My girl is sick! Still zeroing in on a solution!

[GreenPassion420]

Hey guys, thanks for stopping by. I'm a noob (big surprise) and i'm not exactly sure whats going on with my girl. I'm thinking some kind of Cal/Mg deficiency, but im also thinking just simple nute burn. I'm no where near an expert and any advice whould be great! I've attached some images to help out.

The problem started off small with only a few light brown blotches and tiny brown tips and just progressed from there. I noticed it a few days after I started giving her a very light dose of Hesi PK 13/14 (.5ml per gallon). As far as my normal nutes go, i feed everyday and she gets approx. 12ml of Hesi Coco (bottle says 50ml per 10L, but i use U.S. gal so i rounded a bit) and 1tbsp of GH CaliMagic. All goes in a gallon of steam distilled water. I then PH it to around 5.0-6.0 She seemd to be going great and strong like i said, until i added pk 13/14. It might have just been a coincidence, but idk. I thought I was going quite light on the nutes, and maybe that's it, but that's why i'm here asking you fine people!

Thanks for any help guys, id greatly appreciate it!

 

[señorsloth]

the problem is those are two opposite problems, and their cures are opposite...mag def or pk tox...

12ml of Hesi Coco (bottle says 50ml per 10L, but i use U.S. gal so i rounded a bit)

issue number one would be the math here...it comes out to 20ml not 12ml a gallon being around 4 liters...now that changes things quite a bit...unfortunately i can't seem to find a spec of info about whats really in these nutrients...i mean on the surface they seem good, mixing organic and mineral nutes is the way to go IMO...but if you can't figure out what the numbers are besides the npk you can't figure out what your plants are missing, and apparently hesi nutes doesn't put this info online or i can't find it... if your magnesium is in your hesi coco, then, by giving them half the recommended dose (if you even trust factory recommended doses lol)you are giving them half the recommended magnesium...but then again they seem to have more than enough nitro...i mean if you add 2 ml of calmag then your nitrogen will be even higher...im not a fan of this nutrient profile...but if there is no mag at all in hesi coco then you will need to add... my nutrients are around 3-4 percent magnesium...that's exactly what pot needs but i don't know how many ml's that is and your whole dosage thing being metric...just makes it a pain to try and equate it to other ferts...
i'm not familiar with your ferts, i'm gonna say it looks like a magnesium deficiency...i would start by adding 1 gram of Epsom salt to each gallon of water...that should solve that...but by the color of your leaves i would say they are getting a bit too much nitrogen...so if there's mag in your nitrogen mix i wouldn't just add more nitrogen mix...it also makes me a little nervous about telling you to double up on the calmagic cause there's nitrogen in there and your hesi coco already seems to have to much of it in relation to pk and mag

if you are really only adding half a ml of pk then i seriously doubt thats your problem...but again i don't know the dosage...but that sounds super light...i mean i use a LOT of pk...you will find it's a million times easier to burn a plant by giving it too much nitrogen vs pk...

i have been looking up your nutrients and trying my best to figure out how much magnesium it even provides but i can't find a lick of info, i'm assuming you spent a lot of money on this stuff but without that info i don't think anybody can be of much help...also i have found that people generally never give their plants what the company recommends, people tend to find that more or less is the key and post results, but i'm not getting that from your brand, nobody seems to know about hesi...

personally i would say go to lucasformula.com read up, and buy some florabloom and flora micro...you can't go wrong with those, they have everything you need(not that yours don't,and everybody uses them, so everybody can help when you have issues... i just don't have a clue how to dose that hesi stuff with such limited product info...frankly seems like kind of a shady business but i'm no expert...beginners get the most potent pot as a rule when they Keep It Simple! it seems pretty obvious that you need more magnesium but i'm not gonna tell ya how to get that because i don't know whats in your nutes at the dosages your giving them or even as they come from the factory...id hate to confuse something and give you bad advice...maybe just that in this business if you are a beginner it's best to go with the most popular ferts, strains, and equipment if you can afford it because there will be that many more people here that can help you first hand.

 

[mr cheese]

Nit more info needed.. wht ec was u feedin befor u add pk and after addin pk? Are you handwatering or recirc?? Ect ect all play a role.. cheers..c

 

[SeaMaiden]

MAJOR Ca- (calcium deficiency).

As senorsloth has pointed out, it could be due to a few factors, not the least of which is that gigantic pH range. 5.0-6.0 looks like a small range to our eyes, but we're not living immersed in it. I'm going to assume you're growing in coco coir, you need to keep the pH much closer to the 6.0 range than the 5.0 range, 5.8-6.2 being where I personally like to keep it. Many others really do well keeping it pegged at a particular pH with 6.0 being the real sweet spot for most.

So, I'm going to post up some charts and graphics, I think these will help you get what Sir Sloth is talking about here when he's talking about stuff being locked out. The Mulders Mineral Interaction Chart is, for me at least, an excellent graphic reminder of what works with or against what. I'll also attach two other charts, one's a simple graphic that *lacks* the Ca+/- depictions, but the second is a flow chart that helps remind us of where we'll find Ca-. I've never once seen a Ca+, btw.

You need to know that Ca is immobile. That means that you will never be able to correct the spotting problems you're observing right now. I also feel that it's a bit late in the game to be considering correcting Ca problems, but the good news is this--Ca can be given via foliar feeding, and it's quite easily taken up/utilized by the plant if it's fed this way. So I will advise getting a Ca-only product, NOT a combination Ca/Mg product (I seriously hate those combo products). Calplex is a 3% solution that I prefer far less to BioLink's organic 6% Ca. Get what you can, that's the important thing here.

Along with the severe spotting and necrosis I see, I am also observing rather dark green to the leaves (N+) and purpled petioles, which can indicate *either* N- or P- (nitrogen or phosphorous deficiency, respectively), OR N or P uptake/utilization problems. Now, seeing those dark green leaves tends to make me want to rule out a nitrogen deficiency in any event, I think the plant is using all the N you're giving it. That leaves us with a P problem.

To make things even more complicated, along with what you've been feeding, you've been feeding at a very wide range of pH values, which could alone be the cause of the problem.

On to the charts and more musing on your issues...

You may be able to see by this chart ^^ which minerals interact with each other, and in which 'direction' (I can't explain the directions very well to you, as I barely understand it, it has to do with which reactions occur and in which direction; i.e. you can't make steel back out of rust).

^^ This is the leaf deficiency graphic that I like to use. HOWEVER, whoever made it left out Ca-, and that's a very common, almost too common issue that Cannabis growers deal with. This is why having the last flow chart is imperative, or you'll miss out on a big part of the diagnostic picture, IMO.

Very basic, simple visual flow chart ^^ that I have actually found to be almost indispensable in helping me resolve my own problems. It's very important to remember, especially when diagnosing problems such as a calcium deficiency, that WHERE on the plant the problem is occurring is integral to proper diagnosis.

 

[GreenPassion420]

Hey guys found this in the stickies, hope it helps us out a bit. And Seamaiden, just wondering if I can foilar feed this solution to in flower? she's got some pretty buds i dont wanna kill! thanks for all the help guys, its making me feel a bit more comfortable that she may pull through! Although i havnt taken any actions yet. Should i flush her out and start my nute schedule over?

How long has this problem been going on? - 2-3 Weeks
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) - No
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) - Hand watering with Coco and Smartpots
What STRAIN are you growing? Delicious Seeds Fruity Chronic Juice
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) - Feminized Seed
What is the age of your plants? - Going into 5th week of flower
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) - Since seed
How tall are the plants? - Aprrox. 22in
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? - Flower
What Technique are you using? - 12/12 From Seed
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) - Coco
What is the Water temperature? - Room
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? - Not sure, tho they still occasionally poke through the smartpot and their healthy white
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) - Hesi Nute Line
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* - Well according to the new info I have, I've been underfeeding at about 1/4 str her whole life. That is, Hesi Coco @ approx 12ml/gal. But My GH CaliMagic ive followed directions @ 1tsp/gal.
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless) - Daily, approx. 3-4 cups til ~20% runoff.
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless) - Every feeding.
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? - As soon as i saw hairs, i gave her one last veg feed and the next day a low dose of bloom.
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) - GH CaliMagic > Hesi Coco > Hesi PK > PH Adjust (by the way i had stated i adjust 5.0-6.0 but really i always adjust closer to 6.0. It probably varies ~.3 either way from feeding to feeding.
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using - No clue, working on purchasing said meter.
What is the pH of the "Tank"? - I use gallons of steam distilled water. Mix up batches every other day.
How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS? - Every mixing.
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
When was your last watering? - I use a General Hydroponics Liquid Test Kit. Last watering was this morning at lights on.
What is your water temps? - Room temp.
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) - Not sure of this question lol
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? - N/A
What size bulb are you using? - 2 x 125w CFL 'Lotus' Bulbs, 3 x 42w CFL
How old is the bulbs you are using? - NEW
What is the distance to the canopy? - ~1-2in
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? - High = 61%, Low = 53%
What is the canopy temperature? - High = 77F, Low = 61F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? - I use 2 x 140mm Axial fans as exhaust and 2 x 120mm Axial Fans as intake. Its plenty, just not sure of actual CFM at the moment. I have it written down somewhere, but cant find it.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? - I have a tiny desk fan circulating air around, it blows in-between two plants mid-canopy.
Is your water HARD or SOFT? - Bottled Steam Distilled Water.
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? - See above.
If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap? - N/A
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives? - N/A
Are you using water from a water softener? N/A
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? - I snipped a clone a few weeks ago about 2 weeks into flower.
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? - None
Are plant's infected with pest's? - Just a few gnats i'm trapping.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I'll foliar almost anything in flower, I hate that "don't spray anything on your plants when they're in flower!" myth. And yes, in this situation, I would foliar the Ca.

Varying .3 points, or whatever you want to call them, in coir growing is pretty good, though the 6.3 range is a bit high for coir.

Get another calcium product, use that. If you've been using the Calimagic at the recommended rate, then either the recommended rate is too low, or it's not playing well with the other minerals; i.e. magnesium, phosphorous, etc, etc.

Here's a link to my album, see if you can get those graphics larger.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=40002

 

[GreenPassion420]

Hey there seamiden, thanks for the quick responses, I was looking at my local hydro store and all they have is this, http://xtreme-gardening.com/calcarb/products/ it says is for foilar feeding. Would this work our should I keep looking?

 

[GreenPassion420]

Or maybe this would be better? Says 5.0% calcium.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Hey there seamiden, thanks for the quick responses, I was looking at my local hydro store and all they have is this, http://xtreme-gardening.com/calcarb/products/ it says is for foilar feeding. Would this work our should I keep looking?

Or maybe this would be better? Says 5.0% calcium.

I like the 2nd one better.

 

[GreenPassion420]

I like the 2nd one better.

Awesome, thank you so much seamaiden! Picked some up and gave her a light spray. So, assuming it works, how can I tell? Obviously the necrosis will stay, and she's done stretching, just swell stage, and it doesn't look like she's taking a huge toll from it all, I mean, she seems to still be swelling. Alas, I'm a noob amd she's my first lol.

 

[siftedunity]

tbh you should flush if you have any kind of problem like this. how do you know its not lock out? in which case you would need to flush. i wouldnt try to solve any problem like this by adding more nutrients. but thats my opinion.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Awesome, thank you so much seamaiden! Picked some up and gave her a light spray. So, assuming it works, how can I tell? Obviously the necrosis will stay, and she's done stretching, just swell stage, and it doesn't look like she's taking a huge toll from it all, I mean, she seems to still be swelling. Alas, I'm a noob amd she's my first lol.

Yes, the necrosis won't repair, but your goal is to keep her fattening up. I would foliar at quarter strength the recommended root feeding dose.

Sifted makes a point that many folks make, and it's actually rather similar to the fishkeeping world's mantra of water changes water changes water changes. However, I'm not sure that this is a simple overfertilization issue, and if you've been feeding at quarter strength all along, I'm not sure a flush would be the answer. However, if you do decide to flush, I personally have found that flushing anything other than soil with just water can cause problems UNLESS your media is truly quite saturated with fertilizer build-up (chemical salts). I like to give extremely light feedings instead of flushing, or will simply add molasses or malted barley extract (simple, unprocessed sugars, Sucanat is another one many folks like, I've also used panela/panocha, date and palm sugars) at low rates. With molasses a low rate for me is something like 1T/5gals.

 

[GreenPassion420]

Ok, makes sense, thanks! So should I continue feeding the Cal/Mg sup or stop while I'm foilar feeding? I skipped adding it this round. Have heard many good things about molasses, gotta look into it a bit more! Much thanks to all who have contributed this far!

 

[SeaMaiden]

Skip the Cal-Mag, get Epsom salt and keep it on hand. Once you start using Ca and Mg separately you'll be able to see what does what much more easily and quickly. Also, it's a LOT easier to get Mg into the plant than Ca, so in my opinion that, in combination with the fact that Ca levels should be at *least* double the Mg levels (IMO 3x is better) and you'll see how important it is to focus on Ca.

 

[siftedunity]

Yes, the necrosis won't repair, but your goal is to keep her fattening up. I would foliar at quarter strength the recommended root feeding dose.

Sifted makes a point that many folks make, and it's actually rather similar to the fishkeeping world's mantra of water changes water changes water changes. However, I'm not sure that this is a simple overfertilization issue, and if you've been feeding at quarter strength all along, I'm not sure a flush would be the answer. However, if you do decide to flush, I personally have found that flushing anything other than soil with just water can cause problems UNLESS your media is truly quite saturated with fertilizer build-up (chemical salts). I like to give extremely light feedings instead of flushing, or will simply add molasses or malted barley extract (simple, unprocessed sugars, Sucanat is another one many folks like, I've also used panela/panocha, date and palm sugars) at low rates. With molasses a low rate for me is something like 1T/5gals.

yup i grow in coco and i dont see how that can cause problems. how can ph'ed water cause ill effects?

ive had issues in the past, flushed with ph water, then once they need water again introduce nutrients again at half the dose. never had any issues with that.

deficiency can be caused by temperature and wrong ph too so it might not be an over feeding issue anyway.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I've seen plenty of temp-related (cold) lockouts and issues. I can talk about that! Hopefully GreenPassion has resolved the issue.

 

[GreenPassion420]

Still working on it! This is all,a learning process for me, my first few plants, but I'm hoping ill still do alright. She seems to be growing, and taking in the foilar feed. One, question, what should the foliar solution be Ph'ed to? Anything or just leave it? Should it still be in the 6.0 range?