Why don't I get it?

[Shafto]

Root rot.

One of the biggest themes I see on ICMag is how great DWC is for growing, especially how fast it is for vegetative growth, but the big downfall, that you can "lose your crop overnight".

I'm making this thread because I'd like to try and pinpoint the reason(s) for my accidental success in hydro, to try and help others that have issues.

For over 2 years now I've been running a DWC system. 3 weeks into my 13th DWC crop right now.

- I have never added any sterilizer or beneficial bacteria.
- I have not light proofed my res, the sides bow out and the lid doesn't completely cover it, light directly hits the water.
- Not consistently, but I have had res temps up around 75F for a day or two before correction on a few occasions.
- I don't clean anything, during a crop, or between them. I rinse off the hydroton and remove most of the old root debris, give the res a quick rinse, and that's it.
- There's always a few bits of leaf or stem floating in my res
- My outside air intake is not filtered

So, you'd think that I would have had my roots rotted out from underneath me 10 times over, but the fact is, I've never even seen root rot.

I don't proclaim at all to know why this is the case, though I do have some hunches.

What I want to do is figure out why I've had it so easy, so that others can enjoy such a care free system.

I think that one of the big deals is water pumps instead of air pumps. The roots seem to grow more spread out, and from what I can tell, they do a better job of aeration than an air pump. They also don't pump warm room air into your water making it harder to keep cool.

Another big one is to only provide the nutes you need in your res, nothing extra, no sugars, no zymes, no snake oils.

Something possibly overlooked is the water volume for a certain system. If you keep a fish in too small of a tank, you need to change the water more often, and the water gets nasty much faster. I think there's a very good chance that not enough water volume could be a contributing factor in hydro systems going sour.

And last what I can currently think of, is a simple system to control the water flow. Complex manifolds with many connections and possible nooks and crannies or dead spots could create areas for anaerobic bacteria to thrive. A single small pump and hose to each bucket with no valve or manifold, is preferable to one large pump with a manifold and valves to distribute flow.

I'm partially just guessing though. Maybe I've just been really lucky, but I would think I would have been exposed to pythium and other root illness by now.

Anybody else been having a consistently easy time in DWC? If we can pinpoint some things we're doing in common maybe we can start to nail down some good practices.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

You consistently operate at cooler water temps...

I believe the answer is that simple, but I do agree with everything else you've said.

Nimby (from OG days) had tons of success with the same dead simple DWC> Powerhead, Base nutes, clear reservoir, etc..

It all boils down to water temp in my opinion.. consistently over I'd say max 71ish F. and your going to run into problems. 68F being a good number to ensure nasties cant thrive..but I've pushed 71-72ish without issue.

That fact that you've not used sterilizing products might give you a bit of "buffer" zone in temperature as you've established good beneficial, etc.... but in my opinion any longer period of warmer water temps would lead to issues...

 

[Farm Hero]

I to have known folks to never dump their res and do all the "wrong" things and still pull off great harvests. Who knows, but I know people have a huge difference in water quality from the tap.

 

[Treetroit City]

I love coco.

 

[WelderDan]

I've got to agree that it's probably cooler temps. I always ran DWC and I'm pretty lazy and I've been known to just top off the res instead of changing it, or letting it get so low it's practically empty and just refilling it. I even quit bothering with the PPM meter and just bumped the ferts until I started to see tip burn, then backed off. Just simple DIY buckets that were not light proof and Wally World air pumps.

The one thing I was consistent on was lower temps. I only grew in the winter months because I didn't have any A/C in the grow space at the time. I never had any rot issues. Lots of algae, which I never saw as a problem, but never rot.

As far as I know, hight temps are the cause of root rot. Sloppy practices sure didn't cause it.

 

[Farm Hero]

Does your water source contain Chloramine?

 

[redbudduckfoot]

Farm Hero Does your water source contain Chloramine?

Exactly

RBDF

 

[ninjagaiden]

what would the presence or lack of Chloramine mean?

 

[Shafto]

Chloramine is similar to chlorine in that it will help sterilize the water. Chloramine however doesn't evaporate out of the water quickly as chlorine does.

I don't have any chloramine in my water supply though, I'm on a well.

Consistent temps around 65-70F is indeed the most important thing, but I still hear of people saying they never strayed from that area and still got hit. I hear people say pythium loves cool temps.

I just keep on using the smell test, and the root zone always smells great, never bad. Wish I knew exactly what it was...

 

[TheBioMaster]

Its not water temp, have ran temps well up into 75F with no problems. Water temp does not cause root rot, PATHOGENS cause root rot plain and simple.

What high water temps CAN do however is lower the amount of dissolved oxygen that the water can hold as this is dependent on the temp of the water. This can lead to conditions which favor pathogens and the type of biology that does not use oxygen.

The name of the game is PREVENTION folks, and the more your "conditions" are favorable the better the chances and outcome of your crop will be. PERIOD!

This means doing things like KEEPING YOUR TANKS CLEAN AND PRACTICING GOOD CLEANING HABITS!!!!

Take advantage of things you CAN control and everything you do adds up just like everything you DO NOT do adds up and will eventually tip the scale for conditions that favor pathogens instead of the biology that we want that needs O2 to live and prosper.

Do not do things or neglect duties just because nothing bad has happened yet.....how dumb is that???

Practice GOOD CLEANING HABITS and good things will follow and like I said the more little stuff you do and keep in check will lead to better and better crops all the way round!!!

It is never just ONE THING that usually does a grower in....it is always a accumulation of conditions that finally tips the scale.

Did you guys know that when the plant reaches a certain stress level that it will actually send out signals for nature and biology to come kill it??? Part of natural selection..as well as evolution.....

It is the source water that can "make or break" you.....not the water temp.

If your source water is out of balance in one way or another your going to have problems and if DWC is your method then root rot will most likely be your problem....IF you have problematic source water or source water with undesirable concentration levels and/or bacteria and pathogens.

 

[Weezard]

Here's a little more info.

Here's a little more info.

Several folks have opined that high water temperature is the cause of root rot
.
I have not found this to be the case.

I use DWC, 5g. buckets, PH 5.7, cheap air pump, ambient, and water temp of 82 degrees F.
Did 6, very sloppy harvests in a row with no sign nor scent of rot.

I have to conclude that it's the Chloramine keepin' it clean.

Fits with an earlier experiment that I tried with cuttings.
Did a side by side cloning test.
At 82 degrees F. avg. temp.
Half with my Chloramined tap water, half with rain water.
Tap water gals rooted and grew jus' fine with no sterilized cutting tools, no root-tone, gels, starters, etc.

I like to K.I.(Very). S S.
Just cut 'em with a rusty old paring knife and drop 'm in a beer bottle n wait a while.
The rain gals never popped a root but showed no rot.
Course I did change the water daily.

I let them sit for 10 days after the tap water gals rooted.
They looked shriveled and miserable.

Emptied the rain water.
Re-filled them beer bottles with tap water and got roots to start in 5 days.
But they looked so sickly that I composted them rather than waste watts.

To summarize, I have not had problems with high temperatures when using Chloramine treated tap water.

If my water did not come with Chloramine, I would add some to keep the bad bugs at bay.

A tuppence to da data pile.

Aloha,
Weezard

 

[arcinNsparkin2]

It is the source water that can "make or break" you.....not the water temp.

If your source water is out of balance in one way or another your going to have problems and if DWC is your method then root rot will most likely be your problem....IF you have problematic source water or source water with undesirable concentration levels and/or bacteria and pathogens.

So then is the answer to use RO water?

aNs

 

[Shafto]

Its not water temp, have ran temps well up into 75F with no problems. Water temp does not cause root rot, PATHOGENS cause root rot plain and simple.

What high water temps CAN do however is lower the amount of dissolved oxygen that the water can hold as this is dependent on the temp of the water. This can lead to conditions which favor pathogens and the type of biology that does not use oxygen.

The name of the game is PREVENTION folks, and the more your "conditions" are favorable the better the chances and outcome of your crop will be. PERIOD!

This means doing things like KEEPING YOUR TANKS CLEAN AND PRACTICING GOOD CLEANING HABITS!!!!

Take advantage of things you CAN control and everything you do adds up just like everything you DO NOT do adds up and will eventually tip the scale for conditions that favor pathogens instead of the biology that we want that needs O2 to live and prosper.

Do not do things or neglect duties just because nothing bad has happened yet.....how dumb is that???

Practice GOOD CLEANING HABITS and good things will follow and like I said the more little stuff you do and keep in check will lead to better and better crops all the way round!!!

It is never just ONE THING that usually does a grower in....it is always a accumulation of conditions that finally tips the scale.

Did you guys know that when the plant reaches a certain stress level that it will actually send out signals for nature and biology to come kill it??? Part of natural selection..as well as evolution.....

It is the source water that can "make or break" you.....not the water temp.

If your source water is out of balance in one way or another your going to have problems and if DWC is your method then root rot will most likely be your problem....IF you have problematic source water or source water with undesirable concentration levels and/or bacteria and pathogens.

Higher temp does indeed cause root rot. Not directly, but it does cause it, by lowering the dissolved oxygen in the water, which invites anaerobic bacteria.

Good cleaning habits are definitely not mandatory. I barely clean anything, as I mentioned in my first post. I barely clean my hydroton between grows, just a quick rinse. Never clean any hoses or the res... The hoses all look fine inside, no gunk, never has been.

Water volume for you situation I believe is a massively overlooked variable between systems. I like to use at least 20 gallons of water per 1K of light. I think you will have much less issue with this much water, as compared to 10 gallons per 1K of light, though that is complete speculation, I do believe it's a largely overlooked factor in root problems.

 

[Hydrolized]

Have to agree with you shafto... I read a university study showing that since optimum root growth and absorption temps are around 78F (hence why we heat our bubble cloners), that would mean if the root zone stays around that temp the roots will always growth fastest. The issue with that as you said, is the D.O. plummets quickly as temps go up. They got around this by using O2 gas to supersaturate the 78F solution to 200% capacity, actually making it a little more oxygenated than 100% saturated @ 65F....therefore taking away the anaerobic bacterias "home" while also creating the optimum root zone. They witnessed an average 30% increase in dry shoot weight in various C3 and C4 plants compared to the control 65F 100% D.O. and almost 100% increased compared to 78F 100% saturated solution.

When I can afford an oxygen cone and dissolved oxygen controller setup (around $4000)...I would like to test this on our beloved plants...if the results are repeatable we would be looking at adding a possible 60% increase in yield by switching to Oxygen injection in solution and CO2 injection into the air....thats a nice improvement.

Anyways back onto this thread topic...I also run a "dirty" res....quite a few of them actually....I use aquashield and FL+ along with base nutes and never have a problem with roots....my containers/reservoirs are not light tight to say the least and I never have had an algae/pythium problem, even when my res temps get into the high 70's. I run R.O. water and also after every harvest before putting in the new batch I just do a simple rinse/wipe down and throw a new mix in. Also agree with the solution amounts, I run 100 gallons for 12 plants under 2K, keeps things MUCH more stable.

 

[Ajunta Pall]

I would add that pathogens can and do aid in rot, but rot can happen without them. Rot is not a living thing, it occurs after tissue necrosis. Sure high temps and low dissolved oxygen greatly speed it up, especially if it becomes systemic. However, rot, can happen in cooler temps, less often of course. As long as you don't create a stagnant environment it will not bother you.

 

[Neo 420]

Not the root rot issue........

Let me tell you an old story ...

Back in the day when I ran dwc and rdwc I kept the cleanest of rez's, used RO water, Chiller, changed weekly, was completely on top of my game but after the second run I had root rot after root rot. Tried every product from bobs brew to greenhouse cleaner including sterilizing the rez. I could still harvest but potency and yield greatly suffered. (in hindsight I wonder if ewc would of helped.???). When tap was ran from beggining cycle,the root rot went bye bye....(hence the answer is yes.. Chloramine (some tap water) will keep root rot away)

 

[PetFlora]

My solution was to replace DWC with and outboard rez system. I use bulkhead fittings with shutoff valves, which makes cleaning and changing out rez a breeze.

Secondly, root health drives plant health, which drives yield. The best most efficient roots are those that develop using high pressure aero, but I can tell you from plenty of personal experience, hpa is very finicky. HOWEVER, through 4 grows I have learned quite a bit about roots. I have developed my DIY 21st Century Flood & Drain, which is as KISS as hydro gets, while developing very similar root structures.

I just harvested a plant grown in it. Here are a couple root shots. Note they are reddish due to lava rock medium, and/or possibly from hot chili juice that I used to kill a SM/aphid infestation. You can read up on it in my journal.

View attachment 176325

View attachment 176326

 

[farmari]

I've had some messed up DWC setups in the past... both SDWC and RDWC with water temps over 80F with lights on for weeks and weeks without root rot. Tap water, PH Down, and basic nutrients... no additives.

I guess I'm lucky in my tap water. It's a bit too alkaline but combining condensate water with the tap water helps that.

The only times I've ever had root rot were in small spots of newly developed seedlings/clones in neglected SDWC buckets that had too low water levels. (air stones helping water spray the roots) These were isolated cases and the plants always recovered. I did have a seedling die of stem rot once though from overly wet rockwool.

IMO it's important to have good water flow to keep the DO levels high and not have stagnant spots in the root zone, and no hot air bubbles in the root zone... use waterfalls or keep the air stones in the res for DO rather than air stones under the roots.

 

[St3ve]

I had a similar experience. I ran RDWC for about 15 runs and never got rot. I had a chiller on one system and no chiller on the other. Temps got up to around 80 and still never got rot.

I used 250ppm tap water so I'm sure that is what did it. I also had a few runs without adjusting the pH to see what it would do and I still grew fine bud with my pH hovering around 7.5-8 so go figure.. ?

 

[NIMBY]

Shafto--Your system is very similar to mine. Clear tubs with a dark lid to keep out direct light and a water pump (I use a powerhead--one in each tub, just as you proposed) to keep the water moving.

The powerhead has a venturi to add air into the mix and I use a long coil of air hose to quiet the noise. I also use weak nutes with no additives except Epson Salt for a Magnesium boost. I don't dump tubs during a grow, either. I feed once a week and then quit feeding for the last two weeks. That's it! Simple!!

This is an excellent thread with some great advice. I diverge with you and some of the others, though, about res size. I get great results in a 4 gallon tub. I used to use a different, 3 gallon tub!

But with my powerhead cranking at 160 gph, it means my tub is recycling 40 times per hour. Add the bubbles from the venturi and I've got some pretty oxygen-saturated water!

I've had pretty high temps and absolutely never had root rot or any water problems at all. Probably ten years now since I switched to powerheads. I was a big proponent of them at OG.

A simple way to lower tub temps is with a fan. I'm using a 45 degree angle piece coming out of my tub with a small computer fan blowing into it (if the fan is placed directly on top of the tub it will accumulate salts). Allow for the air to escape--tip the lid of the tub if needed.

The addition of the fan knocks off around 10 degrees in each tub. And it causes more evaporation which means more fresh water is added.

And how about a simple way to top up? A swamp cooler valve does it automatically! I run the 1/4" tube into a bucket of water set higher than the tubs and start a siphon. Super simple! A five gallon bucket of water lasts several days to a week.

Anyway, I agree with you and most everyone else. Problems are caused by a lack of oxygen in the water. I believe the strong current from your water pump is what's making everything so easy.