Is coco runoff really not worth checking?

[Hydrolized]

Is this a thread where you ask random questions about random things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about or why I started this thread?

Anyways, when I let mine dry out like a noob, the pH when way high. Once I learned to drench it every day, the pH says right at 5.8.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

if you let the coco dry out, does that raise or lower the pH in the coco?

raises the e c as the water dissipates and the salts crystallize...

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

try feeding twice a day make sure you get a good runoff. should help feeding rather then upping your feed

 

[astartes]

I've seen plenty of bags and bricks of coco where the media pH will actually flux upwards (alkaline) as the coco starts to break down in mid to mid-late flower as K+ ions release. Fwiw, I see this more commonly on larger plants (ie kept in media over a longer period) than smaller ones. To compensate, I simply drop my feed pH to the 5.5ish level until the runoff pH is back in check.

Ime, I see issues in coco when runoff is 0.4 EC higher than input and pH runoff gets outside the 5.6-6.3 range. I've found runoff pH at 6.0-6.1 and runoff 0.1-0.2 EC above input to be my sweet spot.

Check your runoff in coco, even if you think your plants are healthy. Keep a log while getting the plant into check of EC/pH input/output values, as well as size, general health comments, etc and you'll be amazed at the results. Plants will look and yield much better.

a.

 

[hazy]

if you let the coco dry out, does that raise or lower the pH in the coco?

PTB's answer was exactly right.
Allow me to add a bit. As the coco dries out and the nutes concentrate, (that's the raised ec and crystallizing salts PTB spoke of), Then you add more, these concentrate more when you let it dry out again, lowering pH. Because nutrients are acidic.(I have high pH water and my nutes lower it enough i don't need to add pH down) Low pH will cause cal and mag issues, etc.
Also any time nutes recrystallize they may re-form differently making nasty things that your plants don't need.
On ec and run-off, the picture is incomplete because you don't know how much of each nutrient is still in it. That's one good reason to get a bit of run-off to keep those flushed away.

Since you say your pH went high, it makes me think your water has stuff in it that buffers the pH back up after a while.

That said, the only reason I would ever bother checking the pH of my run-off in coco is if there were deficiencies/lockout issues showing in the plants. But if you are water with correctly pHed nute solution, watering every day on established plants, you should be good.

 

[inreplyavalon]

I tried for two weeks this round to fix my runoff PH which was at 7.0. My plants were only fed 5.7-6.0 feed and were all about 8 weeks old. I rarely check runoff but happened to and freaked a bit because it was so high. I was also see some burn from overfeeding. So i started to feed around 5.2 to try and lower the runoff PH. I did this for a week and it did not budge. I then lowered it to 5.0 for a week and it did not budge. The plants at this point had really lightened up and shown more deficiency than when i first noticed the problem.

So i said screw it and went back to feeding at 5.8 and the plants greened up and looked healthy again in a few days. Now on week 5-6 the runoff ph is still up around 7, the plants look great and are stacking calyxes. So in conclusion i do find that runoff EC gives a decent indication of your plants feeding needs/habits, but is very misleading to monitor runoff PH.

 

[~Shhh~]

Great post Flaps, to the OP I'm not sure about your predicament, but if your using canna coco they suggest, as another poster has said for pH, you should take a few samples of coco from the pot as run off readings are not accurate. The only difference between the tech posted on the other page and what Canna suggest is to drain the water from slurry and then test the water's pH and EC.

I would suggest that you try and get more run off than you currently are (say 35-40%) and then retest it to see if the results are any difference and to satisfy your curiosity.

How much do you water those 5 gals with?

 

[Scrappy-doo]

I tried for two weeks this round to fix my runoff PH which was at 7.0. My plants were only fed 5.7-6.0 feed and were all about 8 weeks old. I rarely check runoff but happened to and freaked a bit because it was so high. I was also see some burn from overfeeding. So i started to feed around 5.2 to try and lower the runoff PH. I did this for a week and it did not budge. I then lowered it to 5.0 for a week and it did not budge. The plants at this point had really lightened up and shown more deficiency than when i first noticed the problem.

So i said screw it and went back to feeding at 5.8 and the plants greened up and looked healthy again in a few days. Now on week 5-6 the runoff ph is still up around 7, the plants look great and are stacking calyxes. So in conclusion i do find that runoff EC gives a decent indication of your plants feeding needs/habits, but is very misleading to monitor runoff PH.

When I first started using coco I tried to ph the coco so the runoff was consistently 5.8 - 6.0. After about 2 hours of constantly putting in lower and lower ph I finally got the runoff to be in range. The next day I measured it again ant it was back to 7.0.

You ain't gonna get the ph runoff in check with coco.

Just make sure the coco stays wet so the salts don't crystallize and you should be all set.

 

[Hazyfontazy]

if you let the coco dry out, does that raise or lower the pH in the coco?

u should not let the coco dry out ,,its the first rule of coco club

 

[Arkady2300]

pourthruinfo.com the first pdf from the state college of North Carolina gives a great step by step procedure for taking accurate runnoff pH and EC readings.

Yeah the chemistry of evaporating water can do a number on your containerized plants. Jah bless and carry on.

 

[GreenClouds]

Sweet beans brothers.... i have been looking for info like this thanks.

 

[fLaPzZ]

I'm in the process of my first run with drippers. I've already hand watered the last two crops to get the feel for coco. I'm 5 weeks in with 12 ECSD's flowered at 10" and they look really good. They finished stretching at about 52 - 53"

Feeding has been three times a day with about 25 - 35% runoff to waste. EC going in has been 1.7 using half tap, half RO (giving me 0.2EC starting water), and coming out at about 1.9 - 2.0EC.

PH in at 5.8 - 6.1 coming out at 6.2 - 6.4 (only checked this a couple of times out of interest). Following the advice about the EC runoff from the article seems to be working so far so am going to stick with it as I have no deficiencies at all and they're starting to pack it on now.

I'm gonna drop the feed water to 1.5 going in in a day or two as I reckon the they will slow down a bit on eating now the stretch is totally over. Lookin good though so I'm pretty happy!

 

[Greeco]

http://www.bghydro.com/mmbgh/Others/Coco Infopaper.pdf

Page 4 of this pdf explains how to properly check for EC and PH in coco. Coco is a lot different then other mediums when it comes to testing and I think a lot of posters in this thread were unaware of this.

 

[Snow Crash]

The runoff from coco when using hydroponic nutrients contains what I call "relational data."

This is the kind of stuff that is good to track and record along with the health of the plant and the nutrients that we use so that from one grow to the next we can recognize patterns emerge and prevent issues before they are visible on the plant. If only for the sake of peace of mind the process takes all of 5 seconds and is in no shape or form confusing. More knowledge is always better than less.

The pH of the runoff is not very useful information to me. Typically, I find my runoff to be between 6.3pH and 6.8pH. This was especially noticible when using General Hydroponics pH down made from Phosphoric Acid, but also with organic acids like Fulvic and Cutting Edge Solutions Plant Amp. Over the last few grows pH has become less and less of a concern in my coco garden as I have come to see just how powerful the natural buffer of coco is. My only suggestion on the matter is to drop the Phosphoric Acid and start using a Nitric Acid, Citric Acid, or Fulvic Acid as the pH down for your solution if you need to control the levels. I allow my solution to drop as low as 5.0pH and have ever had an issue with the pH from the runoff when using the organic stuff, which I use to offset the increase from the silicate.

The EC of the runoff tells me quite a bit. When the environment is taken care of, and the nutrient program is dependable (CNS17 for me), then when the EC coming out of the planter starts to climb rapidly then that is an indication to me that the coco has a nice full charge of elements and is washing it out. Before the plant looks ill I can cut back my feed schedule, to say, 60% of what I had been using, and watch the runoff to see if it continues to climb or if it stabilizes.

One "rule" I tried to keep myself to was to have the runoff EC be within 30% of the input EC. So, if I was using a 1.5ec then the runoff could be 1.85ec before I worried. Generally I was getting about 20% runoff but when things got out of control I would collect an extra few hundred ml and test that to see if there was just a lot flushed out in the first liter of runoff. This is usually the case, so we must be careful not to react too quickly to a perceived issue if the plant is otherwise healthy. Sometimes an extra cup of runoff is all it takes.

Watch for patterns, learn the plant and the system, and keep good records. Over time this will help build a better conceptualization for what is in the media, and what ratios they are in, and how todays feed will impact the state of the coco over the next week. This helps protect the plant from over feeding and also helps guide the grower in understanding how much food the plant needs and when.

When reflecting on the data I have collected in a spreadsheet I can make graphs which make it easy to see when my feed level was dialed, when it was excessive, and when it was too slight. It becomes especially clear when combined with the data from more than one grow with the same setup and phenotypes but while trying to dial it in. Having a reliable nutrient program with a good ratio and a proper EC to begin with is always the goal. But... It doesn't mean we can't keep track of what is going in, what is coming out, and from grow to grow try to interpret the information and see what the results are.

The runoff data is not good for knee-jerk reactions. Watch for patterns over several days and just see what happens the first time around. Then, the second time, when you see the same thing happening you'll know just what to do and how to do it better with what you got.

 

[Greeco]

great post snow crash. I agree with what you say about testing the PH of coco. It is pretty resilient to changing. However the runoff EC is definitely worth checking.

My AC unit went out and was out of commission for two weeks in veg. temps got crazy high and I made the mistake of watering with my normal nutrient feed. I just tested my runoff which was 3.2EC. Scary shit! so I am flushing with a flushing agent and humic/fulvic acid. I'm aiming to get it back down to 2EC before feeding again.

 

[Wonderon]

"My only suggestion on the matter is to drop the Phosphoric Acid and start using a Nitric Acid, Citric Acid, or Fulvic Acid as the pH down for your solution if you need to control the levels."

I find that gh ph down allows my solutions to too much and too fast even when using ro. What would you recommend to control the ph better brand wise?

 

[TribalSeeds]

great post snow crash. I agree with what you say about testing the PH of coco. It is pretty resilient to changing. However the runoff EC is definitely worth checking.

My AC unit went out and was out of commission for two weeks in veg. temps got crazy high and I made the mistake of watering with my normal nutrient feed. I just tested my runoff which was 3.2EC. Scary shit! so I am flushing with a flushing agent and humic/fulvic acid. I'm aiming to get it back down to 2EC before feeding again.

Heres what I dont get about flushing agents, and using humics/fulvic in general when trying to flush to correct a problem. Dont humic/fulvics help the plant absorb the nutrients that are there? Ive noticed flushing agent contain them, so whats the deal?
I prefer using a light nutrient solution, but Im curious as to what other people think.

 

[Greeco]

Heres what I dont get about flushing agents, and using humics/fulvic in general when trying to flush to correct a problem. Dont humic/fulvics help the plant absorb the nutrients that are there? Ive noticed flushing agent contain them, so whats the deal?
I prefer using a light nutrient solution, but Im curious as to what other people think.

I didn't make that very clear sorry about that. I watered with only humic/fulvic acid at first along with some medium cleaners, h2o2 and hygrozyme to do some testing since the plants were looking unhealthy. The EC came back pretty damn high so with the next watering I will be flushing with a flushing agent aka "EDTA". The fulvic/humic acid will help the plant absorb the extra cations "positive ions" in the coco medium since coco can hold onto cations more then other soiless mediums. idk if this is the best approach but I know it will help the plant absorb some micros and cations since everything is locked out for the most part. I might have wanted to flush with a flushing agent first then use fulvic/humic after. But I wasn't sure what to expect. Next time I will reverse my process since it makes more since to flush, "eat" away the extra ions. Then use the humics to start absorbing extra cations. I hope my rambling made some since... lol. I should have started flushing a long time ago instead of giving them nutrients to fix the deficiencies. How stupid of me! Oh well for every mistake a new skill is learned.

 

[Snow Crash]

The thing about flushing is that we are not really going to remove much from the plant. Maybe some sugars, and a minimal amount of trace element, but due to the physiology of the plant it is impossible to think you're going to wash out elements in the leaves by rinsing the roots.

The concept here is to remove what is in the media and allow the plant to consume what it has remaining in its system until the end of flowering. Removing all the elements in the coco should actually take several days and shouldn't be as much of a single flush as a few days of clean water with a bit of extra runoff until the coco runs clean.

I don't think shocking the system with a pure water flush in the middle of a grow is a good answer to over feeding. I always use at least a diluted nutrient profile appropriate for the stage of life to rinse out excess elements and restore a balance to the system with the correct ratio.

From what I understand about Humic and Fulvic acid is that they use organic carbon molecules to facilitate the uptake of nutrition. This has seemed to have a stress reducing effect on my own plants and maybe, very maybe, the organic acids help the plant uptake the nutrition it needs even if the ratios in the media are a little out of tilt. I dunno, but it has worked well for me in coco as both a pH down and for the "calming" effect that I have experienced.

The product I use with hydroponic DTW coco for pH down is Humboldt Nutrients FlavorFul. I have had some success with TechnaFlora pH Down based on Nitric Acid, although the amount I had to use to combat the increase from Pro-Tekt was kind of obscene and I think it messed with the system in late bloom. With the FlavorFul I used to measure the pH after dosing but it became familiar enough to me that now I just use at least 2.5ml/gallon and up to 5ml/gallon every time. The base system tends to run just a touch over ideal, plus the Pro-Tekt at about 3ml/gallon, and just a small amount of FlavorFul is what I use to come down to around 5.4ish. The coco will buffer the solution and break down the weak bonds which will balance when it is used, so I have gone as low as 4.8pH and not had any issues, runoff is still 6.4pH every damn time.

Citric Acid crystals are organic also and they can be found in most hydro shops or in some online hydro stores. I haven't used them myself but the people who do use them tend to have a great deal of success. Mad Farmer... I think is the brand... They make a pH down that includes all sorts of things. Citric, Nitric, HydroChloric, Phosphoric... That might be a winner but I haven't tried it myself. I don't think it is very popular.

I think the use of Phosphoric based pH down is one of the hidden issues with Coco that doesn't get spoken about. We just don't think of it as being such an issue but with the propensity of coco to retain Phosphorus and the over use of the product in some cases... I think it all adds up to a very bad situation for a lot of growers who have better options and just didn't know any better. For myself it was an "aha!' moment realizing that in this kind of media the sort of product used to control the pH can have a major impact on how it performs. Once I went Fulvic I never felt the need to use anything else, but the citric Acid interests me. Maybe a 50/50 mixture of the two would be more stable?

 

[Greeco]

Great information Snow! Thanks

I wanted to comment on your humic/fulvic post. Once a state of melted water has occurred the acids will also provide more energy for plant cells. Plant cells use 30% of their energy to protect themselves but when this melted water state occurs the cells can utilize 100% of their energy. This happens when you have 0.005-0.009% Humic acid in your water. AND it protects your plants from in-taking metal pollutants that might be in your nutrient product. EX.. ADVANCED NUTRIENTS!! <---- crap

Another Source- http://www.teravita.com/Humates/Chapter2.htm

Also I wanted to point out in my post that I was going to try flushing with a flushing agent and I forgot that EDTA will form bonds with Ca causing lockouts. So I will not be doing this. I will give one more fresh water feed, test the runoff EC, then continue feeding again at a 50% feed. So around 1EC or so.