the same properties.I can't afford to order all the amendments I now crave but anything I do buy I'd like to be the best I can get.

IMO the big-box stores base their decisions on what products to carry based on the bottom line ,not necessarily what's the best,but what's adequate that they can buy a little cheaper,sell a little cheaper & move more units while improving their mark-up.

Clack says Fafard packs Majestic Earth but I can't help but wonder if this is the same product they sell under their own name to the horticulture biz.I doubt it.I've used Fafard 3b mix off & on for a while now and it's a quality product.This time I'm not junking it though,just a gentle remix with amendments.

I haven't made it out yet to collect any samples but I'm going to try & get as many different kinds as I can find locally.May not be easy,nobody seems to stock many garden supplies here in Ohio in Jan.

This thread leads me to some strange links:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/08/bogosphere/

 

[Weyenot]

damn weye...eating healthy!!! i wish my smoothies could boast a list of accompaniments like that...

after watching that clip I feel like eating raw leaves is probably one of the healthiest things I do given the amount of carcinogens I am exposed to on a daily basis living in babylon, ca (inland empire ughhhhhh). holding a cell phone up to my head these days scares me...

Coot - I have been turning my soils 2x per day for a week and they still have a slight hint of ammonia. is this a problem? they are moist, not wet, bordering on dry even...I've been turning the soil and then spreading it out on tarps in the sun to try and speed the drying...but still has got that cat-piss ammonia stench when I stick my nose into the dirt (been picking out brown boogers lol) whats going on here???

You can totally make awesome nutritious smoothies too!! I am finding there is no need to get hung up on particular ingredients; spend a little time learning about what nutrients different plants/ingredients contain(there are alot of items that all have similar nutrients in them so there are many choices) , then you find what is in your area or readily available and start playing around to find out what tastes good to you. It can be fun to experiment, go for it! From what Im learning thanks to the experienced ones kind enough to be sharing with us here the same applies to growing plants too, its pretty cool to begin to see that connection

 

[Neo 420]

What salt based nute can do that and by what mechanism?

My evidence is anecdotal....

I'm not sure of the total "recipe" of what was used but something like this:
Spray with merit/eagle 20 upon obtaining new plants
House & garden root
house & garden veg formula/ sometimes would change
Various other "veg" assortments
Eagle 20 spray going into flower/Maybe merit
House & garden flower/ sometime would change
Bloom booster
various other "bloom" assortments

I was never given the entire recipe..

Cuts taken before flowering
Was hitting over way over 1 elbow per light/ Sometime 2lb per
Pushing to the limit was the game, if you know what I mean...
As cycles progressed with same strain, weight would decrease
Taste and characteristics decreased.
Plant would end up showing strange growth, mutations etc..
Happened several times throughout the years and they would just change strands.
Was a commercial grow..
AND I have heard several similar stories..
I contributed the whole degradation thing to the chemi's. I maybe wrong but when it quacks like a duck, I call it a duck....
Actually now that I think about I believe they degraded all strains they touched...

 

[invocation]

@CC Would bean enzymes be affective in an aerocloner? Would it even aid in the cloning process?

*Just wanted to add that I've learned a lot about spag peat here too. Thanks again for the great discussion.

Now, back to it......

 

[ClackamasCootz]

invocation

Not sure about enzymes but here's one that I know works and this will give you an explosion of roots all along the cutting's shaft - add 1 oz. pure Aloe Vera extract and 1 tsp of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt to each gallon of reservoir water.

This one I have firsthand experience from helping a friend with his goofy set-up - a bonafide idiot but even he pulled this one off.

From the Small Steps Department at the home office in Elk Turd, Arkansas

CC

 

[think_fast]

as much as i squeeze i can't get any water out, so its definitely not over-saturated in my mind...its similar to the consistency of most bagged soils. and lol no i don't have a cat i do have a dog however but she knows damn well to stay away from my soil mixes, and all 4 of the tarps I have layed out have some level of ammonia smell - so thatd be a lot of piss in a lot of areas haha. it is not a strong ammonia smell, you dont smell it unless you bring your face in pretty close. isn't ammonia gas just part of the nitrogen cycle? Hoping to be able to transplant ASAP cause I just brought some ladies into flower a few days ago and they are only in 1gals at the moment

CANN,

How long has this new soil mix been 'cooking'(sorry I can't remember what term is more appropriate here)? If I had to guess I would say you have let it sit for at least 2 weeks since you are thinking of transplanting, but I thought I'd ask anyway. 'Offensive' smells tend to go away after 2 weeks or a little less for me.

What are some crucial details of your water source? a) is it a chlorine or chloramine source? b) What is your method of dechlorinating the water? ie. how much water do you typically dechlorinate at a time and what kind of air pump are you using and what method of oxygenation are you doing? c) how long are you aerating before applying?

 

[invocation]

invocation

Not sure about enzymes but here's one that I know works and this will give you an explosion of roots all along the cutting's shaft - add 1 oz. pure Aloe Vera extract and 1 tsp of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt to each gallon of reservoir water.

This one I have firsthand experience from helping a friend with his goofy set-up - a bonafide idiot but even he pulled this one off.

From the Small Steps Department at the home office in Elk Turd, Arkansas

CC

Hey man thanks! I got a buddy in eugene that's gonna export me some purple barley since the place I found on the net can't ship to me. Meanwhile got my mung beans bubbling.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

invocation

If your friend in Eugene gets to Portland you could ask him about picking up a pound of endomycorrhizal spores (the brand is Mycorrhizal Applications, Grants Pass).

MA manufacturers the specific mixes sold by Advanced Nutrients, Roots Organic, et al. so instead of paying $150.00+ a pound from these esteemed members of the 'community' you can spend about $15.00 a pound.

Simply take a Magic Marker and write 'Super-Duper Orca' or 'Super-Duper Micro-Bennies' to enhance the experience when using it.....

CC

 

[invocation]

invocation

If your friend in Eugene gets to Portland you could ask him about picking up a pound of endomycorrhizal spores (the brand is Mycorrhizal Applications, Grants Pass).

MA manufacturers the specific mixes sold by Advanced Nutrients, Roots Organic, et al. so instead of paying $150.00+ a pound from these esteemed members of the 'community' you can spend about $15.00 a pound.

Simply take a Magic Marker and write 'Super-Duper Orca' or 'Super-Duper Micro-Bennies' to enhance the experience when using it.....

CC

That's totally helpful because I'm sick of paying high prices. That actually raises a question. I've been using "nute pack" that was started by a member on another popular cannabis forum.

My question is, do you really need all those damn varieties of spores for the cannabis plant? Am I going to really see a fuckin miracle? My logic and reading tells me your suggestion (endo species) is all anyone would need. I have used a lot of "nute pack" in transplants applying direct to root. Should be good with harvesting fresh root balls and placing those in root zone of future transplants. Does that even make sense? Also to get all the "Super Herds" one could take a handful of their soil and make tea with it and continue the cycle.

I guess my point here is if you recycle your soil, shouldn't you keep all the variety of beneficial life as long as its a healthy living soil or do you need to keep inoculating with more powdered "bennies" hehe?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Coot - I have been turning my soils 2x per day for a week and they still have a slight hint of ammonia. is this a problem? they are moist, not wet, bordering on dry even...I've been turning the soil and then spreading it out on tarps in the sun to try and speed the drying...but still has got that cat-piss ammonia stench when I stick my nose into the dirt (been picking out brown boogers lol) whats going on here???

What is in your soil mix?

 

[ClackamasCootz]

That's totally helpful because I'm sick of paying high prices. That actually raises a question. I've been using "nute pack" that was started by a member on another popular cannabis forum.

My question is, do you really need all those damn varieties of spores for the cannabis plant? Am I going to really see a fuckin miracle? My logic and reading tells me your suggestion (endo species) is all anyone would need. I have used a lot of "nute pack" in transplants applying direct to root. Should be good with harvesting fresh root balls and placing those in root zone of future transplants. Does that even make sense? Also to get all the "Super Herds" one could take a handful of their soil and make tea with it and continue the cycle.

I guess my point here is if you recycle your soil, shouldn't you keep all the variety of beneficial life as long as its a healthy living soil or do you need to keep inoculating with more powdered "bennies" hehe?

Mycorrhizal Applications started with 2 mixes - a straight endo mix and an endo/ecto mix with Trichoderma spores. These were going to be marketed to the nursery industry on the West Coast. Things went south for reasons having nothing to do with this manufacturer but the love and use of Phosphoric acids - the mainstay of 'modern horticulture'

The endo/ecto with Trichoderma was developed for large nurseries that grow a wide range of plants with some cultivars making use of the endo or the ecto. When you're mixing a hundred yards of potting soil you can't be concerned with stopping the mixing cycle to switch to this or that mix. The Trichoderma provided a comfort zone for nurseries because their use was widespread before MA arrived on the scene.

So what the grow store companies did was take these products and had the kids in the graphics department come up with nifty labels and if you're selling a product being promoted to enhance the customer's garden having as much crap as possible on the label moves product = higher profits.

If you were to take any of the products promoted on cannabis boards and take each spore species and hit Google you can see how much this game is scammed.

I use this product which is not associated with Mycorhizzal Applications in any way at all. You can see that they chose not to play the label game and you'll also notice that the specific species you want to see is the major component in this mix. The price shown is your landed cost - no hidden S&H charges - in other words a straight-up deal.

A kilo is $93.00 which is about 1/2 the MSRP on Advanced Nutrients' mix for a single pound - I don't keep up with their gibberish so I couldn't tell you which product but regardless.

This company has smaller packs down to 100 grams. You don't use much per plant and adding it to teas and other weird ideas is a complete and total waste of money.

HTH

CC

 

[Cann]

CANN,

How long has this new soil mix been 'cooking'(sorry I can't remember what term is more appropriate here)? If I had to guess I would say you have let it sit for at least 2 weeks since you are thinking of transplanting, but I thought I'd ask anyway. 'Offensive' smells tend to go away after 2 weeks or a little less for me.

What are some crucial details of your water source? a) is it a chlorine or chloramine source? b) What is your method of dechlorinating the water? ie. how much water do you typically dechlorinate at a time and what kind of air pump are you using and what method of oxygenation are you doing? c) how long are you aerating before applying?

I mixed up the soil around xmas or a bit after, so its been cooking for almost 3 weeks. Initially I had wet the mix with RO water via watering can, and then a few days later it seemed too dry (dusty) so I gave it a watering with my hose. The hose is tap water that runs through a 10'' cylindrical filter that apparently removes chlorine/chloramine. I dono about those claims...but I only watered lightly with the hose. I'm hoping I didn't do any damage.... and then a few days later the soil got rained on for a bit...so whatever is in so-cal rain lol. Not sure why the ammonia smell is lingering for so long...I would apply an AACT if it weren't for the moisture issue...seems like it would be counterproductive.

Coot - I have a few different mixes that are "cooking". One of them is rrog's soil mix (let me know if he hasnt posted it on here and i'll repost - I got it off a thread on RIU) one of them is a weird variation of subs super soil, and two of them are your soil mix - one with pumice for aeration and the other with rice hulls. Your soil mix smells the best (figures), and then rrog's mix and the supersoil variant smell pretty similar as far as ammonia level goes. At first I thought it may have been the blood meal in the supersoil, but since rrog's mix smells also and it doesnt have blood, I'm unsure. Any thoughts? I have a fresh batch of EM if there is any potential for its use in remediation of this issue...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Cann

I suspect that the ammonia is from unprocessed plant material - the hallmark of bagged potting soils. I haven't seen rrog's specific mix but I have read his posts and he is a knowledgeable organic grower.

Sub-Cools mix, super or not, has never made sense at all. Why would he recommend that gardeners take bagged products of questionable value and try to turn it into something that isn't going to happen?

Here's an idea and hopefully Microbeman can give you better advice but what I would do is to make up a viable AACT and spray to increase the aerobic microbe colonies which are stronger than the anaerobic microbes you're probably dealing with. An AACT certainly will benefit the mixes irrespective of any smells and would, I believe, begin to move your soils in the right direction.

I don't believe that this is going to be Herculean task like me trying to make sense of Sub's mix - that was/is quite a challenge!

CC

 

[Cann]

agreed that subcools mix is not the greatest - I mixed this one up over a month ago and I am kinda hesitant to use it now lol...wish I woulda stumbled upon this thread earlier! Either way, my super soil mix has neem meal, crab meal, and heaps of rock dust - so I'm hoping it will be at least decent for the bottom layer of the pot....

sub definitely doesnt have the understanding of soil biology that most of the people on this thread do...but he has the $$ and the marketing team so it doesnt matter unfortunately...but once you know soil science it does become a herculean task to understand why sub advocates amending decent at best soil with questionable amendments.....

all that being said - I will get started on brewing an AACT for my piles asap. you think EWC and kelp would do the trick? mix up a gallon batch and spray it liberally on all the piles? you think sprinkling some bokashi grain would have any effect? maybe the "good" anaerobes will compete with the "bad"? just a thought...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Don't add LAB in any form - EM-1, Bokashi, whatever. The science on that is sketchy at best as far as a soil amendment. At best.

Go with standard organic processes and you'll be fine. It'll all work out in a few days I'm sure.

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Cann

Here's a couple of ideas for future mixing projects....

Microbeman did a series of tests on Premier Peat (the Pro-Mix company) and it deserves its name. The information and videos are at MicrobeOrganics.com You can go to Ace Hardware's web site and buy it and then have it delivered to an Ace store that's convenient. About $16.50 for 3.8 c.f. which is a fair price. No S&H charges

The perlite industry (worldwide) has an organization deal called The Perlite Institute with manufacturers around the world, literally. Australia, Korea, India and a slew in the USA. Here is a link to the horticulture perlite makers.

There's 75% of your base mix. This also assumes that the local Home Depot doesn't carry Sphagnum peat moss or perlite. In many areas it's standard but if it isn't available then you can buy from other sources without breaking the bank.

HTH

CC

 

[Cann]

hmm...am I wrong or did you use bokashi bran in a soil experiment a few years back? thought i remembered reading that on ***. although i have been medicating a bit too much lately to remember everything I read...and my notes from this stuff is too thick to sort through right now haha

but obviously i trust you on this - i wont add EM in any form. I can get premier at the Lowes in town (score!) for $14 or something damn cheap. I can get pumice, lava rock (red stuff but its chunky, is this bad?), and rice hulls. didnt think you advocated perlite much...have things changed? tomorrow I am going to grab some local EWC - hopefully as much as I can get without breaking the bank. there are a good amount of resources around me I just have to look, but I'm willing to journey to get the goods. people down here are more than clueless when it comes to this kinda thing, as I was myself just a few months ago.

Now that I no longer view cannabis as some exotic superplant and I treat it like any other vegetable the game has totally changed. I have always had an organic mind and true permaculture is what I am striving towards - I just got tricked into thinking that natural systems couldn't be applied indoors..too much time in grow stores and not enough time listening to crazy old coots Now that I have seen the light I am on a misson... constantly out harvesting aloe, dandelions, horsetail (theres some invading my front yard from the neighbors!) etc. collecting leaves, free manure, waste from local cafes, etc. even in the IE these days there are some decent resources..plus I can always trek up into the mountains and harvest some BIM plus all the other goodies I can find up there (rock dust, yarrow, etc.)

would you worry about pollution at all? there are awesome stands of oregano, rosemary, lavender,etc. - lots of great botanicals - theyre just close to a main road in town, plus who knows what the city might spray? shit like that has always got me paranoid down here...poison everywhere you turn

k thats my rant for now, but you get the point. things are looking up, even if I do have multiple cf of "supersoil" (sketchysoil...) that I dont know what to do with at this point LOL

oh yeah and this http://www.plantchicago.com/about/ pure gold.

 

[rrog]

"Rrogs recipe" can be found on page 1 of this thread... Gas' recipe. Then some Coot amendments like the clays. I think I posted it again somewhere in this thread.

Unless it was a really old post where I commented what I added to the bagged soil back from my SS days.

 

[BlueJayWay]

plus who knows what the city might spray?

Cann, if this question crosses your mind when you are looking at some potential botanicals to harvest, I would pass!

Also - where are you getting rice hulls local?

 

[W89]

I wish I could find rice hulls.. I did find some was like 250grams for £3.50 and 10kg for like £35 fucking rick off.. duno where the link is now but was very steep...

EDIT: BJW you could always hit up Alibaba only thing is you have to order 50 metric tons minimum lol