Ashes' 14K Puppet Show

[DHF]

OK thanks guys. I am in the pnw and its get dry as hell(doesn't make sense to me since it rains A LOT) and I know its having negative affects.
Ashes- your grow looks great, sorry i posted this question here didnt mean to try to jack your thread.

Google "VPD"/Vapor Pressure Deficit and it`ll explain why major RH is your friend till end of stretch........

Good luck....DHF............

 

[catman]

go with the whole house humidifier if you're trying to increase humidity. By pushing hot/warm air through the humidifier it'll work even better.

Higher temps are necessary for swamp coolers to have optimal results as humidifiers, so if your running cooler (hemisphere?) these days, your swamper alone might not be enough and you might need to head towards foggers/ultrasonics

I have a whole house humidifier and I've seen that ashes does too. I use a single hose portable AC so my humidifier is essentially an evaportive/swamp cool, if I fill it with cold water as I usually do. I believe I understand why warm and dry air make swamp coolers more effective, but I don't understand why I would add water with higher temperatures than my air to please my plants. I've considered that warmer water might move more into the air and then be diffused, but warmer temps will just make my AC turn on more frequently and remove the moisture anyway. My temp controller keeps the room between 68-73F because I wish to be careful with odor and although cooler temperatures do cause slower growth, I believe I'm better off maintaining VPD... and because it is so, so dry in my region, I believe a cooler ambient is my best option. My humidifier is next to my tents intake and I just don't understand how my plants would prefer air that is hotter and more humid BECAUSE of the temperature of the humidifier's water. I understand my plants would like both warmer and more humid air for better growth, but it isn't an option for me. I also prefer to use colder water because of less of a risk of pathogens. The noise caused by a fogger is too high for my personal preference.

These sustainable numbers must be understood in terms of the whole garden. Bringing your RH up to 70% by your monitor doesn't mean shit to your plants stomata. This stuff has to be understood holistically.

To spell it out. One needs an infrared temperature sensor to measure the canopy.

Google "VPD"/Vapor Pressure Deficit and it`ll explain why major RH is your friend till end of stretch.

I thought I've read it's best to keep the RH up through the entire cycle. I'm ending a current cycle in which the plants are now putting out lots of humidity and my room levels are higher now than they ever have been during the stretch.. because of the climate change in my region... I've sure noticed my plants drinking less as this has happened and as the buds swell.

 

[ashesashes]

but I don't understand why I would add water with higher temperatures than my air to please my plants.

This was never suggested. Bubblehead specified hotter air, and I added that lower temperatures limit the effectiveness of a wick based humidifier.

This is slightly oversimplified, but:

Humidifiers are tools to increase the quantity of water vapor in the air. We put water into a device, move air over it, and it phase-changes to vapor. This phase change steals thermal energy (kenetic energy) from the air-system, and as a result cools down the air-system. A swamp cooler is just a big humidifer, and a big humidifier is just a swamp cooler.

If you did choose to add warmer water into the system, less energy would be required for phase change, and you might find a higher effective humidification process than cold water. It depends on what your goals are.

A dehumidfier and an AC are the essentially same device. Any time you pull humid air over a cold surface to cause it to phase change into liquid water. The only difference is that an air conditioner is designed to exhaust the heat on the other side of the wall, and a dehumidifier puts it right back into the room. Both result in condensate, but neither 'removes the moisture'. They change it's form.

I just don't understand how my plants would prefer air that is hotter and more humid BECAUSE of the temperature of the humidifier's water.

Seems like you do:

I understand my plants would like both warmer and more humid air for better growth...

You choose certain environmental conditions related to your personal comfort rather than your plants. That's fine and good. Your safety (and preference for quiet) is a prerequisite for your plants to remain alive. You seem to believe that they would be more robust with higher temps and humidity, but don't choose to provide that. But don't confuse yourself over the issue.

One needs an infrared temperature sensor to measure the canopy.

If you are trying to measure the localized temperature of the leaf surface, such a device might be useful.

I was trying to reinforce the point made above--that is, it is the RH immediately around the transpiring leaf surface that defines the hydraulic dynamics of the plant's physiology. If the plant's canopy structure, or leaf alignment, or your room's air-moving-devices are allowing pockets of 'stagnant' air to collect around your leaf surface, then it doesn't matter what your meter says.

This is what I meant by holistically; you have to understand the garden as a whole. My RH meters read relatively high relative humidity but I seem to be avoiding most of the classic problems associated with that. Why? Do I have mold resistant strains? Perhaps. But I've suggested above that my higher RH meter readings shouldn't be taken as a sign that high RH in flower is OK and risk free. I believe that my RH readings should be seen in the context of a careful managed canopy with a very specific idea about whole-room air flow that I have implemented.

What a remote thermometer has to do with any of this lost on me. Unless the implication is that a lower surface area temperature than ambient air is an indicator of active transpiration. But that's really reading into something you 'spelled out'.

I thought I've read it's best to keep the RH up through the entire cycle.

The classic risk of high RH are molds and rots. So when flowers start to become more dense, it is an established practice to drop RH below VPD 'ideals' to protect the flowers from damage.

I've sure noticed my plants drinking less as this has happened and as the buds swell.

Are you attributing this to the change of seasons? Or as you appear to suggest, and increase in transpiration (i.e. "...in which the pants are now putting out lots of humidity...)?

If the first is your intention, okay. But it seems unlikely that an increase of transpiration is accompanied by a reduced water uptake. Maybe it was an accident of the way in which you tried to convey your thought.

Good luck in your efforts to try and understand yourself and your relationship to your garden and other members here on ICMAG.

 

[catman]

This was never suggested. Bubblehead specified hotter air, and I added that lower temperatures limit the effectiveness of a wick based humidifier.

Thanks for the detailed reply Ashes. I indeed misunderstood what was suggested

and agree with what has been said.

A swamp cooler is just a big humidifer, and a big humidifier is just a swamp cooler.
If you did choose to add warmer water into the system, less energy would be required for phase change, and you might find a higher effective humidification process than cold water. It depends on what your goals are.

Ya gotta simply such because evaportive cooling is a physical phenomena. You already know this, but for anyone else, what turns a humidifier into a swamp cooler is bringing in relatively large amounts of air into the room to be exhausted out. I doubt my portable AC exhausts anywhere near such high amounts, but I do like how it functions to exchange old gases/air. If I ran it simply as a fan it would run too continuously and would keep my room too dry. The consistency it has on the room is vital to keeping my blumats dialed in.

Both result in condensate, but neither 'removes the moisture'. They change it's form.
You choose certain environmental conditions related to your personal comfort rather than your plants. That's fine and good. Your safety (and preference for quiet) is a prerequisite for your plants to remain alive. You seem to believe that they would be more robust with higher temps and humidity, but don't choose to provide that. But don't confuse yourself over the issue.

It's so damn dry here that vapor that is condensed into liquid and drained from my AC freely evaporates into the air. I only have to drain the bucket when it rarely rains for some time.

You're absolutely correct that I value my personal comfort more than my plants. Being there are so many things I can not control regarding my safety, I try to minimize any risk I can.

I think what I'm really confused about is how much is growth slowed in lower temps with ideal VPD compared to most other gardens which are warmer and have humidity levels too low. I know buds that come down from way up north are generally more dense and appealing to most of any market.

If you are trying to measure the localized temperature of the leaf surface, such a device might be useful.
I believe that my RH readings should be seen in the context of a careful managed canopy with a very specific idea about whole-room air flow that I have implemented.
Unless the implication is that a lower surface area temperature than ambient air is an indicator of active transpiration. But that's really reading into something you 'spelled out'.

Anyone who has put in work knows how important the right tools for the job are and that's all I was getting at regarding a temperature gun. Calculating transpiration and such is very time consuming (unrealistic) and I've read in literature that canopy temps in contrast to the air (like you said) is an accurate way of approximating VPD/ideal conditions.

The classic risk of high RH are molds and rots. So when flowers start to become more dense, it is an established practice to drop RH below VPD 'ideals' to protect the flowers from damage.

Established practice indeed, but Fred has shared several times that keeping RH up throughout the entire cycle yields optimally. One needs to have a holistic understanding and application of proper environmental controls to minimize such risks as you've also said, and I believe have proven.

Are you attributing this to the change of seasons? Or as you appear to suggest, and increase in transpiration (i.e. "...in which the pants are now putting out lots of humidity...)?
If the first is your intention, okay. But it seems unlikely that an increase of transpiration is accompanied by a reduced water uptake. Maybe it was an accident of the way in which you tried to convey your thought.

I'm attributing what I'm seeing to both. As temperatures have rapidly fallen, especially at night in my region, my environment is more humid from the AC running less...thus, my plants shouldn't need to transpire (uptaking water from the roots) as much when they can absorb what they need from the air. I could be wrong about the following, but it makes sense to me that because buds swell with moisture, some moves into the air and such occurs more as buds grow and have more surface area exposed to the air.

I think a lot of 'us' PPK-growers/readers now have a solid understanding of the science about our plants under the ground, but at least I personally don't have a firm grasp on how much our environment above ground effects the biology of our plants. Now to contradict myself, we know the upper and lower parts of our plants work together so considering if we do not understand what really goes on in the air, how could we truly understand our soil/medium? If we are able to maintain certain conditions in the air, can we grow bigger plants with less root mass? The literature we often read is often about dealing with drought or in zero gravity. We know our plants will develop more rootmass in dryer climates at the expense of time and stress depending the strain. So ultimately in air that is too humid, shouldn't we be able to modify our mediums below ground and feeding regimes instead of solely relying on dehumidifiers? When a plant extrudes excessive moisture and co2 that hasn't been used, does that mean we've wasted what has been inputted, or is the success of our plant dependent on such 'wasteful' cycles?

Good luck in your efforts to try and understand yourself and your relationship to your garden and other members here on ICMAG.

I'll make no bones that I'm not sure exactly what I'm after. I'm not sure if I'm willing to deal with the social consequences of being a "grower" despite how much I love my hobby. I know I could do it right with enough time and help from others, but I'm more after a good wife, kids, and a white picket fence. What I'm practicing/learning on a small scale is what I would do if I was to live the dream and manage everything I want. I also just love understanding systems, relationships, and I feel I've learned enough now to appreciate how much is uncertain about plant biology and not only because of the complexity of different environments and personal preferences. I come from a long line of farmers and my family thinks I've abandoned my history having moved to the cities. I would love to be self employed and that means not being at the mercy of the weather.

Anyway, thanks again for the info and well wishes Ashes. I'm often misunderstood because I fail to communicate what I'm thinking, and one thing I've kept inside is the admiration I have for you because you truly share your life experiences surrounding this plant instead of making everything out to be a pissing contest. -catman

 

[DHF]

Hey Catman.....I think what you`ve read in my posts is what that Krazy ass Klown mentor of mine Krusty preached and beat in ALL our heads back in the day bout 70% RH through end of cycle being optimum for optimum results.......but.....

Maybe you never read my posts bout everyone`s plants droppin like flies once the whole weed community back in the day/or it seemed like it started practicin what Krusty preached , and he backed away from it cuz the proof was in the puddin.......but again......

It was ALWAYS a pissin contest with Krusty , and he`d give yas just enough info to fuck up and come crawlin back with questions and beggin for " the cure" cuz he hadta be top dawg , and it all ended up to his detriment in the long run I assure yas.....and....

As Ashes has so eloquently explaned in that once full swellage is in force ,it`s best to dehumidify the room as much as humanly possible till end of cycle along with major air exchange to prevent any airborn nasties from being able to take foothold in said grow area..... see.....

With that circadian rythym of "big" plants suckin juice and sweatin it out/nutrient uptake and transpiration , it`s very VERY hard to keep RH below 50% cuz when shit`s hoonin , they put mega humidity back into the room`s air when they`re dialed and swelling.......and that`s......

Where major air exchange is your friend guaranteed.....I mean....even if yas can`t keep up with em sweatin during lights on with inadequate dehueys , how in Hell will yas keep up with em during lights off when plants flower and expel all the juice they didn`t assimilate , CO2 , and all the excess water vapor from the juice they DID assimilate for swellage........that said.....

70% RH till end of stretch , and as low as yas can keep it below 50% ESPECIALLY during lights off till end of cycle so your big plants won`t rot down and fall into a pile of mulch before yas realize it`s too late...... and 1 more time....

Ashes...Respect for tellin it waaaay more scientifically than my old redneck ass can .... Oh......

For the record , since buncha folks don`t know or realize this...... Plants flower and swell at night/during lights off , and pump resin as a survival mechanism from all the light and excess heat while suckin juice for the swelling process at night during lights on.....

HTH and ....... Peace.....Freds......

 

[ashesashes]

Well Kids,

This is probably my last two pics, unless I find some more stashed away on some other memory cards.

To be clear, as of this posting I'm okay.

But this garden is no more.

As of the beginning of this month, the long process of this garden getting broken down, the equipment parted up, and genetics dispersed to the universe of loosely-affiliated-never-met-thrice-removed-like-minded individuals was largely complete, and as of a week ago, almost everything is accounted for and complete.

I have long promoted the PROs of perpetual gardens, especially for the independent (i.e. one set of hands, start to finnish) or physically limited gardener (where long days may be too taxing to complete).

The glaring CON of a perpetual is trying to shut it down, where numerous tough decisions need to be made with regard to timing and harvests. For example, some flowers of necessity were taken on the very earliest phase of their windows, while some really nice plants that were too established in the system had to go to plant-compost-heaven.

Some nice plants made it (so I'm told) to some nice gardens that needed to fill out. So hopefully, some other good things will come out of that.

Recent equipment upgrades were sold off as well, for practical considerations. This did not work out well from an accounting perspective, as 30% on the dollar for new and like-new equipment rarely makes the books go black.

Oh fucking well.

This garden stayed in productive form through lots of high and low points. It produced lots of nice flowers for (hopefully) nice people.

When it came to it's end, it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't the horror-show it could have been.

Here are two pics of my favorite canopies, that came pretty close to what I was shooting for in this evolving/extinct garden:

Maybe I'll do a *moonshine*esque thread, "The things I learned running a less than $500,000 garden" later. But probably not.

Good luck to all the good gardeners out there doing good work for whatever your reasons. Best wishes.

 

[high life 45]

Sometimes the best thing to do is start fresh.
I hope you start fresh
Glad your ok ashes.
Beautiful pics!!
I hope the lucky soul who got your ppks can figure out your magic techniques and continue on where you left off.
Make sure to catch a peep in my thread in a few days. I'm gonna put up a pic of the biggest plant ive ever seen..

 

[delta9nxs]

fucking awesome plants! what strains are those? and do you have any bud close ups?

those are what i call popeye buds. remember when popeye ate the spinach?

his muscles would pop up on top of each other.

and what is all that black shit on the floor?

 

[village green]

Well Kids,

This is probably my last two pics, unless I find some more stashed away on some other memory cards.

To be clear, as of this posting I'm okay.

But this garden is no more.

As of the beginning of this month, the long process of this garden getting broken down, the equipment parted up, and genetics dispersed to the universe of loosely-affiliated-never-met-thrice-removed-like-minded individuals was largely complete, and as of a week ago, almost everything is accounted for and complete.

I have long promoted the PROs of perpetual gardens, especially for the independent (i.e. one set of hands, start to finnish) or physically limited gardener (where long days may be too taxing to complete).

The glaring CON of a perpetual is trying to shut it down, where numerous tough decisions need to be made with regard to timing and harvests. For example, some flowers of necessity were taken on the very earliest phase of their windows, while some really nice plants that were too established in the system had to go to plant-compost-heaven.

Some nice plants made it (so I'm told) to some nice gardens that needed to fill out. So hopefully, some other good things will come out of that.

Recent equipment upgrades were sold off as well, for practical considerations. This did not work out well from an accounting perspective, as 30% on the dollar for new and like-new equipment rarely makes the books go black.

Oh fucking well.

This garden stayed in productive form through lots of high and low points. It produced lots of nice flowers for (hopefully) nice people.

When it came to it's end, it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't the horror-show it could have been.

Here are two pics of my favorite canopies, that came pretty close to what I was shooting for in this evolving/extinct garden:

View Image​

View Image​

Maybe I'll do a *moonshine*esque thread, "The things I learned running a less than $500,000 garden" later. But probably not.

Good luck to all the good gardeners out there doing good work for whatever your reasons. Best wishes.

Glad you're OK and hopefully tearing down for suitably blissful reasons. Your posts have been a joy to read independent of your grow, although that wasn't too shabby either. Take care.

 

[ashesashes]

and what is all that black shit on the floor?

Dead Root Aphids.

How do you like that, HL? Kicked your ass on quantity of carcasses.

I hope the lucky soul who got your ppks can figure out your magic techniques and continue on where you left off.

No one wanted the PPK. Fucking retards.

Glad you're OK and hopefully tearing down for suitably blissful reasons.

Didn't necessarily see it coming, but these things are always possible. I don't know too many people, but one of the individuals I do know showed some ugly character. So... you got to know when to walk away, know when to run.

So I Gumped on the bitch.

 

[high life 45]

Dead Root Aphids.

How do you like that, HL? Kicked your ass, boyo.

No one wanted the PPK. Fucking retards.

Didn't necessarily see it coming, but these things are always possible. I don't know too many people, but one of the individuals I do know showed some ugly character. So... you got to know when to walk away, know when to run.

So I Gumped on the bitch.

No way!!! Dead root aphids! it looks like spraypaint in Microsoft art.

Nobody wanted the ppk? I guess they haven't see your world class marionette artistry.

It's good to walk away or forest gump away before things go south.

 

[delta9nxs]

i hope you got to keep all that plastic. i love plastic. especially tooled plastic. i'm a plastic kind of guy. extreme plasticity, yes sir, that's what i like. a plastic boy in a plastic world. it exhibited plastic characteristics so i deformed it and it popped right back.

how long were those last two vegged?

 

[Jamorg13]

I have been wondering lately, how the fuck you guys get plants that just have a ridiculous amount of buds on them like the last pic you posted? I mean seriously wtf. I am on my first vert tree grow and my plants of equal size literally have probably 1/4 the weight of that and that 1 light per plant.

 

[delta9nxs]

I have been wondering lately, how the fuck you guys get plants that just have a ridiculous amount of buds on them like the last pic you posted? I mean seriously wtf. I am on my first vert tree grow and my plants of equal size literally have probably 1/4 the weight of that and that 1 light per plant.

are you growing in a ppk?

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

are you growing in a ppk?

at risk of being repeatative, the unwashed masses need a shiney new how-to-make-a-ppk thread for idiots.

i suspect i would be of the many that jumped on the bandwagon if it magically appeared.

 

[DHF]

Stay safe A.......Silence is golden......

Peace.....Freds............

 

[Jamorg13]

are you growing in a ppk?

No I am not. Could you explain lol or point me to a thread?

 

[ashesashes]

D--Might have found a few pics for you of the flowers closer up...
Veg time was a bit long, but they got juggled between lights... Somewhere around 70 with some root binding when they were small (solo sized).

HL--Anyone can hold 'em, it's knowing when to fold 'em that makes the player.

Jamorg--post a thread with pics from your grow. Put a link in your sig. Ask for help.

Here's how I did it... and here's how I do everything:

1. I care.
2. I work at it.
2a. I learn as much as I can from the plants.
2b. I learn as much as I can from the forums.
2c1. I give each girl careful attention daily. It doesn't need to be tons of time, but it does need to be regular. You can't let things get out of hand. You need to be a daily participant. I do not walk away for two months, and expect beautiful plants to greet me when I come back to kill them. Raise them. Love them. Help them express their potential.
2c2. I take the time to train a canopy, the way I think will be the most beneficial for the plants. Then I refer to 2a., and watch how they respond. Then I try to adjust and improve. And then I try to adjust and improve. And then try to I adjust and improve.

So start with caring.

Then, because you care, you work.

And because you care, and you work, you will learn.

Add to it by lurking sites, and subforums.

Learn about light.

Learn about environment.

Learn about photoinhibition.

Learn about root zone oxygen.

Learn about plant respiration.

Learn about growth cycles.

And for the love of god, learn about Passive Plant Killers.

Pay attention.

Love you plants.

Dave--you've already read IF's 'INTERPRETATION' thread. Some of the pics are missing, but the concepts are all there. He introduces 'saturation pulsing' in that shit show of a horizontal scrog he finished the thread with. That's the only 'new' tech not included conceptually in the first two pages of his thread.

The 'problem' is that the PPK is 'conceptually' based. The actual build out is mostly irrelevant.

Any Top-Pulse-Feed/Bottom-Wick with an Air-Gap System will do. But that probably isn't going to make your day any easier right now, is it?

I've build multiple variations, as have numerous other members. The part that is hard to believe is that they all work. And they all work amazing. Some work extra-amazing. If I were to build another, I would change some details. And whatever 'how-to' I developed would become obsolete.

Ahh... too many words.

Long fucking post.

FREDS--just enjoying a few peaceful moments of retirement. But what's this itch I keep feeling?

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Dave--you've already read IF's 'INTERPRETATION' thread. Some of the pics are missing, but the concepts are all there. He introduces 'saturation pulsing' in that shit show of a horizontal scrog he finished the thread with. That's the only 'new' tech not included conceptually in the first two pages of his thread.

The 'problem' is that the PPK is 'conceptually' based. The actual build out is mostly irrelevant.

Any Top-Pulse-Feed/Bottom-Wick with an Air-Gap System will do. But that probably isn't going to make your day any easier right now, is it?

I've build multiple variations, as have numerous other members. The part that is hard to believe is that they all work. And they all work amazing. Some work extra-amazing. If I were to build another, I would change some details. And whatever 'how-to' I developed would become obsolete.

i hear you there, but since many different variations work, any that was posted would be awesome. Im failing to grasp the concept so far. The problem is i have 1 foot wanting to make PPKs and 1 foot trying to fix Blumats, and neither is getting any real progress.

Its really up to me to do what you did and read the long threads and put it all together from there. In my mind im seeing a top fed krusty bucket system with return line that pulses regularly. Krusties have a res built in and therfore wick up. What they dont have is an air gap. Anyway today i have the whole day free for research

 

[ashesashes]

The answer to the blumat problem is a modified catch basin under each plant site.

In a perfect world, you are growing in smart pots.

You have a catch basin with a base radius that is a few inches larger than the bottom diameter of your pot, and a way to elevate it off the catch basin itself just a little bit so that there is air flow under the pot.

The basin itself should be taller than the plates that typically sit under pots... so that alone can move the PWT up closer to the bottom of the Blumat carrot. This should trigger enough pinch to shut off most run aways.

At the end of your main loop, plumb into a bucket with a float valve shut off. In the bucket, run a sump pump with a float trigger on/off. Attach the sump to any old 120 timer, and have it run two or three times a day, pushing those couple/four galons back to the bulk reservoir. This will keep your main line clear of air bubbles.

And now Blumats are pretty predictable.

But they'll never get the root zone O2 enrichment of a top-flood system like a saturation pulse PPK. And they PWT will still be occupying your RZ.

PPK crushed the decently dialed in Blumat system in every way.