Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[St3ve]

hahahaha yea i understand why cause Skinning a plant in veg and in flower is a a joke Period
Now cleaning up sucker buds you know the ones your so worried about in your closet ???
i don't need to read a stupid thread inreality you think i want to lower my yields Dude i make 34 + pounds in 4 grows thats 115 k clown with my last grow being 16,000 watts and 200 plants or should i say trees that sure the fck ain't going to be defoiled

You actually think a defoiled plant is going to compete with a non defoilated plant then your out to lunch
you mention longer veg times for defoilated lol i do 6 - 8 week Veg's on my girls and can guarntee you a defoilated plant will not even come close to it

You were at least respectful at first, now you're just being an asshole. Why are you so intent on trying to disprove this? Someone posted a thread of a technique that improved their grow, and many people have tried it and agree. YOU disagree, and for whatever the reason you're intent on being an asshole about it. What is your deal DrFever?

 

[St3ve]

Hmmmmmmmm lets see i done SOG's total power of 16k 6 k scrogs , 3 k scrogs , almost every technique in the book
Lets look at my credentials - i own a garden center for over 20 years have 15 green houses soil oven over over 80,000 in all types of soils and manures, i plant from seed approx 250,000 plants yearly and your going to tell me that something i never tried lol now thats a joke if you were to mention this in first year hordilculture course you be laughed at pick all your leafs off a plant omg to funny

And there's your answer folks.. he's butt hurt because he's a commercial grower and thinks he has all the answers in his super successful business and experience. No way some internet dummy came up with something that THIS pro couldn't have known.

Maybe you'll listen to a person from science: Bill Nye the Science Guy

 

[St3ve]

Do I really need to add more to refute your claims?

Bassy you should just stop feeding the troll. He can't make it work so he's just going to keep swingin his ePeen around no matter what.

Pig headed is pigheaded

 

[Bud buster]

Very good post Bassy but logic and real numbers have no place here just opinion and whatever numbers you want. A side by side could be done with vertical light next time I'll grow one plant without touching a leaf then the rest with many more branches and bud sites that will be defoliated often. I could do it now but I've defoliated three times and will do it again before transplanting for flower I've only got two plants I wouldn't want to lose any yield and I'd never make the haters happy because the plants have already been defoliated.

 

[Bassy59]

Very good post Bassy but logic and real numbers have no place here just opinion and whatever numbers you want.

You got a chuckle out of me on that one.

 

[Bassy59]

Bassy you should just stop feeding the troll. He can't make it work so he's just going to keep swingin his ePeen around no matter what.

Pig headed is pigheaded

You're right.

 

[sladeofdark]

Im on it!

Im on it!

It wasn't just your mind telling you that you are crazy. Conventional wisdom also works to punish the adventurous.

All the books, vids, pictures, columnists, "experts", etc. have all profoundly advised against this over the last 40 years. Even now the doubters are hopelessly wallowing in what they read when a simple experiment(which brings about personal experience) will show that at the very least defoliating is harmless and when used as a management technique can increase yield in controlled situations.

The only reason to allow a plant to leaf out completely is in outdoor situations when you want as large a plant as possible. In that case you can save deleafing for mid to late summer after full stretch and branching

I don't think snapping or however you remove the leaf is of any issue. In very damp climates you need to take more care but otherwise just dont damage the underside of the stem. I pinch or nip them off as fast as I can with the thumbnail, both handed. I clutch the plucked leaves in my other fingers until I have too much of a wad. That way I can keep working as fast as possible. I make no decisions about which leaf to remove other than if is large enough to be seen and obscuring anything below, it will be removed.

If you having to lollipop, your plants may be getting too tall or you are not deleafing enough. See my pics of the lower growth. Yes, by all means defoliate into bud. In fact if you have not defoliated by then, you are waiting too long. 2zips/plant...how about 10. Of course depends on your density/array.

I'm really going to have to start a SOG vs SCROG thread to discuss this further. There is a lot of wrestling with plant size, veg time, crowding, media, training/bending issues. It may be time to reopen the discussion for the sake of beginners who are trying to decide the path of least resistance. I think I can make a better case for large plant SCROG over any density SOG.

Man you are the man. I hope you are still around over the next year because i am still reading through this thread and i dont know where things are up to date actually. I am going to adapt my 12 site hydro setup to resemble your screen tunnel on this upcoming grow (about 2 weeks) but beside it i will have a classic seemorebuds style SOG running in my homeade aquamist systems. 120 plant dense SOG run b/c i have got to see what its all about for myself. I do understand , however, the appeal to reducing the work. That is what i am ALL about. What you are saying is, SOG is the shit, but managing 100 + plants is not entirely worth the work. reduce the amount of plant management and then it becomes exponentially beneficial again. I did not know what to do when i went from my first grow(soil) do my hydro flood and drain buckets. NO PH or nutrient problems. other than a little heat stress, this 2nd grow was fantastic. But i could have used all of this info at the beginning of the grow. I showed a friend the pics of my plants and the first thing he did was point me to this thread. And now i see why he did. by Bubblelicious plants stretched like crazy. They are a rather low yielder and i wish i didnt cut the lower branches now. I am going to run them again in a couple weeks and maybe one more time afterwards, i think i can increase the yield by tons with this technique. It is a pure indica with HUGE easy to pluck leaves and a low amount of them.
I defoliated them with only 2 weeks left in flower just for the heck of it.. and i swear the lower buds started to fatten up the very next day. The tops have been done, and need to come down for the sake of light bleaching, but getting rid of those leaves made me not have to waste time on the lower buds finishing. they are rapidly finishing now , and they look like they wont be airbuds afterall.

 

[Bud buster]

I can see tons of extra light hitting all those lovely buds now if you had done it from the 6 or 8th node in veg and again every week or two then at the end of stretch and again at 45 day's and again like you did the week or so before you chop call it a early trim it just saves you work later and tightens up any bud that wasn't getting light. You would have many more branches and bud sites giving you more bud. Keep posting let us watch your grow do you have the numbers from that grow so it can be compared use the same system and numbers.

 

[sladeofdark]

I can see tons of extra light hitting all those lovely buds now if you had done it from the 6 or 8th node in veg and again every week or two then at the end of stretch and again at 45 day's and again like you did the week or so before you chop call it a early trim it just saves you work later and tightens up any bud that wasn't getting light. You would have many more branches and bud sites giving you more bud. Keep posting let us watch your grow do you have the numbers from that grow so it can be compared use the same system and numbers.

Thank you for the reply, yes that grow above is still up, i will likely chop em down this weekend and give you all the numbers and stuff. i will grow the same straing (Bubbleliecious) in the same system under the same light immediately after things are disinfected and bleached really well. I dont get mold or anything i just still have a couple gnats (maybe they are aphids) to fight off from my first soil grow in the same space. I hate that they are there and im a perfecitonist about cleanliness and stuff. Its not many, i can count them on one hand, i just want them ALL gone. they did not affect my crop at all. ...anyway, i will also be doing a SCROG this time, now that i have a better idea of how to do it. And i will defoil starting with 8th node or so. Cant WAIT! it will start soon. I will try my best to journal it all in real time.

 

[Bud buster]

Cool I've put out beer cans or bowls with Apple cider vinegar and a couple of drops of dish soap they love it it works very well much better than yellow sticky pads. Bleach everything do your dishes have a lid on any food garbage cans and take your empty pop cans to the depot the cans and garbage is usually how they start so keep some traps all around the house that's how I got rid of my latest batch they started in the kitchen garbage with no lid I had a step can in my bathroom that I switched for food scraps and with new pop cans just put them in a garbage bag and tie the top every time they should be gone in a week and cook your soil. You can use juice wine or beer anything with sugar just make sure you use some dish soap that's what drowns them.

 

[medicalmj]

Its hard to say without pics.

However.. if you already feel you have the canopy you need, and don't need the extra growth, then by all means strip them down. Then they will recover and be a little more stout by flip time.

At least that's what I would do for sure.

St3ve: Well I must say after following the advice of this thread the verdict is clearly in, drum roll, I have quadrupled my tops. I went from having about 12-16 tops per plant(lots of LST, supper cropping) that had huge leaves that covered the rest of the potential tops. Stuff would try and get to the light by bolting 3" in a day making for a weak stem and pissy top. After day 2 of stripping down everything over about inch or so, I have about 50-60 tops that are growing evenly, and they are starting to attaining the stoutness that we all know you need in a top for it get a thick bud. So I'll have 4 plants for a total of 200-250 tops under a 1k. I just might pass the 1GPW on this run!!! And that's the bench mark for getting shit right.

So, for all who are learry, this is an integral part of any training (ie. LST, supercropping, scrog etc) regiment. Perhaps a no leaf sativa doesnt need it, but my super size leaf producer does. without it, it's like it negates the whole training process, they go hand in glove. Now, as its been noted, I think its best done after you have an established root system. It's like at first the leaves are feeding the root system, so wait, then when your root system is well developed proceed with this high yield technique. My plants are not stressed and have grown almost an inch in one day with the most important part being that those covered up tops that couldnt grow do too lack of light have NOT bolted for the light, but have thickened up and are taking the form of a respectable top. Now I must say I do have pretty rocking hydro system. So for some the results that I am seeing might take 2x as long, but it will still happpen so long as you have a healthy root system.

Look at it like this, it's like lollipoppin in veg in order to make the plant do what we want. And that's to create more tops, well at that's what I want. I went from 50-60 total tops to 200-250 total tops. My canopy is completely level. And in one more week they'll have that look (accumulation of floral hormones) of a top that'll give some weight.

So, THANKS St3ve!!!

 

[Bassy59]

Well done medicalmj!! Good to hear and that's what it's all about.

 

[St3ve]

St3ve: Well I must say after following the advice of this thread the verdict is clearly in, drum roll, I have quadrupled my tops. I went from having about 12-16 tops per plant(lots of LST, supper cropping) that had huge leaves that covered the rest of the potential tops. Stuff would try and get to the light by bolting 3" in a day making for a weak stem and pissy top. After day 2 of stripping down everything over about inch or so, I have about 50-60 tops that are growing evenly, and they are starting to attaining the stoutness that we all know you need in a top for it get a thick bud. So I'll have 4 plants for a total of 200-250 tops under a 1k. I just might pass the 1GPW on this run!!! And that's the bench mark for getting shit right.

So, for all who are learry, this is an integral part of any training (ie. LST, supercropping, scrog etc) regiment. Perhaps a no leaf sativa doesnt need it, but my super size leaf producer does. without it, it's like it negates the whole training process, they go hand in glove. Now, as its been noted, I think its best done after you have an established root system. It's like at first the leaves are feeding the root system, so wait, then when your root system is well developed proceed with this high yield technique. My plants are not stressed and have grown almost an inch in one day with the most important part being that those covered up tops that couldnt grow do too lack of light have NOT bolted for the light, but have thickened up and are taking the form of a respectable top. Now I must say I do have pretty rocking hydro system. So for some the results that I am seeing might take 2x as long, but it will still happpen so long as you have a healthy root system.

Look at it like this, it's like lollipoppin in veg in order to make the plant do what we want. And that's to create more tops, well at that's what I want. I went from 50-60 total tops to 200-250 total tops. My canopy is completely level. And in one more week they'll have that look (accumulation of floral hormones) of a top that'll give some weight.

So, THANKS St3ve!!!

Sounds like its benefiting your garden nicely. Can't wait to see some pics, or at least hear how things progress and finish up. As always though, don't count your yield till its dried and on the scale!! Don't want to be disappointed.

And you're welcome, but I can't take any credit. Thanks to K33f for sharing is experience with us all!

 

[sladeofdark]

harvest time for me.. i will be able to compare the technique next year. Gosh that sounds so far away, but the 3 months always go by fast.

 

[sladeofdark]

Nice SCROG. My take on SCROG is a lighter weight screen. Some SCROG advocates use a hardware mesh as you have there as the vehicle for training the branches. My twist on this is to lighten up and minimize the mesh to a net of just a very few lines of mason's twine. Get the braided type as it has much more stretch. A PVC frame with legs of a proper height is simple to construct. Tying up a net is simple and requires only 4 knots regardless of how many crosslines you desire. It can be untied at harvest an slipped out as one piece and reused next time before cutting any branches. Makes harvesting a scrog much easier. The net acts as more of a rest for bent and twisted branches. I do most of the training above the net instead of under like in most scrogs. The net is only 16" above the base and plants do not extend more than about 8-10" above the net. My rule of thumb for training is when a branch is more than about 8" vertical it is time to bend it horizontal, lay it on the net and deleaf it.

Nugget that i have been waiting for!!!. This harvest was TERRIBLE, all due to stretching. If only i had found this thread 2 months ago. Oh well, gotta stay positive. What strain do you grow there keef? did i read Diesel somewhere?

 

[medicalmj]

Update on my recent "pruning", aka defoliating.

Had I not done this I would not have the level canopy w 4x as many tops. So, overall vertical growth came to a halt, immediately. No bolting/stretching of lower branches. All the nodes / branches from LST and supercropping are now bathed in light and are filling out and/or leveling out w the rest of the canopy. Looks like the girth of all those tops will be big enough to flip next wknd. From above, I can barely see through the canopy as the small leaves that were left have exploded out. Just what I had hoped for...

Now, with that said. I view this in veg as just another training technique. I am still unsure how to proceed in flower.

When, where, and how much to prune in flower?????

 

[Bud buster]

Usually I do it every week or 2 in veg and after stretch in flower day 21 and again at 45 days I also like to do it a week before chop to give everything light and avoid rot.

 

[irie-lion]

Edit:10/10/2010

I've been asked to link this PDF for those just starting this thread. It is an edit of the most key posts fr those wishing to cut through to the gist of this technique. It was compiled by Tuhder. Thanks friend.

Here is his post:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3885667&postcount=1381

and his attachment.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=79683&d=1285379097

can anyone re-upload that attachment somehow? would be much appreciated

 

[exploziv]

if you go to the post and click on the attachment directly it should work. I just checked it right now. just the direct link doesn't work.

 

[Bud buster]

The last page has some good info also